The Great Gatsby
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Proof Wilson Saw Gatsby Kill Myrtle
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So try itself. Go out on a highway and see if you can identify gender at dusk for cars travelling horizontally across your vision that are travelling 30 mph, 45 feet away.

It wasn't broad daylight, but there was plenty of light. That time of year at that latitude it doesn't get dark until after 9PM. The street lights weren't even on.
Geoffrey wrote: "So try itself. Go out on a highway and see if you can identify gender at dusk for cars travelling horizontally across your vision that are travelling 30 mph, 45 feet away."
It's 35 or 45 feet, depending on which side of the road the garage is situated. We don't know, but either way I can do it easily.
Remember, the yellow car was an open roadster, the equivalent of a convertible. Gatsby would not be wearing a hat because it would blow off. Daisy likely wore a hat tied down with a scarf to protect her hair, as was the norm.
In any event, all these witnesses were decisive about gender. No hesitation or waffling. On what grounds do we second-guess unbiased, credible, sworn eyewitness testimony? After all, they were there.

As for the 4 people who claimed it was a male driving, name them. The likelihood of Daisy wearing a hat is only conjecture on your part. If she looked anthing like Mia Farrow, her hair would be cut short. I don´t recall any description as to her hairstyle, but I don´t see her with long hair. There was no norm for women drivers in the 20`s as it wasn´t normal for women to drive. Nor for that matter well to do black people.
As it was so very unusual for women to drive, it would be expected the stereotypical response as to a male driving. Again, show us your quotes as to the men saying it was a male driver.


Also keep in mind there was enough family drama that Wilson and Matthew had their eyes on Myrtle, not the car, by the time she got hit, the roadster would have passed by. And neither says there was a second party in the car? Really now? Great witnesses.

Poor Myrtle. I did like her. She and Mr. Gatz were the only two likeable characters in the entire novel.

How many times do I have to name them? Here, read for yourself, from an earlier post:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Four witnesses saw the yellow car either immediately before or a few minutes after it hit Myrtle: a) the driver who was coming from the opposite direction and was the first to reach the body, b) Michaelis and c) Wilson, both of whom could have been 30 feet away and d) the "negro" who arrived from around the bend after seeing the yellow car blazing past at 50-60 mph.
When the cop says, "Son-ov-a-bitch didn't even stopus car," he's quoting all the available witnesses who by now he's surveyed and all of whom apparently agreed it was a man driving and the car didn't stop.
The cop didn't see the crash, but his word is a professional opinion based on the credibility of the witnesses he's interviewed. Cops are trained to get their facts straight.
More to the point, Fitzgerald went to a lot of trouble to establish eyewitness testimony that contradicts Gatsby. Why would he do this if not to suggest Gatsby was lying? Otherwise, it's a needless, time-wasting complication. If you ignore this testimony you have to have a plausible reason. On what basis do you second-guess or ignore what the author has put on the page?
As to the degree of darkness, you're splitting hairs. The witnesses were certain it was a male driving. If the cop thought it was too dark to trust their testimony, he'd have said something. If it's good enough for the cop it's good enough for me. And it was certainly good enough for the judge at the inquest because there was nothing in the news report casting doubt on testimony because of poor light.

You have in previous posts criticized other posters for not citing passages in the book itself to back up their arguments. Now you are guilty of the same. Please, I am batting for you, but please be reasonable.

