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Signs Preceding the End of the World
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Signs Preceding the End of the World - Whole Book Discussion, Spoilers Allowed (May 2017)
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My starter for 10 (or 9, as it happens).Compare the 9 chapter titles with the following titles of the Aztec Underworlds (starting from Earth):
Earth (The Earth)
River and Yellow Dog (The Water Crossing)
Two mountains (The Place Where the Hills Meet)
Obsidian Mountain (The Obsidian Mound)
Bitter Wind (The Place Where the Wind Cuts Like a Knife)
Banners (The Place Where Flags Wave)
Arrows (The Place Where Hearts Are Eaten)
Wild Beast (The Snake that Lies in Wait)
Narrow Place (The Place with no Windows or Holes for the Smoke)
The final Underworld is "Soul at Rest"
(http://www.mexicolore.co.uk/aztecs/as...)
Wow thanks for sharing Neil, no coincidence there it seems!
No - assuming the website I found it on is reliable! I think it's right because I think I read something about this elsewhere.It seems that the author definitely doesn't want us to think only about a journey from Mexico to USA.
It's interesting to me that so often we (writ large - not this group of readers, per se) as readers want to understand works by limiting them in ways that their authors expressly reject. Here (I understand - I haven't finished it), the author does not identify either country, suggesting what you said, Neil. Similarly, Mohsin Hamid does not identify his novels as occurring in any named country, and yet often they are spoken of as taking place in Pakistan because that's where he lives.
Mod
For me, this book definitely worked, but it is very difficult to come up with coherent thoughts. It did take me a couple of chapters to get into it, and I was grateful for the translator's note for its insights into the vocabulary, some of which seemed very strange.
Carol, you are right that the countries are not explicitly identified, but the disguise is pretty thin...
Was the translation successful?
I think this is impossible for a non-Spanish speaker to judge!
Did the ending satisfy you?
The penultimate chapter was the most powerful, but I think it did...
I am not familiar with Dante or Aztec mythology, so I obviously missed all that. However, I didn't miss the pain and suffering immigrants deal with. As Hugh said, not knowing Spanish I don't know if the translation was successful but my emotions were definitely affected which leads me to believe the translation worked. I believe the ending was the right ending!
What a clever little read - worked for me. Likewise the Dante and Aztec correlations escaped me. My favorite part of the book was the first letter home from Makina's brother - still smiling at his descriptions.
It has been a while since I read the book but it stayed with me. As with most everyone else, I did not catch the references to Dante and Aztec underworld. While I've delved into Dante, I've never gotten too far and my knowledge of the Aztecs is pitiful. Hard to comment on the quality of the translation, but it obviously worked for me as I liked the book. I've never thought about an ending as being "satisfying," but since I liked the book, I'd have to say it was.
It certainly seemed like the border was that between Mexico and the US to me but then I'm not familiar with the details of most other border crossings by illegal immigrants or refugees.
I was just going to ask what is it with using "verse" for several different verbs, when I reached the translator's note - that made so much sense and heightened the impact of the book for me. I got the Dante references but not the Aztec ones, so thank you Neil, for pointing that out.
Without speaking Spanish well, I would say the translation was done well, as I truly connected with the emotional impact of the book. The scene with Makina writing that note to the border patrol volunteer will stay with me for a very long time.
Not sure yet how I feel about the ending (I was reading on kindle and thought I had much more to go than I did, so I'll need some time to mull an end that felt very sudden).
I'm so glad that this book was selected, because I probably wouldn't have read it, and I'm very glad I did. It was not until the last chapter that I suspected it was metaphorical, although it would have been strong enough "simply" as a powerful and artistic portrayal of border crossing cultures. Thanks, Neil, for the helpful reference to Aztec mythology.I read it on Kindle - did others see the Translator's notes at the end? I figured out what "versed" was due to context, as she says in her notes, but it was interesting reading about her methods.
I’ve read “Signs. . . “ twice in the last month, and, like Hugh, I still have difficulty distilling my thoughts about it. I’ve also read Sunjeev Sahota’s “The Year of the Runaways" and Mohsin Hamid’s “Exit West” within the past year. Like “Signs. . .”, “Year of the Runaways” and “Exit West” center on international refugees, and I can’t help but think of “Signs. . .” as one of three unintentionally linked novels.Trying to force myself to evaluate “Signs. . .” in its own right, I found it effective and affecting as a portrayal of international flight, its dangers, and the randomness of trying to make it through a new country. The magical elements to the story, and especially the end, disappointed me. The translation, judging by how easily it reads in English, seemed overall well done. But unlike Kay, I found Lisa Dillman’s use of “verse” distracting. Dillman tells us that “verse” was used for “jarchar,” apparently a neologism incorporated by Herrera in the original Spanish version. But whenever Dillman used “verse,” I found myself searching for more precise English words to substitute, especially since “verse” was apparently used to describe a variety of movement-related actions.
