Too Like the Lightning [June 2017]

[Bram]

Yeah, the writing is quite confusing. I'm a non-native english speaker (although I believe my english is sufficient for this) and I've never read Voltaire or any of the others (although this book is really making me want to read me some Voltaire).

I find that I have to keep reminding myself that the "reader" that Mycroft addresses isn't ME. He's writing for some fictional reader centuries on from his perspective. Whereas, I am a few 100 years in the past from him.

I do think that the writing is overly complex and for personally it doesn't make it better. I'm also definitly no fan of the society that's being painted with its overly dramatic flair and complex stand on gender.

[Gelisvb]

I think that I need to concentrate solely on this and not late at night. I I'll get to it as soon as I have a little more time

[Seán]

Yeah, Mycroft's reader is coming from a different perspective from both him and us, so there's definitely that to bear in mind.

While I think of it, I had a fairly bonkers theory that I'm just going to lay down here, just in case it actually happens to be the case and I have some evidence :)

This is completely spoilery up to about Chapter 25, so please wait until then before clicking. I'm using the information I've got at this point and speculating on the direction of the series as a whole, so definitely stay away until you're at that point. I just had this thought on the bus into work and need to put it down before forgetting it:

(view spoiler)[Mycroft wrote out this history himself and had Bridger miracle it to become reality. Mycroft is a servicer and has committed some heinous crimes, and after stumbling across Bridger and his power he took to writing out an alternate history where Mycroft himself is the protagonist and can live out all his fantasies. Once his books were miracled and Mycroft's reality became real, he killed/imprisoned Bridger, and it is from this perspective that he is narrating his story to his audience.

I'm thinking that Palmer is pretty closely following Wolfe's Book of the New Sun and Severian's ascent in that, but pushing it in a more extreme direction. The fact that both Severian and Mycroft are both torturers (it's pretty strongly implied that Mycroft tortured the Emperor himself) is not coincidental, and I think this is the strongest indication that the characters are thematically linked.

So yeah, a bit bonkers and not at all likely, but just something I thought of that I wanted to throw down before knowing how things play out. Plus I'm enjoying thinking and writing all of this, and anything that links into BotNS gets me overly excited :) (hide spoiler)]

[Bram]

Dammit Sean! Now I have to rush to chapter 25 to satisfy my curiosity of clicking your spoiler tag! I'm only at 12 !

[Seán]

Bram wrote: "Dammit Sean! Now I have to rush to chapter 25 to satisfy my curiosity of clicking your spoiler tag! I'm only at 12 !"

Yeah I'm sorry to tempt but I had to type it out to make sense! And it still doesn't fully, but oh well! Like I said, I'm having a lot of fun thinking and theorizing with this book.

[Bram]

Chapter 16 was actually very nice, fast-paced and full of weirdness. Of course I didn't understand half of what happened, but it was quite nice nonetheless.

I do have the feeling that there is stuff going on that is not bein said or deliberately glanced over by the author, which makes it all quite confusing. As such, I'm taking it at face value and find myself thoroughly confused with a lot that's going on. I'm relying on the author to get me out of the mess she's creating because otherwise I'm afraid this is going to get a poor rating.

[Seán]

Just finished up this morning - I'll get my review up at some point today or tomorrow, when I've proper time to sit and type.

It's looking like a 4-star from me, but with the caveat that I have an extreme bias towards this style of writing and world-building. It's not a book I would easily recommend - and I don't mean that in a snobby way! I just think that the reasons I enjoyed it so much are directly related to books which are pretty specific to me. But I do think there's a good reward for putting in the time and effort, so long as the hook of the world catches you.

[Bram]

Warning: Long post ahead with spoilers for chapter 20 through 24.

Chapter 20: (view spoiler)[

“A Servicer!” Carlyle repeated. “Servicers are supposed to be … not … not…” He turned on me, more comfortable when he could point a finger. “You! You tortured seventeen people to death! You videoed yourself vivisecting Mercer Mardi! You crucified your foster ba’pa! You dismembered a thirteen-year-old child and left them a limbless torso to freeze to death in the Arctic! Ibis Mardi was in love with you, and you beat them until they begged for death, then raped them, and cooked and ate their arms and legs while they were still alive!