I feel like I've done this a dozen times...
The car crash is described by Nick in four disconnected segments. First, Nick gives a synopsis of Michaelis' testimony at the inquest. (Ch. VII, pp. 136-7):
[Nick narrating]
The young Greek, Michaelis, who ran the coffee joint beside the ashheaps was the principal witness at the inquest. He had slept through the heat until after five, when he strolled over to the garage, and found George Wilson sick in his office--really sick, pale as his own pale hair and shaking all over. Michaelis advised him to go to bed, but Wilson refused, saying that he'd miss a lot of business if he did. While his neighbor was trying to persuade him a violent racket broke out overhead.
"I've got my wife locked in up there," explained Wilson calmly. "She's going to stay there till the day after to-morrow, and then we're going to move away."
...So naturally Michaelis tried to find out what had happened, but Wilson wouldn't say a word--instead he began to throw curious, suspicious glances at his visitor and ask him what he'd been doing at certain times on certain days.
...When he came outside again, a little after seven, he was reminded of the conversation because he heard Mrs. Wilson's voice, loud and scolding, down-stairs in the garage. "Beat me!" he heard her cry. "Throw me down and beat me, you dirty little coward!"
A moment later she rushed out into the dusk, waving her hands and shouting--before he could move from his door the business was over.
The "death car" as the newspapers called it, didn't stop; it came out of the gathering darkness, wavered tragically for a moment, and then disappeared around the next bend. Michaelis wasn’t even sure of its color—he told the first policeman that it was light green. ...The other car, the one going toward New York, came to rest a hundred yards beyond, and its driver hurried back to where Myrtle Wilson, her life violently extinguished , knelt in the road and mingled her thick dark blood with the dust.
Michaelis and this man reached her first.. .
In the second segment, Nick gives his own eyewitness account of the scene after he, Tom and Jordan arrive in the blue coupe (pp. 137-40.):
[Nick narrating] We saw the three or four automobiles and the crowd when we were still some distance away. "Wreck!" said Tom. "That's good. Wilson'll have some business.
...then I saw Wilson standing on the raised threshold of his office, swaying back and forth and holding to the doorposts with both hands.
[Tom, addressing the cop] "What happened? Thats' what I want to know."
"Auto hit her. Ins'antly killed.
"Instantly killed," repeated Tom, staring.
"She ran out ina road. Son-of-a bitch didn't even stopus car."
"There was two cars," said Michaelis, "one comin', one goin', see?"
"Going where?" asked the policeman keenly.
"One goin' each way. Well, she” –his hand rose toward the blankets but stopped half way and fell to his side—“she ran out there an’ the one comin' from N'York knock right into her, goin' thirty or forty miles an hour."
[Nick, narrating] ...A pale well-dressed negro stepped near. "It was a yellow car," he said, "big yellow car. New."
"See the accident?" asked the policeman.
"No, but the car passed me down the road, going faster'n forty. Going fifty, sixty."
“Come here and let’s have your name. Look out now. I want to get his name.”
Some words of this conversation must have reached Wilson, swaying in the office door, for suddenly a new theme found voice among his gasping cries: "You don't have to tell me what kind of car it was! I know what kind of car it was!"
Watching Tom, I saw the wad of muscle back of his shoulder tighten under his coat. [Remember, two hours earlier Wilson had seen Tom behind the wheel of the yellow roadster, when Tom had jokingly said he had just bought it.] He walked quickly over to Wilson and, standing in front of him, seized him firmly by the upper arms.
"You've got to pull yourself together," he said with soothing gruffness."
Wilson's eyes fell upon Tom; he started up on his tiptoes and then would have collapsed to his knees had not Tom held him upright.
"Listen," said Tom, shaking him a little. "I just got here a minute ago, from New York. I was bringing you that coupe we've been talking about. That yellow car I was driving this afternoon wasn't mine--do you hear? I haven't seen it all afternoon."
[Tom, addressing the cop] "I'm a friend of his." Tom turned his head but kept his hands firm on Wilson's body. "He says he knows the car that did it. ...It was a yellow car."
..."And wat color's your car?"
"It's a blue car, a coupe."
"We've come straight from New York," I [Nick] said.
In the third segment, Nick is waiting for a taxi in the Buchanan's garden when he discovers Gatsby lurking in the bushes. (pp. 142-3)
"What are you doing here?" I inquired.
"Just standing here, old sport."
Somehow, that seemed a despicable occupation. For all I knew he was going to rob the house in a moment; I wouldn't have been surprised to see sinister faces, the faces of "Woflsheim's people," behind him in the dark shrubbery.
"Did you see any trouble on the road?" he asked after a minute.
"Yes."
He hesitated.
"Was she killed?"
"Yes."
..."I got to West Egg by a side road," he went on, "and left the car in my garage. I don't think anybody saw us, but of course I can't be sure."
I disliked him so much by this time that I didn't find it necessary to tell him he was wrong.
"Who was the woman?" he inquired.
"Her name was Wilson. Her husband owns the garage. How the devil did it happen?"
"Well, I tried to swing the wheel--" He broke off, and suddenly I guess at the truth.
"Was Daisy driving?"
"Yes," he said after a moment, "but of course I'll say I was."...[Gatsby goes on to recount his version.]
In the fourth segment--after an interlude where Gatsby and Nick look for cigarettes and Gatsby opens up to him about his personal history--Nick recounts what can only be more of Michaelis' testimony at the inquest mingled with snippets from the news (Ch. VIII, pp. 156-60)
Until long after midnight a changing crowd lapped up against the front of the garage, while George Wilson rocked himself back and forth on the couch inside. ...Still later, Michaelis had to ask the last stranger to wait there fifteen minutes longer, while he went back to his own place and made a pot of coffee. after that, he stayed there alone with Wilson until dawn.George Wilson's words show that he had no doubt who killed his wife. He was physically and emotionally drained, but adrenalin kept him going. He had the presence of mind to get and load a gun, spend three hours hiking back and forth between East Egg and West Egg in search of the owner of the yellow car and confront and interrogate Tom Buchanan at his residence.
About three o'clock the quality of Wilson's incoherent muttering changed--he grew quieter and began to talk about the yellow car. He announced that he had a way of finding out whom the yellow car belonged to, and then he blurted out that a couple of months ago his wife had come from the city with her face bruised and her nose swollen.
..."Then he killed her," said Wilson. His mouth dropped open suddenly.
"Who did?"
"I have a way of finding out."
"You're morbid, George," said his friend. "This has been a strain to you and you don't know what you're saying. You'd better try and sit quiet till morning."
"He murdered her."
"It was an accident, George."
Wilson shook his head. His eyes narrowed and his mouth widened slightly with the ghost of a superior "Hm!"
..."It was the man in that car. She ran out to meet him and he wouldn't stop."
Michaelis had seen this too, but it hadn't occurred to him that there was any special significance to it.
...By half-past two he was in West Egg, where he asked someone the way to Gatsby's house. So by that time he knew Gatsby's name. [Later we learn it is Tom who provided it, at gunpoint.]
According to the facts laid out by Nick above:
A. Wilson and Michaelis were closely focused on Myrtle at the time of the accident because of the “violent racket” she made upstairs, followed by the Wilson’s loud argument downstairs in the garage immediately prior to her dash into the street.
B. Statements by Wilson and Michaelis to the policeman attest that they saw the yellow car crash into Myrtle: Wilson’s “You don’t have to tell me what kind of car it was! I know what kind of car it was!” and Michaelis’ “There was two cars, one comin’, one goin’, see?”
C. The policeman’s references to gender (“son-of-a-bitch” and “stopus”) were male. The novelty of a woman behind the wheel would have warranted some statement to that effect.
D. Michaelis wasn’t sure of the car’s color, saying it was “light green,” which is relatively close to the cream color people referred to colloquially as “yellow.” Perhaps Michaelis is slightly color blind, but whatever name is assigned to the color, it was Gatsby’s roadster by his own admission.
In summary, Daisy was wearing white, making her easy to spot. Myrtle would have stopped short if she saw a woman at the wheel of the yellow car instead of Tom. It would have been highly unusual for a woman to be driving, not to mention out of character for Daisy, who was used to being chauffeured. Not one eye-witness said the driver of the death car was a woman. Only Gatsby makes this assertion, and Gatsby has selfish motives for making it. Gatsby also said he threw on the brake, a statement disputed by the witnesses.
For the reader to believe Gatsby, he/she must suspend both reason and logic, as Nick did. And Nick’s admiration for Gatsby is well-established. Gatsby lied about his name, his family history and his sources of wealth and he deceives people by selling them fraudulent securities. What is the reader’s excuse for accepting the word of a criminal who lies for a living over the testimony of two hardworking, honest, respected businessmen?

