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The Unknown Ajax Group Read May 2017 Spoilers thread
Anyone feel sorry for the excise officer? He was just trying to do his job even if he was over zealous. Trying to make a name for himself. I felt for him a bit when he was trying to stand his ground against the 'toffs' and was made to look foolish. We all knew he was on the right track.
Teresa wrote: Anyone feel sorry for the excise officer? He was just trying to do his job even if he was over zealous. Trying to make a name for himself. I felt for him a bit when he was trying to stand his ground against the 'toffs' and was made to look foolish. We all knew he was on the right track. .."Absolutely!
I can hope that Hugo makes it up to him somehow after everything with Richmond blows over and he's shipped off.
Teresa wrote: "Anyone feel sorry for the excise officer? He was just trying to do his job even if he was over zealous. Trying to make a name for himself. I felt for him a bit when he was trying to stand his groun..."I do.
Teresa wrote: "Anyone feel sorry for the excise officer? He was just trying to do his job even if he was over zealous. Trying to make a name for himself. I felt for him a bit when he was trying to stand his groun..."Yes, I do!
Thinking of Lord Darracott's comeuppance, I remember being surprised on my first reading that he seemed in shock and sat in stunned silence. Now I can't help wondering how he felt seeing Hugo so thoroughly take charge while Darracott is a mere bystander - not only the entire family willingly following his lead without question - but saving his precious Richmond from such a serious charge! Got to be hard to take on the old coot.
Yes Susan but I can't help feeling glad. I really disliked him all the way through the book. He was the worse type of autocratic snob! Just because he's old doesn't mean we have to feel sorry for him. We reap what we sow!
Amy wrote: "Richmond is smuggling because it's fun even though he knows it's illegal. He makes fun of the excise officer because he thinks the officer is stupid and he is so clever for avoiding him. Can we make the argument that Richmond has never been taught right from wrong? Anthea knows it. I'm sure his mother tried to instill it in him even though his grandfather probably didn't help any. "
I think Richmond was encouraged to believe himself flawless. His mother seems to have a great many positive traits, but not strength of personality enough to really mold either of her strong minded children. Anthea and Richmond both did not fear much (if Richmond feared anything). It would have been a losing battle for poor Elvira to try to instill any sense of wrong or right if Lord Darracott did not reinforce it.
Anthea, at least, escaped that because (luckily) Lord Darracott had no interest in his female relatives/offspring.
Teresa wrote: "Anyone feel sorry for the excise officer? He was just trying to do his job even if he was over zealous. Trying to make a name for himself. I felt for him a bit when he was trying to stand his groun..."I did not really feel sympathy for Ottershaw. He did not catch Richmond with smuggled goods, could not control subordinates who shot a person just for running away, and was basically trying to bully a confession because his case would not hold water unless he achieved a confession.
I did not feel sympathy for Richmond either, such a selfish reckless brat.
Everyone in the family served to make Hugo shine even brighter, excepting Elvira, Anthea and Aurelia. And I thought there was no harm in Claud.
Amy wrote: "Claude is a truth teller and is quick to pick up on things. I suspect he's smarter than I originally thought he was. If he ever got over trying to be such a dandy he could probably go into politics..."Yes, Claud comes out well -- as does Polyphant! I absolutely loved Polyphant's secret glee in realizing that he would always and forever have an advantage over Crimplesham by his participation in the night's events.
Teresa wrote: "Yes Susan but I can't help feeling glad. I really disliked him all the way through the book. He was the worse type of autocratic snob! Just because he's old doesn't mean we have to feel sorry for h..."Amen, sister! I just realized this time (reading for the third or fourth time) how cataclysmic it must have seemed for him as a dictatorial old poop, must've seemed like the world was upside down...talk about your cognitive dissonance!
Critterbee wrote: "Teresa wrote: "Anyone feel sorry for the excise officer? He was just trying to do his job even if he was over zealous. Trying to make a name for himself. I felt for him a bit when he was trying to ..."Very well put - all the rest of the male relatives served to make Hugo shine brighter. And yes, Claud really was no harm - in fact his one weakness, besides appalling taste in clothes, was toying with lower class females, which actually helped make Hugo's big lie at the end plausible. Claud's trouble with the blacksmith and his sons sprang from his meddling with the daughter, providing a plausible alibi!
Susan in NC wrote: Very well put - all the rest of the male relatives served to make Hugo shine brighter. And yes, Claud really was no harm - in fact his one weakness, besides appalling taste in clothes, was toying with lower class females, which actually helped make Hugo's big lie at the end plausible. Claud's trouble with the blacksmith and his sons sprang from his meddling with the daughter, providing a plausible alibi! ."Was that considered to be such a bad thing at the time? I know in Friday's Child Montague was thought to be a creep for abandoning such a girl but we don't get the impression that Claud would do such a thing. The girl that he ran into in Rye was pleased to see him so we can't think that he was forcing himself on this lower class women.
Not that I approve of such behavior but it seems like for the time it was par for the course if a man was discrete.
What type of girl do you think Claud ended up with? One like his mother? Someone docile?
Sorry, shouldn't have said toying - I guess flirting would be more accurate!I think he's a "mama's boy" in the nicest possible way, so I picture him with a smart, dignified lady like his mother; he should be so lucky! I really liked her by the end.
Just finished listening to the section where Hugo conference Richmond in his bedroom after he pretended to be the ghost. I love how clever Hugo is to figure out what's really going on and take none of the BS from Richmond even though he lied through his teeth completely to Hugo.
