Too Like the Lightning [June 2017]

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

June 19th

[Gelisvb]

Thank you!

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

My library hold is moving faster than expected so I should be able to join. If I like it I'm in for books two and three. Two just came out. Three is out in Dec.

[Gelisvb]

I think that it's a duology

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Gelisvb wrote: "I think that it's a duology"

It's not.

https://www.goodreads.com/series/1662...

[Gelisvb]

Sorry, I had understood that from some reviewers. Good to know!

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

No worries. I had looked it up yesterday to see if the library had all the books in the series.

[Bram]

Looking forwad to this. It has been on my to-read list for ages, but it keeps getting bumped back.

[Seán]

Really looking forward to this - the book looks gorgeous on my shelf and is really tempting me to pick it up soon. I'll try hold off till the read starts though!

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Hopefully my hold comes up by then.

[Gelisvb]

My copy has arrived and it's beautiful

[Bram]

Gelisvb wrote: "My copy has arrived and it's beautiful"

Indeed, that cover is just gorgeous.

[Dan]

I'm in! Received my book, and got just enough to pack in between :)

[Bram]

Dan wrote: "I'm in! Received my book, and got just enough to pack in between :)"

How do you plan that? I've been dreading the fact that I won't be able to aim precisely at the 19th (or thereabouts).

Also kind of dreading that my pace will either be way too slow, or way too fast. (First time BuddyReader).

[Dan]

Hey Bram!

Well, it is a bit of guess-work.

If I start a book a day or two before, I'll jot down some notes for the discussion once it opens up, but I don't like to start a buddy read more than a day or two before the schedule.

If I'm not done with my current book and the BR starts, I generally put the current book on hold for a couple of weeks to get into the discussion.

[Seán]

I'm really looking forward to this. From a quick glance through the book, the writing seems to have an interesting style. This is just one of those books I have a feeling™ about, you know?

I wouldn't worry too much about pacing Bram - if you're enjoying it and read through it quickly, then don't let the buddy read hold you back! Just throw your thoughts down here and make sure that spoilers are clearly tagged. Or if it's a slow burn, then still make sure to post any thoughts - most people will still have notifications set for the thread so can hop back in to chat.

I know I've posted in and had replies to reads that happened months before, just because I happened to read the book at a later stage myself.

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

I'm still #10 on 4 copies. So unless the waitlist speeds up I'll be starting this late. The good news is I'm #5 on 2 copies on book 2 Seven Surrenders so if we like this one and want to continue I should be good for August.

[Frank]

I am trying my best to squeeze this in between all my other buddy reads here, LOL.

[Seán]

I'm probably going to start this today or tomorrow, just to try and make sure I have it read before the Wheel of Time read starts in July. Have a feeling this will be a somewhat slower read, but I'm still looking forward to it.

If I'm the only one here I'm still happy going ahead with it :p

[Bram]

Doing my best to wrap up "The Malice by Peter Newman" by monday. Weekend is always a slow-read period for me due to all the work that needs doing in and around the house.

I'm so pscyhed!

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Bram wrote: "Doing my best to wrap up "The Malice by Peter Newman" by monday. Weekend is always a slow-read period for me due to all the work that needs doing in and around the house.

I'm so pscyhed!"

How is The Malice? Loved The Vagrant but haven't gotten to it yet.

[Bram]

Scott wrote: "Bram wrote: "Doing my best to wrap up "The Malice by Peter Newman" by monday. Weekend is always a slow-read period for me due to all the work that needs doing in and around the house.

I'm so pscyh..."

I'm divided on it. It doesn't have that *ooomph* that the Vagrant had, that wouldn't be interesting either. The world building, prose and humor are all still there though. Character building is actually very nice. It's a shame that the MC is not the brightest sharpie in the box, at least imo. Currently shifting between a 3.5 and 4 star rating. We'll see how the ending goes.

[Seán]

Scott wrote: "Bram wrote: "Doing my best to wrap up "The Malice by Peter Newman" by monday. Weekend is always a slow-read period for me due to all the work that needs doing in and around the house.

I'm so pscyh..."