This revelation made the entire character of Mycroft Canner immediately more interesting by a landslide. It puts a completely different light on his persona. Consider my interest piqued. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 22: (view spoiler)[I also very much enjoyed the later discussions between Carlyle and Bridger on this topic. It's more of a philosophical question this way where both sides of the argument are personified in Carlyle & Bridger. I do feel that there's a vital part missing from this conversation. When Bridger says " He's not like this any more, he won't do that now" there is the baffling obvious omission of WHY Bridger believes this to be a fact. The same omission occurs when Thisbe & Ockam defend Mycroft earlier in Thisbe's room. What are they basing this trust on? Is it purely the fact that he was admitted into the Servicers program and therefor someone high up must be convinced that this was safe? I can't really fathom that someone as strict as Ockam would take that at face value. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 24: (view spoiler)[After the revelation in chapter 20, where we learn about Mycrofts past, I'm constantly wondering, where does Mycroft stand? What made him the extreme pacificist that he is now? Would I be correct in assuming that the difference in persona I found earlier (between narrator and actor) can be explained by this past and that the actor he plays in this story is just that, an act ? Did he truly rehabilitate ? Is he truly doing penance? Because throughout the entirety of chapter 20 through 23, we learn nothing of his own motives or his state of mind. He says he has a debt to pay, but shows no remorce, as if he would happily do it again.

Then, at last, in chapter 24 we finally get a glimpse:

His hand reached up my shirt, his nails tracing paths of fire across my chest. «Let’s finish it,» he invited. «Seventeen was never a good number.»
It would have been easier to drive a dagger through my heart than answer. «I can’t. You finish, please. Finish alone.»
He seized my throat. His calluses had changed again, some new labor or game making them thicker on the edges. «Who did this to you?»
«No.»
«Tell me!»
As too-tender Carlyle expresses anger sideways by weeping, so Saladin’s sadness manifests sideways in snarls and lust for blood. «Someone did this to you!»
«No.»
«Tell me!»

But again we are left to wonder to the rest, to the real reason behind his transformation. We do get to see that there is still a part of the monster in him though.

Then there's this bit, that hints that there was a greater purpose to their killing spree, and that Mycroft being captured was actually part of the plan. Even his execution was part of the plan. What was their end goal?

«We had everything we wanted! They were going to execute you. Even the Cousins were screaming for your blood. The whole world was going to dirty its hands, and you signed yourself away to MΑSON. Someone made you do it, and left this shell of you behind!»

Also, the fact that 'someone' defanged Mycroft and used him for their own purposes, means that that 'someone' understood their higher goal and wanted to turn it into one of their own.

«Finish it,» I begged. «Kill Tully Mardi. Finish for the old Mycroft who was yours heart and soul. That’s the only revenge I need.»

This part too, reveals that their was a higher goal, and hints that it has to do with correcting a wrongdoing that was done to Mycroft / both of them. (hide spoiler)]

Despite a lot of the confusion, and yelling at the narrator, I am starting to like where the plot is going. The reveals from the latest chapters really enrich the story. I'm going to be so dissapointed if this turns out to be a flimsy backstory!

It has a occurred to me that a re-read is probably required, to be able to appriciate it fully though.

[Seán]

I'm glad the reveals have got you interested Bram! They do come perhaps a little late, but damn are they worth it. Your quote from Chapter 20 had me like, "Oh oh oooohh!" I love first-person narration when it's done well, and I think that this chapter elevated the book significantly.

I finished my review, which I'll link here. I've kept it non-spoilery and gushed plenty, but overall I think it's a worthy 5-star read.

[Bram]

Seán wrote: "I'm glad the reveals have got you interested Bram! They do come perhaps a little late, but damn are they worth it. Your quote from Chapter 20 had me like, "Oh oh oooohh!" I love first-person narrat..."

I fully agree that they are quite late to the party; It's made my ongoing rating go up from a 2-3 star to a 3-4 star rating. Let's see what she does with the last 30%.

[Bram]

Okay. So I was not prepared for all that. There is so much revelation in the last 3-4 chapters, that turns so much on its head. Mind-boggling. It also makes a lot of things make a lot more sense!

I'm finished and the review is up.

I should really re-read this, but I MUST know how the story unfolds. Seven Surrenders, Get Ready, cuz' Here I Come!

[Seán]

Really glad you liked it in the end Bram - this is definitely a book where there is some frustrations, but a real reward in the end. Maybe the payoff comes a little late on, but it is worth the wait.

I will be up for reading Seven Surrenders in the coming months, so let me know if you want to read it on here!