Perhaps unfair to compare “Signs. . .” to “Year of the Runaways” and “Exit West,” but I found both richer and more complex portrayals than “Signs. . .” “Exit West” relies much more heavily than “Signs. . .” on what I think of as magical elements, but in “Exit West” those elements seemed to be more integral and more thoroughly incorporated into the plot.
Dan wrote: "I’ve read “Signs. . . “ twice in the last month, and, like Hugh, I still have difficulty distilling my thoughts about it. I’ve also read Sunjeev Sahota’s “The Year of the Runaways" and Mohsin Hamid..."Dan, interesting comparisons. I am intrigued to read Exit West now to see these magical elements for myself.
On the topic of Aztec mythology, wiki includes what struck me as a voluminous number of references to it in popular culture.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aztec_m...
Looking down the list, I realized that I've been exposed to countless references to Aztec mythology, often without attending to them.
A few examples:
In Harry Harrison's science fiction novel Captive Universe Coatlicue appears as a killer robot masquerading as the goddess intended to protect certain areas of a generational ship populated by an Aztec-derived culture
In the novel American Gods by Neil Gaiman, Shadow dreams of a museum filled with statues of gods and goddesses, and is profoundly disturbed by the statue of Coatlicue.
In the 2010 book The Necromancer: The Secrets of the Immortal Nicholas Flamel by Michael Scott, Coatlicue is a monster Dr. John Dee calls upon to destroy the Shadowrealms and then feast on Josh.
Octavio Paz's prose poem "The Obsidian Butterfly" from the collection Aguila O Sol (literally Eagle or Sun, colloquially "heads or tails") is named after Itzpapalotl, and she is in the poem.
Quetzalcoatl is mentioned in H.P. Lovecraft's "The Electric Executioner" and "The Curse of Yig". According to legends Yig is a snake god and prototype of Quetzacoatl.
Kay wrote: "Dan, interesting comparisons. I am intrigued to read Exit West now to see these magical elements for myself. ""Exit West" already seems like a classic to me. I also highly recommend Hamid's "Reluctant Fundamentalist," which is brief, disturbing, and highly memorable.
I re-read "Signs..." a couple of times, hoping to see what I was missing (considering the kudos from critics and other writers). I think the parallels with Aztec mythology clever, but they didn't strike me as particularly profound. (Perhaps the book is just over my head.) I'm more familiar with Mayan mythology.Having grown up on the Mexican border and working for a number of years as an interpreter for the Hispanic community, I'm quite conversant with the situation of "undocumented" aliens (to be politically correct). Perhaps for that reason, the novel was not particularly enlightening to me. I've also researched and written about the drug-cartel wars and related politics.
On the other hand, I think it a good story. I would give it two-and-a-half to three stars.
Many of the kudos that I've read have focused on Hererra's exploration of language and the mythic. The focus of the various writings and essays I read, generally, haven't been on the experience of undocumented travelers or the crime underworld, e.g., the factual or linear events, or even the characters as individuals, but on how Herrera uses them to explore broader themes, like language, like border crossings writ large, not necessarily the Mexico--US border. While I appreciate those aspects, as a reader, the books that resonate most with me tend to offer stories and characters that have depth in the flesh and blood world. I prefer the realistic to the mythic or fantastic or representative. In this case, though, I am intrigued by observations many reviewers have made regarding Hererra's focus on the theme of language.
Here's another interesting review:
https://shigekuni.wordpress.com/2015/...
Were you struck by the references to languages employed by each character, and how language was tied to place and shifted in relation to crossed borders? Did that theme make the read more rich or interesting for you? Other comments?
How does this novel compare --for you --to the works you've enjoyed of other authors from Mexico or Central America?
Carol: I read the review. Like I said, probably beyond me. Then I've never been enamored of symbolism and symbolic language.
Mod
Compare the 9 chapter titles with the following titles of the Aztec Underworlds (starting from Earth):..."