Exact same boat here, would be interested to know your thoughts Bram!

I read the first 20 pages or so on the bus into work. Not gonna lie, this is something that I know I am going to love, but I will not hold it against anyone who puts it down because of the writing style. Take the 'Prayer to the Reader' at the start of the book seriously - Palmer is picking a specific writing style and running with it.

I'm just chuffed that my Enlightenment Philosophy classes in college are finally useful for something :D

[Bram]

I'm going for the ebook / audiobook combo (as is my wont) and I'm curious to see how the writing style translates to audiobook, given that I've seen a few references to the fact the it's 'not for everyone'.

I like a little special writing, if it's done well. Peter Newman does it too in the series of The Seven, and it works pretty well for me.

[Seán]

Bram wrote: "I'm going for the ebook / audiobook combo (as is my wont) and I'm curious to see how the writing style translates to audiobook, given that I've seen a few references to the fact the it's 'not for e..."

I'm such a stickler for writing style, and I'm really not a fan of audio-books as I think it puts too much faith in the narrator's ability, rather than my own reading ability. So I'll be interested to see how it goes for you!

It's not actually too difficult a style to get into, and it's one that I think will translate well into a good narration. It just might come across as a bit 'pretentious' if it's not clicking with you.

For me with books, the order of importance goes: writing style > world-building > characters > plot - I do tend to get excited when some interesting writing comes along, so don't mind me going on a bit about it :)

[Ahdam]

I was just going through ebooks and I found out that this book will be released on the 1st of July 8 may not read it with you guys but now I know I can get since the story seems interesting so I hope to hear good things about it

It's a shame if it was available earlier I would have joined

[Bram]

Seán wrote: "Bram wrote: "I'm going for the ebook / audiobook combo (as is my wont) and I'm curious to see how the writing style translates to audiobook, given that I've seen a few references to the fact the it..."

What do you mean with '1st of July 8' ? As far as I know, the book 'Too like the lightning' has been out since may last year. You can get it here

[Ahdam]

The 8 was a mistype and when Sean brought the book up months ago I couldn't find it so I decided not to join but then I searched it again on iBooks and found out you can pre order it as is expected to be released on the 1st I think it might be a country thing

[Bram]

Ahdam wrote: "The 8 was a mistype and when Sean brought the book up months ago I couldn't find it so I decided not to join but then I searched it again on iBooks and found out you can pre order it as is expected..."

Ah right, you're talking about paper books. I'm sorry, I'm so used to ebooks that I didn't get it before. If you want to order the paperback that can be country-specific. You could always order through amazon, they ship worldwide.

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Regarding audiobooks I think selection is the key. Something like Saxon Stories where the plot is clearcut and there's a pattern to the stories audiobooks are a great format. Something with depth to it like Malazan I would never attempt on audio. Also somebody like Daniel Abraham who just has such a smooth writing style I would never do on audio. Some books like the Red Rising trilogy was firmly enhanced by the narrator. Riyeria I've done in both written and audio and they're awesome no matter.

I don't know enough about Ms Palmer's style to say if she's a good audio candidate.

[Bram]

Scott wrote: "I don't know enough about Ms Palmer's style to say if she's a good audio candidate. "

Well, we're bound to find out :D

[Bram]

Good luck and much fun for all starting today (even for those cheaters that started last week) and to all starting in the future (that about covers everyone, right?)

Partway through chapter 2. This book really promises to be an "experience".

The writing style flows nicely on the audiobook, but at times it's hard to follow what exactly is happening. Had to listen to the first half of chapter 2 twice, before I got the lay of the land correctly. Read the same part again in the ebook just to be sure I didn't miss anything. Ebook does seem easier to follow along and not get lost. I'm hoping it will become easier as I get adapter to this crazy world.

Some great quotes too, It seems I'm going on a highlight frenzy again.

(view spoiler)[

Have you never watched a death, reader? In slow cases like blood loss it is not so much a moment as a stretch of ambiguity—one breath leaves and you wait uncertain for the next: was that the last? One more? Two more? A final twitch? It takes so long for cheeks to slacken and the stink of relaxing bowels to escape the clothes that you can’t be certain Death has visited until the moment is well past. Not so here.