There is nothing in the book that hints that Daisy enjoyed being chauffeured by car. Yes, people waited on her hand and foot, but you´re assuming too much about driving.
There is considerable difference between green and yellow, created by dusk.
Of course the cop is going to refer to the driver as a man. That was almost a natural assumption in the 1920`s. Women simply didn´t drive, nor did they smoke. Both were highly unusual activities for the fairer sex.
And let us refer back to the newspaper account."^The death car^ came out of the gathering darkness......and then disappeared around the next bend...."
And as for the speed of the vehicle when Myrtle was struck, again I refer to the exact words of our star witness.Michaelis "the one from New York....going 30 or 40 miles an hour. " So here we have more than 30 mph. Had it only been 30 he wouldn´t have added the 40. So it was more than 30 and even possibly 40 mph in the "gathering darkness" which the newspaper had it.
Nick may be somewhat naive, but he clearly recognizes Jay´s lies about gallivanting about Europe and buying up precious gems. Most of the people at Jay´s gala suspect he is other than what he pretends as he can´t lie well, yet Nick believes Jay when he tells him about the hit and run. Why do you think he yells that Jay was better than all of them after Jays death? Had Jay killed Myrtle, do you think that Nick is so morally challenged that he would say that?
As for lies, Daisy lies by omission as she never told Tom she had an earlier love of her life, so we have a second liar. And Tom is a liar as he beats women and thinks it trivial. That´s the lie when one diminishes one´s moral turpitude. So, Jay isn´t the only liar in the book. It`s just that his are so much more blatantly so.