Excellent find, Neil, thanks! I had read this as a journey in a real place but at the same time a journey through a surreal and spiritual landscape (ala Cormac McCarthy), the Aztec underworld certainly grounds it more specifically. I am going to go back and read it again with this in mind. The first thing that pops out is the sinkhole at the beginning, and the question of whether Makina really did narrowly escape. She even says of the sinkholes "A few houses had already been sent packing to the underworld".
I also thought the translation was great, but of course it's hard to say. Translating works that have neologisms and various word play seems like a nearly impossible task. I was glad to find the discussion about the translation and especially the word "verse". Sounds like it may have been the best solution, if still one that falls short of the original. I mostly found it distracting due to it's use in the series Firefly as an abbreviation of "universe" :-)
Mod
Whitney wrote: "Neil wrote: "My starter for 10 (or 9, as it happens).Compare the 9 chapter titles with the following titles of the Aztec Underworlds (starting from Earth):..."
Excellent find, Neil, thanks! I ha..."
I was quite glad that I'd read about "verse" before encountering it in the text, else it would have been quite distracting. The translator's note was a great bonus.
I was not a fan of the ending. It struck me as both abrupt (an alarm went off and the author was instructed to put down his pen) and premature. Our MC's story arc was not focused on staying and getting an ID to function here. She intended to go back and man the switchboard in her village. Not that she isn't free to adapt, shift, change direction. Few authors are great at beginnings, endings, and the core of a novel. Herrera hit it out of the park on 2 out of 3 for me, which is a net win.
I would have enjoyed spending another 50+ pages both with Makina and with the author's fabulous sentences. I will look for his other novels now.
Mod
This part is about the ending: “…with each underworld that you cross, you are getting rid of some part of you, some part that makes you a living human being. And when you get to the last underworld, there is only silence; no others and no sounds and no life. The first Spanish priests identified that point as hell, even though there was no such thing as “hell” among the Mexicas. That place is the place of re-creation. In this world, you didn’t die and disappear, and you weren’t reincarnated: You came to this place of silence to somehow be part of a re-creation.”
Makina has some to that place of silence. And her new identity perhaps corresponds to a re-creation.
There is also a part in the interview where Herrera says how the men at the beginning correspond to Aztec gods, but there's no deeper meaning in it. I had started trying to determine if that was the case, but without any larger meaning I've lost heart (see what I did there?) to pursue it any further. For interested parties, I think they correspond to Huitzilopochtli, Quetzalcoatl, and Tlaloc (Mr Double-U, less sure about this one.)
Thanks for the reminder, Whitney. I had forgotten about the last underworld.
Jan wrote: "I re-read "Signs..." a couple of times, hoping to see what I was missing (considering the kudos from critics and other writers). I think the parallels with Aztec mythology clever, but they didn't s..."I didn't love it as much as the other group members either Jan. I gave it three stars. The Atzec thing went right over my head and although I found it to be a nice little story, I didn't really feel much of an emotional connection to the book. As far as the ending goes, I didn't think much about it at the time. It was pretty much what I expected to happen.
I like the way a book of comfortably under 100 pages can be about identity, death, racism, sexism and, perhaps most of all, migration and language. Overall, it seems to be asking us to think about migration being more than just a physical movement from one place to another, but rather something that transforms/changes the individual.
Jan wrote: "Interesting, Neil."I think that's why I find the layers/symbolism interesting in this one (I'm not normally all that interested in heavily symbolic books). But, I do think in this case the layers and the symbolism give us something that is more than the sum of its parts. The chapter titles take us on a metaphorical migration. Makina's physical migration takes her in search of a brother who has, symbolically, died (taken another identity). The story with her brother is simultaneously a metaphor and a commentary on the US.
I have to say that the more I think about this book, the cleverer and more impressive it becomes.
Neil wrote: "I like the way a book of comfortably under 100 pages can be about identity, death, racism, sexism and, perhaps most of all, migration and language. Overall, it seems to be asking us to think about ..."I agree 100%. It reminds me of that old undergrad saw, that all literature is about the search for identity. Here we have a journey reminiscent of many other epic journeys, and the experience ultimately transforms the journey-taker into someone whose identity is forever changed.
Mod
Let's discuss Makina's brother. He originally crosses because, we are told, there is land available to him in the US. Then he trades identities and serves in the military. Then he returns ... "home"? But he's not interested in returning to his home country. Mom be damned. What motivates him?
Why does he make the decision he makes? Does he belong in his chosen world?