Actually quite insightful; A bit graphic, but insightful.

Or this gem, with some semi-hidden wittticism:

Her gaze alone was enough to hush him. “Convince me that I should trust you with the most important and dangerous power in the world.”
“Dangerous?”
“I could have written ‘Deadly Super-Plague’ on that vial.”
Carlyle’s pale cheeks grew paler. “You should because I … can … offer … context? And comparison, and scenarios, and ‘-ism’ names for things!”

Who doesn't like a good '-ism' name!
(hide spoiler)]

[Seán]

I'm up to about Chapter 6 now - I'm definitely taking my time with this, both because of my enjoyment of the style and the sheer amount of content packed into it.

I can imagine the audio book being a bit easier after the fourth or fifth chapter - I felt pretty comfortable with the world-building at that point and flew through Chapter 6 (which is just awesome).

I fully agree on the quotes you listed Bram - there are some gems here. I'm glad that Palmer is managing to remain on the 'witty' side rather than slipping into 'pretentious.' I'll have some of my own to add when I'm not on mobile :)

[Gelisvb]

I have read only few pages.i'll take my time. I've studied philosophy in high school.Do you think I should refresh something before immersing myself in this book?

[Seán]

Gelisvb wrote: "I have read only few pages.i'll take my time. I've studied philosophy in high school.Do you think I should refresh something before immersing myself in this book?"

Nah, there's nothing so far that isn't explained well enough. Palmer's just really making use of Enlightenment writers in style and content, but she's explaining all of the references clearly enough that you won't be missing out.

[Bram]

Do made-up dead people go to the afterlife?

I can SO see my kids ask this :-D

[Seán]

Some of the existential questions brought up are just so much fun.

Then there's the Emma Platz situation which is just terrifying...

[Bram]

I think on the whole, the very existance of Sensesayers is hillarious but not entire unlikely. I also very much loved Bridger's definition of them:

(view spoiler)[“A sensayer is”—sobs punctuated his answer like hiccups—“somebody who—loves the universe so—so much they—spend their whole life—talking about—all the different—ways that it—could be.” (hide spoiler)]

[Bram]

Allright, so I'm not buying this (Chapter 4):

(view spoiler)[

You, distant reader, and I now thinking back on this scene with the distance of weeks, we two can see Andō looming behind his wife, watching in calculated silence as this exquisite tool extracts what he desires. But the Mycroft who kneels before her, he sees nothing but those eyes, keen as blue diamond, which slice even as they sparkle.

This seems like such an easy plot mechanic. Not for the life of me can I imagine that a woman is SO seductive that she could extract his deepest, best kept, secret with just a simple question.
It's complete hogwash.

You could point out the whole we-don't-do-genders-anymore gig being responable for him being extra sensitive to 'attraction',
but I'm still going to call bullshit on it. But while we are on the topic, I find the whole them / they instead of he / she to be annoying and confusing. We couldn't have gone the road Ann Leckie went and use Xe or some new word? It HAD to be a confusing mess ? As if this book doesn't dump enough information on your head in the first few chapters to be completely lost.

That said, I think I'm starting to get the lay of the land a bit.
Despite the huge infodumps, it's still explained pretty well,
using. (hide spoiler)]

[Seán]

Bram wrote: "Allright, so I'm not buying this (Chapter 4):


(I typed a fair amount of ramblings here - let me know if anything's considered too spoilery and I can tag it. I don't think I've veered into it, but apologies if you feel I have.)

I get where you're coming from. I didn't really have much of an issue with this though, because I'm mostly going on the assumption that we're dealing with an unreliable narrator. There's been no direct evidence for that so far, so don't consider this a spoiler but instead speculation on my part. I don't trust Mycroft one bit, and a scene such as this strikes me as something to point in the direction of mistrusting him.