All evidence to the contrary (Ch. V...)
Under the dripping bare lilac-trees a large open car was coming up the drive. It stopped. Daisy's face, tipped sideways beneath a three-cornered lavender hat, looked out at me with a bright ecstatic smile.(The occasion being Daisy's rendezvous with Gatsby at Nick's bungalow.)
"Are you in love with me," she said low in my ear, "or why did I have to come alone?"
"That's the secret of Castle Rackrent. Tell your chauffeur to go far away and spend an hour."
"Come back in an hour, Ferdie." Then in a grave murmur: "His name is Ferdie."
"Does the gasoline affect his nose?"
"I don't think so," she said innocently. "Why?"
The only time in the book--other than in Gatsby's uncorroborated allegation--that Daisy is shown driving is when she and Gatsby are dating five years earlier. Once comfortably ensconced in an uber wealthy marriage, it would not make sense for Daisy to drive from a liability standpoint. (In case of an accident.)
"Jay isn´t the only liar in the book. It`s just that his are so much more blatantly so."
In selling fraudulent bonds, Jay lies professionally, with intent to do harm. No one else in the book, other than cohort in crime Wolfsheim, comes close to this level of deceit.

You've danced all around my basic premise and failed to address it, said premise being: George Wilson saw the collision and went after the person behind the wheel.
Do you think that if Wilson had seen a woman behind the wheel he'd have gone looking for a man? Of course not. George never showed the slightest hesitation nor indication he thought the driver was female.
Nor did Michaelis infer that the driver was female. He did not object or express doubt as to the driver's gender when Wilson began ranting about "he" and "him." So Michaelis must have agreed.
These two are the premier witnesses whose eyes had to have been glued to Myrtle at the moment of the collision for the reason mentioned above--that Myrtle dashed into the street in the heat of an argument with George.
How can you seriously take a lying criminal's word over the word of two hardworking, honest, upstanding citizens?

Yes, of course. Criminals do not have an exclusive license to fabricate or prevaricate, as Donald Trump so aptly proves, time after time. (But then, do we know for sure he isn't a criminal?)

To me, Nick is supposed to mirror the general public, most of whom were at the time (during the Twenties) morally untethered--in Gertrude Stein's words, a "Lost Generation"-- reeling in the aftermath of World War I (similar to what happened after WWII and Vietnam.) Nick's lack of a strong moral code would have made him poor officer material in the military. He says he "reserves all judgment" (with the sole exception of Jay Gatsby) which could be another way of saying he was uncertain about his moral values. Nick could reflect Fitzgerald's own immature moral uncertainty.
It is a character-revealing moment on the steps in Gatsby's garden when Nick yells, "They're a rotten crowd. You're better than the whole bunch put together." It is an expression of sympathy toward Gatsby, who's just been exposed a criminal by Tom and rejected by Daisy. Instead of being concerned about Gatsby's criminality, Nick is concerned about his welfare, advising him to get out of town to avoid questioning.
Nick's judgment, or lack of it when it comes to Gatsby, is so warped that he's put Myrtle's death out of mind. A woman's life has been violently extinguished just a few hours ago, and all Nick can do is worry about Gatsby's welfare and hurt feelings. Nick's lack of compassion for Myrtle is confounding; his lack of judgment bordering on bizarre.
Why portray Nick in this way? It spotlights the corrupt and distorted social mores of the period, a main theme of the novel.


Hemingway, D.H. Lawrence and Ezra Pound may be in the running, in terms of that Post WWI era.
But you have to give Fitzgerald credit for sensing that America, including himself (exemplified in Nick) had gone corrupt.
You raise an interesting point. Where are the moralist writers of today? Egad, with junk like 50 Shades (of which I read only the first page), we need a Ralph Emerson, Joseph Conrad or Leo Tolstoy to give us some perspective.
The last film that I recall delving seriously into the realm of moral integrity was A Few Good Men. Character, moral integrity, is a topic seldom addressed in the arts except in an oblique way, yet it pervades society--police-involved shootings, JFK, Bill Clinton, Bernard Madoff, Michaell Flynn, etc., etc.