What do you think about his brief conversations and his relationship with Makina?
Mod
Not coincidentally, Makina is rousted with the other Mexicans right after this, and writes her poem that includes “We who are happy to die for you, what else could we do? We, the ones who are waiting for who knows what.”
Whitney wrote: "I thought the brother largely showed the empty promise of the North. He goes in order to claim something that turns out to be worthless. He is hired to most likely die for an Anglo brat with promis..."That was one of my favorite quotes, Whitney. I'm glad you reminded us of it.
That note that Makina writes to the volunteer border patrol (very reminiscent of the 1950s Operation Wetback - yes, the name says it all) was the strongest moment of the novel for me. It summed up the US-Mexico relationship really well.
I finished this remarkable book last night.I am a fan of slim volumes that say so much in language the evokes images, and immerges me into their world.
This is my first read by Yuri Herrera but am interested in reading the other two books in the loosely connected trilogy.
While when reading I did not connect the format (and number of the chapters) to Dante, I did pick up on the references to Aztec method.
But, the format worked well for me. I liked how each chapter moved through Makina's transformation, awareness, understanding.
Carol wrote: "Many of the kudos that I've read have focused on Hererra's exploration of language and the mythic. The focus of the various writings and essays I read, generally, haven't been on the experience of ..."Yes, I did like how language was used in this story and how language is important in being accepted by different groups as you "cross borders" and/or in situations with different groups.
Language is often important in first impressions and as in this book be a part of survival.
How you speak a language or a dialect can provide a helping hand or a door slamming in your face. Identify you as friend or foe.
Carol wrote: "Whitney wrote: "I thought the brother largely showed the empty promise of the North. He goes in order to claim something that turns out to be worthless. He is hired to most likely die for an Anglo ..."Yes, that was also one of my favorite part of the book!
But, it had to happen sooner or later for Makina and I am glad that it happened at this point when she was more aware of what was going on.
I thought the scene was startling but well done and true.
Carol wrote: "Let's discuss Makina's brother. He originally crosses because, we are told, there is land available to him in the US. Then he trades identities and serves in the military. Then he returns ... "home..."I thought this showed the lure of the US - though it is nothing like what those who migrate here imagined it would be.
When the brother left it was with much promise on what he would find here and much expectations were placed on him.
It would have been too embarrassing for the brother to go back "home" empty handed and so it was easier for him to assume the identity.
At this point the brother is "passing" and this is always a difficult decision for a person to make and it is often easier or important that the true identity not be discovered.
Mod
Your comment reminded me of the note that Cora sent with Makina to give her brother: "Come on back now, it said in Cora’s crooked writing. Come on back now, we don’t expect anything from you." Cora certainly thought that it was his shame in coming back empty-handed that had prevented his return.
It's interesting that Makina never gave her brother the note, the delivery of which was the entire reason her journey started. Do you think it would have made a difference if she had?
No, it would not have made a difference. Her brother was enjoying his new life and had no desire to return home. Now, at some point in the future, he may feel differently.
Who's to know how a son would react to that message from his mama? I wished Marina had not withheld it. I generally find it problematic when family keeps information intended for a recipient from him. Great question, Whitney.
Carol wrote: "How does this novel compare --for you --to the works you've enjoyed of other authors from Mexico or Central America?..."This is a great discussion thread for this book, I've really enjoyed reading everyone's thoughts.
While the Aztec & Dante symbolisms were too subtle (for me) without the aid of external sources, the journey Makina takes is a universal one of death and rebirth. The writing itself, with its very simple and declarative sentences, reminded me of folk tales.
I really liked the repetitive use of the the words "verse/versed," it kept beating in a rhythmic sense of leaving leaving leaving.
The parting between Makina and her brother felt like the last real leaving, a heartbreaking one. A necessary one, if Makina was going to be able to walk away from her past & home and be reborn in a new place, as a new person.
"He leaned in toward her, and as he gave her a hug said Give Cora a kiss from me. He said it the same way he gave her the hug, like it wasn't his sister he was hugging, like it wasn't his mother he was sending a kiss to, but just a polite platitude. Like he was ripping out her heart, like he was cleanly extracting it and placing it in a plastic bag and storing it in the fridge to eat later."