[Bram]

Seán wrote: "I will be up for reading Seven Surrenders in the coming months, so let me know if you want to read it on here! "

I'm sorry, I couldn't wait a few months... I've started as soon as I could (literally got the audiobook at work and put it on as soon as I headed home). Different narrator, which threw me off at first, because he does the voices differently and his overall tone is different, but I adapted quite quickly and I must say that the first chapter puts soooo many things in perspective, that I had to go back to Too like the lightning to look up a few things again.

[Seán]

Hah, enjoy reading on! I can't pick up the next book in a series straight away, I'm gonna wait and spread it out over a couple of months. Glad it gets off to a good start at least - I'll avoid here until I've read it though to avoid any hints of anything at all ;)

[Bram]

Seán wrote: "Hah, enjoy reading on! I can't pick up the next book in a series straight away, I'm gonna wait and spread it out over a couple of months."

That's a weird philosophy. I find that series tend to be better if you can read on immediately. If there's too much time in between you might lose track of plot changes or side characters or the way you feel about them.

That said, I won't spoil anything here. I'm 25% in and thus far the plot has moved quite a lot, but the most important thing is that so many of the questions from Too like the Lighthing get answers, satisfying answers. At this point I'm willing to concede that Ada Palmer might very well be a genius.

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Library book finally came due. I'll be starting either Wed night or Thursday morning.

[Bram]

Scott wrote: "Library book finally came due. I'll be starting either Wed night or Thursday morning."

Hear Hear! I'll be around to discuss your findings. I find, personally, that the farther I progress into Seven Surrenders, the more I can appreciate the sheer genius that Too like the Lightning was.

[Seán]

Scott wrote: "Library book finally came due. I'll be starting either Wed night or Thursday morning."

Excellent - I'll be glad to hear your thoughts on it Scott!

I'm now actively hunting for Seven Surrenders in my local stores - you have me too tempted to just jump straight into it Bram!

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Bram wrote: "Scott wrote: "Library book finally came due. I'll be starting either Wed night or Thursday morning."

Hear Hear! I'll be around to discuss your findings. I find, personally, that the farther I prog..."

I can start a seven surrenders thread. I put that on reserve as well and will probably roll into it shortly after this book.

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Bram wrote: "Good luck and much fun for all starting today (even for those cheaters that started last week) and to all starting in the future (that about covers everyone, right?)

Partway through chapter 2. Thi..."

I'm partway through chapter two. Some of the quotes are admittedly brilliant but the post event stream of consciousness style might do me in if this is going to be the way it goes for the entire book. It doesn't help that I have no clue which direction this book is going at this particular moment. I feel like I'm reading Naked Lunch and the author is stoned to the bejesus ranting philosophy and ancient history while waxing poetically about both.

[Bram]

Scott wrote: "Bram wrote: "Scott wrote: "Library book finally came due. I'll be starting either Wed night or Thursday morning."

Hear Hear! I'll be around to discuss your findings. I find, personally, that the f..."

That's an apt comparison. I find that, now that I'm close to the end of Seven Surrenders, TLTL is very much a set-up book. It sets up the world, society, characters, plotlines, etc.. but it answers very little. For most of the book I felt thoroughly lost. Don't let that dissuade you though. The "post-event analysis" does drop off more toward the end, but in retrospect, it makes very much sense to have it this way. This is definitely going on my favs-forever list.

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Through chapter 3......I felt like the second half of chapter two I got into a rhythm and was starting to figure it out and then chapter three was so abstract again.

[Seán]

I think it was Chapter 5-6 when I started to hit my stride, and by Chapter 8 I was all in. Definitely stick with it as it does get better as you read.

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

I just couldn't keep going. I DNF'd at 25%. There were aspects I really liked but I got sick of saying WTF was that and re-reading paragraphs.

[Bram]

Scott wrote: "I just couldn't keep going. I DNF'd at 25%. There were aspects I really liked but I got sick of saying WTF was that and re-reading paragraphs."

I'm sorry it didn't work out for you. It is a bit of work and the beginning has some serious WTF moments. To each their own. Cheers mate.

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Bram wrote: "Scott wrote: "I just couldn't keep going. I DNF'd at 25%. There were aspects I really liked but I got sick of saying WTF was that and re-reading paragraphs."

I'm sorry it didn't work out for you. ..."

No doubt. I think if I had more time I could have stuck it out by my schedule is tight and I have some other reads to get to. I may give it another go at some point.