I'm thinking in broader terms. Hemingway, in his copycat novel, The Sun Also Rises, had Jake Barnes ruminate twice over a social transaction-exchange value system and again on disillusionment over his Catholicism, a faith-based value system. In the end, Jake redemptively rejects Brett, suggesting he's learned from his mistakes. Nick, on the other hand and as you suggest, remains noncommittal. He's not learned a thing except to swear off involvement in other people's private lives.
In his memoirA Movable Feast, Hemingway observes and comments upon Gertrude Stein and Ezra Pound and their social bubble of artists, writers and groupies, documenting his curiosity about the Left Bank liberal lifestyle during the time he wrote TSAR. Hem was, yes, much stronger and more rounded than Fitzgerald. I suspect war zone trauma will do that to a person.
By comparison, Fitz was a child, but Hemingway, through Jake, shows he wrestled with morality.
Beyond what Hemingway describes in his memoir, which makes him seem pretty loose, I don't know much about Ezra Pound other than Wikipedia's bio, which reveals his Nazi sympathizing. He sounds like an egomaniac. Probably toxic to be around. Certainly not a good role model.

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Here is the sequence of events leading to the conclusion that Wilson saw who killed Myrtle and shot the man he saw do it:
a) A couple of hours before the crash, Wilson had put gas in the yellow death car, then driven by Tom Buchanan, who joked about selling him the car. (Ch. VII, p.126)
b) As testified by Wilson's neighbor, Michaelis, at the inquest, Wilson and Myrtle were in the throes of a heated argument when she ran out of the garage into the street. It is hardly conceivable his eyes would not have been locked on her at the instant of the crash. . "Beat me... Throw me down and beat me, you dirty little coward!" were the last words Myrtle spoke just before running from the garage. (Ch. VII, p.136) Michaelis saw this as well. It is hardly conceivable that either man would not have been watching her intently.
c) Minutes later, Tom grabs the incoherent grieving Wilson, shakes him, and tells him the yellow car he was driving earlier wasn't his. With Wilson still in his grip, Tom informs the police officer that Wilson "knows the car that did it. ...a yellow car." (Ch. VII, p. 140)
d) About 3AM, Wilson announces to Michaelis that he had a way of finding out to whom the yellow car belonged. (Ch. VIII, p. 156)
e) Minutes later, Wilson concludes that the driver was Myrtle's lover, who deliberately ran her down, saying, "He murdered her. ...She ran out to meet him and he wouldn't stop." (Ch. VIII, p. 158.)
Just hours before the accident, Wilson had serviced the yellow car with Tom sitting at the wheel, who joked about selling it to him. Hours later at the scene of the accident, Tom reminded Wilson the yellow car wasn't his. Wilson had also doubtlessly seen Gatsby driving the distinctive yellow roadster throughout the summer when he stopped for gas. The yellow Rolls was therefore very familiar to Wilson, who saw the car crash into Myrtle, then speed away. He did not know the name of the driver, but he had seen it was a man, in his mind probably the same one Myrtle was having an affair with. And he knew Tom Buchanan could provide the name of the killer and where he could be found.
Though he does it in a roundabout way, narrator Nick Carraway clearly reveals that both Michaelis and George Wilson saw Jay Gatsby run over Myrtle. Wilson just didn't know his name until he showed up at Tom's mansion later that day with a gun at the ready. He was wrong about Gatsby screwing his wife. But that doesn't matter because he was screwing someone else's. So it was domestic retribution by proxy.
So why, if Nick knew all this, did he conjure up the fantasy around 9:30 PM in conversation with Gatsby in the Buchanan's garden that Daisy was driving? The answer is that he did not know, even though, as a narrator, he used information from the inquest to describe the accident scene. None of this conflicting testimony gets revealed to Nick (as a character) until days later at the inquest, but the reader must put this minor time warp and point-of-view violation out of mind to keep the story moving.
Why doesn't the reader get it? Because of the convoluted manner in which these crucial facts are revealed and because of Nick's intense bias in favor of Gatsby', as expressed on page 48: These are not the words of a lovestruck girl for her favorite rock star; they were spoken by Nick Carraway on first meeting Jay Gatsby.
Nick's failure to hold Gatsby accountable for Myrtle's death is entirely consistent with a lover whose judgment is impaired by emotional attachment. A prosecutor would rip Nick apart on the witness stand. The challenge for the reader is to see through Nick's bias and get to the truth about Gatsby. It is easy to lose sight of the fact that Nick is not just a narrator; he is a character in the story who is emotionally entangled with antihero Jay Gatsby, who uses Nick to gain access to Daisy and who tries three times to recruit him into his illicit bond scam.
Despite his transparent guile and glimpses throughout the novel into the shady side of Gatsby's character, Nick is devoted to the very end, taking the naive, uncritical reader along for the ride, like a motorcycle sidecar.