That scene reminds me of the time Christ was told his mother and brothers were waiting outside for him, and he says "Who is my mother, who are my brothers?" He points to his disciples and says, "Here is my mother, here are my brothers... " Makina had to kill the past, just as her brother had, in order to be reborn. And she had to experience it as a real thing, a heartbreaking leaving to grieve over. I was gobsmacked by the idea that he would eat her heart later... I thought, this is just exactly how that kind of grief must feel.
The emphasis on language brings home the realization that language creates culture... and they are completely interdependent. Lose the language, and you lose the culture. New language creates new culture.
I have read one other book about an eventual border crossing, The Hummingbird's Daughter by Louis Alberto Urrea. This is a beautiful story, full of myth and magic and tales of a symbolic life. There is a sequel, about the experience of immigration for the protagonist, titled Queen of America, which I have not yet read.
I would never have known about this book if not for this group's reading choice, so thank you very much for a truly excellent reading experience.
Mod
I tend to agree with Linda that it wouldn't have made any difference. Makina seems to remember the note as an afterthought, and the tone implied to me that the note was now irrelevant. Her brother has been assimilated too fully into a new life. Or, with the underworld metaphor, he'd been ensnared by the traps in the journey through the underworld.
Mod
I assumed this was another deliberate reference to the Aztec culture, where human sacrifices would usually consist of removing someone's still beating heart.
Janice(JG) wrote: "Carol wrote: "How does this novel compare --for you --to the works you've enjoyed of other authors from Mexico or Central America?..."This is a great discussion thread for this book, I've really ..."
Thank you for participating, Janice, and sharing your reaction/s to it. That scene between Makina and her brother, and the quote you reference, was incredibly powerful for me, too. I should try Hummingbird. I hadn't connected the two works, in terms of theme, and appreciate the reminder.
Like Jan and Julie, this book didn't really work well for me, and I think my main problem was both the simplistic language (and the use of 'verse' drove me crazy, until the translator's note somewhat explained it) and an equally simplistic narrative. While it was a quick and easy read, all the symbolic elements flew right over my head, and though some individual moments were mildly interesting, I never felt truly involved with Makina's plight, which always seemed to be rendered at an emotional remove (for example, the woman actually gets shot, and rather shrugs off the entire incident).
Whitney wrote: "Beverly wrote: "...It would have been too embarrassing for the brother to go back "home" empty handed and so it was easier for him to assume the identity...."Your comment reminded me of the note ..."
For me Makina is what people call "an old soul".
I thought that she heard and knew things beyond her years.
And while she may have understood all that she has heard or witness - it seems that when confronted with situations she could call on what she knew/heard.
Her success as a telephone operator was based a lot on her being discreet, keeping secrets, and reading people.
While Makina didn't open the letter until she met up with her brother, I think she knew what the letter said (like I think we the reader also knew)
After speaking with her brother, she knew he was committed to keeping his "American" identity so all the letter would have done was add to his guilt.
It is not that the brother may not have yearned to be with his family but his "passing" required that he cut ties with his past.
Doug wrote: "I never felt truly involved with Makina's plight, which always seemed to be rendered at an emotional remove (for example, the woman actually gets shot, and rather shrugs off the entire incident). ..."Yes. Even at the very beginning of the book I felt let down. It starts with "I'm dead" when the sinkhole happens. Then then you get pulled away from the action with talk of previous sinkholes and when you get returned to the present, she's like "well, best get on with my errand" and moves on.
The problem I had with this book was that it was too short. I found the prose lovely and hoped for more of the story. I wish the author had expanded the theme and given us more.
Mod
...I thought this showed the lure of the US - though it is nothing like what those who migrate here imagined it would be.
Another scene which speaks to your point about the promise of the North versus the reality was when Makina see what she thinks is a pregnant women during her crossing: "And she thought, if that was any sort of omen it was a good one: a country where a woman with child walking through the desert just lies right down to let her baby grow, unconcerned about anything else. But as they approached she discerned the features of this person, who was no woman, nor was that belly full with child: it was some poor wretch swollen with putrefaction, his eyes and tongue pecked out by buzzards."
At the same time, this scene is relevant to Janice's point about Makina's journey being one of death and rebirth.
21st Century Literature
Books mentioned in this topic
The Hummingbird's Daughter (other topics)Queen of America (other topics)
At least one reviewer has deemed SPTEETW's 9 chapters and descriptions of guides, peril, and border crossings as a reference to Dante. What's your analysis? Are the parallels helpful to you in understanding SPTEETW?
Was the translation successful?
Did the ending satisfy you?
Share your responses, questions, analysis with this group below.