I'll add a spoiler tag to further clarify this point - this is a thought I have that has not been confirmed based on where I am in the book (Chapter 17), but which maaay have been hinted at and which I definitely think is possible:

(view spoiler)[ I reckon Mycroft 100% has the Canner Device and his admitting his secret here is just misdirection for the reader. Again though, I'm extremely paranoid of first person narration :) (hide spoiler)]

Again, just speculation, but I will never trust a first person narrator ;)

I'm up to Chapter 17 now, and am still loving it. This is definitely a personal preference, as I can objectively see plenty of issues with the book - mostly plot related. I've just been enjoying the act of reading each chapter, and I don't really care where the story is going so long as I get more world-building and encounters with strange characters. If a strong, fast-moving plot is what you want, I can easily see you putting this book down well before the point I'm at. But I'm enjoying it enough for what it is that I'm happily reading away chapter at a time.

On gender and how Palmer is using it: it's completely finicky and really comes across as something she wanted to force into the book. It was the one part of the book that initially threw me off, because it came across as an author just throwing in a gender complication because it's the 'thing to do' nowadays. Thankfully after reading on a bit, it's never something that's highlighted too strongly and I can easily work with it.

I loved how Ann Leckie used the vague pronouns to make you double-take and question your image of a character after hearing her referred to as 'he' for so long - it seems like Palmer tried to imitate that here without fully succeeding.

A note on Palmer's writing, while I think of it: the more I read, the more the fact that she's a trained historian is drawn to the front of my mind. I really enjoy her writing, and the world-building is indeed excellent, but her control over the narrative and a plot that (hopefully) resolves is nowhere near as strong as her ability to create and detail a world. This is where I remind myself that this is Palmer's first published novel, and it's something I will be looking for clear improvements on in the next books.

[Bram]

This comment has proved to be rather a lot longer than I was initially planning. Please excuse my ranting in advance.

Sean wrote: On gender and how Palmer is using it: it's completely finicky and really comes across as something she wanted to force into the book. It was the one part of the book that initially threw me off, because it came across as an author just throwing in a gender complication because it's the 'thing to do' nowadays. Thankfully after reading on a bit, it's never something that's highlighted too strongly and I can easily work with it.

I agree, somewhat. I'm somewhere in chapter 8 right now and the gender thing is really starting to get on my nerves. There's no consistency and it's annoying as hell. I also feel like it was forced into the story because it's so hot a topic right now, but I don't feel like it's well done, or even getting better. If anything, I feel it's getting worse.

Another thing I would like to rant about note is the, completely out of the blue, rampant, sex drops. Take this for example:

(minor spoiler) (view spoiler)[Confess, reader. Something in you hungers for transgression here. Show me, Mycroft! Strip that antique costume from the flesh beneath. Show me whether this she-man wears a strap-on, and if so have him use it! This woman Lesley, doomed from childhood to be the prize for rivals Ockham and Ojiro, let her revenge herself on them by cuckolding the victor here. Let them do it against the wall, or upstairs, with Mukta looking on! And, for contrast, throw in limp Eureka and Sidney lounging in the background, blind in their permanent masturbation with the computer! It was in your mind, reader, was it not? (hide spoiler)]

The entire time I was screaming: NO YOU EFFING SEX CRAVED BAFOON! That is NOT what I was thinking AT ALL. Where the hell is this coming from ?

It seems to be a recurring, underlying theme in the world here. We've banned religion & genders and everything gender-specific, so your actual genitals don't define your gender any more (like is the craze right now), but your clothes do - and apparently almost no one appears to assume the gender that would actually fit their genitals, because that seems totally logical.

Art thou certain, Mycroft, that thou appliest thine own formula correctly? Here thou describest silks and embroidery, curls and ribbons, pleats and skirting, and appliest ‘he’? I know the name Dominic Seneschal, and know too there are breasts beneath that taut waistcoat, that the thigh and pelvis which the coat’s high cut displays are very much a woman’s. If thou must have thy fetishizing pronouns, shouldst thou not write ‘she,’ when ‘she’ is so garishly proclaimed?

So far I don't think we've seen a single character that was addressed correctly as man/woman.

I've got the impression that they've locked sex up in a dark cabinet somewhere and it's now a public secret yet the author seems to feel it necessary to drop us some graphic, edgy sex shit every now and then, like I'm reading fifty shades. It adds absolutely nothing to the story. So far it has done nothing but throw me off. I'm basing that impression on this bit from Chapter 2:

Does it distress you, reader, how I remind you of their sexes in each sentence? ‘Hers’ and ‘his’? Does it make you see them naked in each other’s arms, and fill even this plain scene with wanton sensuality? Linguists will tell you the ancients were less sensitive to gendered language than we are, that we react to it because it’s rare, but that in ages that heard ‘he’ and ‘she’ in every sentence they grew stale, as the glimpse of an ankle holds no sensuality when skirts grow short. I don’t believe it. I think gendered language was every bit as sensual to our predecessors as it is to us, but they admitted the place of sex in every thought and gesture, while our prudish era, hiding behind the neutered ‘they,’ pretends that we do not assume any two people who lock eyes may have fornicated in their minds if not their flesh

What the hell kind of society is this ? They claim to have banned all religion (or rather, made a hodgepodge of it) and yet they treat sex (religions guilty little sin) like they're all catholic priests in the 1600's. As far as society development goes, this seems completely illogical and contradictive to me. The funny thing is, that despite them all being, well in public at least, prudes, the entire story so far has been running on a sexual undercurrent from the start.


Urrggh, this book is pissing me off! So far, if you strip all the religion/gender/sex bullshit, we're left with nothing more than an interesting world and a weird mystery, of which, at 20% we still know almost nothing. I'm so hoping this gets better.

Lastly, regarding Chapter 7, there's this bit:

(view spoiler)[ The strings already working in the world will pull it back themselves. The Hives are closer than Kohaku imagined. That will save us. (hide spoiler)]

I'll just go on the record stating that I don't believe that for one second. Foreshadowing anyone?

[Gelisvb]

I am starting chapter 3. The world is interesting, but I hoped this will become more engrossing.

[Seán]

Bram wrote: "Another thing I would like to rant about note is the, completely out of the blue, rampant, sex drops. Take this for example:"

I actually liked this scene - Dominic is supposed to be this terrifying and sinister individual, and once he appears and acts the writing is switched up to something violent and sexual immediately. It felt like a real intrusion, and I think your reaction is completely the correct one! I thought it was a pretty effective way of establishing Dominic as this entity who does not abide by the same rules as the majority, and how others perceive him as a scary individual.

I'm still not fully happy with the they/he/she thing - I get what Palmer's trying to do, but it still comes across as incredibly forced, even as I move into the second half of the book. I like the idea of just using 'they' as a default pronoun, and then using 'he/she' to highlight something particular about a character, but once we get a narrator intervention to muse on the topic a bit, things just get a bit too preachy.

Honestly though, I'm still enjoying this a lot but fully accept it is mostly for personal preferences that I would never argue for objectively. The world-building reminds me of Gene Wolfe and Neal Stephenson's Anathem, and that immediately puts me in a happy place where I can ignore a lot of faults. Not that I think there are many here - I still think that this is a very strong piece of writing, it just veers quickly into annoying on a number of instances where it really shouldn't.

Plot-wise, I'm definitely invested. It's definitely a slow-burn, but there's been enough interesting characters and revelations that I want to read more and find out what's going on. The fact that there are two follow-up books has me wondering exactly where things are going, but every time I sit down with the book I quickly burn through a chapter or two and enjoy my time spent. So I'm definitely happy to commit to the series at this stage. I'm hoping Bram and Gelisvb enjoy it a bit more, but this is definitely a book I will not hold it against anyone for not enjoying.

[Gelisvb]

I have not understood anything that happens in chapter 3. Maybe I was tired. Maybe I was not in the mood. Can someone explain it to me?

[Seán]

Gelisvb wrote: "I have not understood anything that happens in chapter 3. Maybe I was tired. Maybe I was not in the mood. Can someone explain it to me?"

I'll spoiler tag this, but it's just basic information:

(view spoiler)[Just glancing back on the chapter, it looks like where we get Martin Guildbreaker, an investigator sent to checkup on a break-in and the Saneer-Weeksbooth house. Ockham, who seems to mostly be 'in charge' of the logistics of the house, gives Martin a tour around and we learn a bit about the world, specifically that the Saneer-Weeksbooth's operate the main car network which is capable of transporting people anywhere in the world in no more than an hour or two - they're thus pretty damn important in terms of World Powers. We learn a bit about some of the other members of the bash' as well, but that's pretty much it! It's mostly a world-building chapter focused on the Saneer-Weeksbooth bash' and how the fit into the larger world. (hide spoiler)]

[Bram]

Seán wrote: "Bram wrote: "Another thing I would like to rant about note is the, completely out of the blue, rampant, sex drops. Take this for example:"

I actually liked this scene - Dominic is supposed to be t..."

I get how you experience Dominic, but for me personally, it felt forced and totally out of context. That might be because the narration is done from Mycroft's point of view, which makes it feel really weird. Apparently this train of thought is something that occured to him, and he automatically assumes it will occur to us as well. I'm really starting to dislike the narrator.

On that note, I also feel that there's a discrepency between the person Mycroft Canner and the narrator Mycroft Canner. It feels like it's 2 completely different person, and where I can relate to the person, I absolutely can't stand the narrator. He feels like a pretentious, pompous ass most of the time (pretty much every time he interrupts the proceedings).

Currently halfway chapter 9. So far the book has been 60% worldbuilding (interesting world), 20% plot and 20% Mycroft ranting to the reader about gender / religion.

Lastly, chapter 9 is the one where Bridger has his Sensesayer's session. Am I the only one that thinks that this Sensesayer thing is complete bullshit? All he does is parrot your questions back at you and raising more and more confusion. The end conclusion is => do whatever the fuck you want to, nobody or everybody is going to care, but that doesn't matter, as long as you believe what you're doing is right.
I get that this might be a nice criticism on religion nowadays, but still it feels completely arbitrary and long-winded for no reason but to complicate the world a bit more.

[Bram]

Might also be worth mentioning: Despite my long rants, I find myself conflicted about this book. The writing is indeed very nice, and the plot/world is interesting enough the keep me sucked in, despite my annoyances with some aspects. Keen to see where this is headed.

[Seán]

Bram wrote: ".On that note, I also feel that there's a discrepency between the person Mycroft Canner and the narrator Mycroft Canner. It feels like it's 2 completely different person, and where I can relate to the person, I absolutely can't stand the narrator."

I think this is pretty important - it's a first person narrator who is clearly keeping things hidden from the reader, so a big part of the book seems to be playing with exactly who Mycroft is and what his agenda is.

Have you ever read Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun? It's my favourite series of books ever and there are some real parallels between the narrators that are more than coincidental.

I didn't get to read much over the weekend - the little one hasn't quite learned to appreciate my sleep schedule just yet :) I'm up to Chapter 25 and am still enjoying things quite a bit. I think I'll have to be clear reviewing this that I'm leaning on a personal bias quite heavily - this is definitely an objective 3-star book. There are some great ideas, and an equal amount of flaws/annoyances. For me personally though it's closer to a 4-4.5 though, but again, that's being incredibly subjective.

This has also been the most I've thought and written about a book in a looong time, and I feel compelled to get my wife to read it so we can discuss it properly, so I think that counts for something.

[Gelisvb]

I am having lots of trouble with this. It doesn't read like a not English mother tongue friendly book. I don't feel motivated to pick this up. Also I have trouble wanting to pick this up. I think I will start this again. I am very sad because I was very excited to read this

[Seán]

Gelisvb wrote: "It doesn't read like a not English mother tongue friendly book."

I can definitely understand and agree with that. Palmer's actively trying to write in an older and complicated style, and that can be really jarring. I'm enjoying it so much in a large part because I read a lot of stuff like Voltaire, Diderot, Rousseau and other stuff like that in college, so the style is instantly familiar. I have to think that you're at double disadvantage without some knowledge of them, as well as English not being your first language.

Maybe take a break and come back to it at a later stage? I do think it takes about 7 or 8 chapters for the writing to really start to flow, but even then it can be tough going.