That's the scene where I really started disliking Richmond...well, distrusting, and seeing there was an ugly selfishness and sort of instability.
Susan in NC wrote: "That's the scene where I really started disliking Richmond...well, distrusting, and seeing there was an ugly selfishness and sort of instability.""Instability" immediately reminded me of Cousin Kate and her cousin (how could I have forgotten his name?!), but Richmond was lucky in his mother.
Critterbee wrote: "Torquil!"That's it!!!
I remembered it because I had never heard of that name before Cousin Kate, but since then I saw it in a horrible 'regency' romance.
Critterbee wrote: "I remembered it because I had never heard of that name before Cousin Kate, but since then I saw it in a horrible 'regency' romance."I always think of it as a place in Cornwall!
Critterbee, can you remember if there was any discussion about why his name was Torquil? Knowing Minerva, it had to have a rich relation connotation!
Imagine having to go through life landed with that moniker!!! I think I'd be down the court house with a change of name form, pronto :):)
And your nickname could be Turkey! Wouldn't school be fun...
I don't remember any reason why he was named Torquil, but when I google it, I see that the name is from some Norse language, combining 'Thor' and 'sacrificial Cauldron'.
Critterbee wrote: "I don't remember any reason why he was named Torquil, but when I google it, I see that the name is from some Norse language, combining 'Thor' and 'sacrificial Cauldron'."Lol!
Makes me think of Hyacinth Bucket's Tarquin! He loves his mummy so...
The first time I read "Cousin Kate" and saw Torquil's name, I thought of Tarquin Olivier, Laurence Olivier's son/only child with his first wife.Both of these are odd names.
Susan in NC wrote: "Makes me think of Hyacinth Bucket's Tarquin! He loves his mummy so..."Wait! Isn't his name Sheridan? I can just hear her talking on the phone to him...
Oh right, I forgot - his "roommate" at school is Tarquin! I think Richard has caught on, but Hyacinth would toss her Royal Doulton with the hand-painted periwinkles...sad, but true!
She's so oblivious that it's hysterical.
I know, right?! How does poor Liz keep a straight face, especially when Hyacinth tells such whoppers about her family and lifestyle and Sheridan?!
She's too busy trembling and being afraid she's going to drop her beaker to notice! I love that Hyacinth won't let her have a real cup and saucer... poor Liz!
I know, right?! Hyacinth makes me thank heaven I have delightful neighbors!
Torquil was quite commonly used in Scotland in centuries past - not so much now. It would definitely be seen an an upper class name. I expect it was one of the names that Georgette Heyer collected when she and Ronald were enjoying one of their holidays here in Scotland!
And I imagine generations of young Scotsmen are glad it has passed out of fashion...;-)
Do you think that everyone banding together at the end will create a harmony in the family that they didn't previously have? I'd like it if everyone was a little friendlier to each other and I can see that after "surviving" the tragedy of Richmond getting shot and banding together they'll like each other better. I hope that Vincent won't be so mean spirited and will see that Claud has a great many good qualities. I'd like it if the brothers will have some affection or friendship for each other. Not necessarily best friends because I don't think they have enough similar interests for that but at least not the out and out hostility.
What could Hugo do to set Vincent up so he's not so dependent upon others? I think marriage to an heiress of modest means would do him well. Who from another book could we set him up with? Not Tiffany ... he's redeemed himself enough in the last few chapters to not deserve her any longer.
He needs someone smart and strong and rather no-nonsense, like Anthea or his mother, so she's not a doormat. Ideally someone who loves him passionately and doesn't want him under her thumb, though - he's had a lifetime of that with dear old granddad!
Somebody who can appreciate his sarcasm and who is so secure in herself that she can find him lovable and adorable.
Rosina wrote: "Confession - I like Vincent (probably not in real life, but not just as an interesting character, either)......He is perhaps a bit old to turn his hand to a career, even in politics,
It's interesting that we all see What To Do About Vincent as the main problem for a happy resolution in this book!
I wouldn't see him as too old to become a politician at all. He is only 29. That or marrying a heiress are his only prospects.
He should be a heir to a reasonable income from his mother though. He simply needs to learn to live within his means.
Karlyne wrote: "Somebody who can appreciate his sarcasm and who is so secure in herself that she can find him lovable and adorable."Yes, that's what I was getting at - adores him but won't let him walk on her!
Carol ♔Type, Oh Queen!♕ wrote: "Rosina wrote: "Confession - I like Vincent (probably not in real life, but not just as an interesting character, either)......He is perhaps a bit old to turn his hand to a career, even in politics..."
Yes - but it's the "living within his means" that seems to be the challenge!
Carol ♔Type, Oh Queen!♕ wrote: "Rosina wrote: "Confession - I like Vincent (probably not in real life, but not just as an interesting character, either)......He is perhaps a bit old to turn his hand to a career, even in politics..."
I rather like the idea of match between Vincent and Sophie Stanton-Lacy.
Shades of Rodgers & Hammerstein: "How do you solve a problem like our Vincent?" LOLSpeaking of R&H, I read years ago that one of Oscar Hammerstein's writing quirks was that he had a strong aversion to song lyrics that said, directly, "I love you." So he wrote around it --
People Will Say We're In Love
Something Good
If I Loved You
Some Enchanted Evening
Ten Minutes Ago I Met You
and so on.
Well, Heyer does that, in prose, with Hugo and Anthea. In Chapter 12, he makes a declaration without making a declaration. Anthea doesn't know what he's talking about when he says that he means to stay "if I get what I want ... I'll tell you what it is one of these days but I'm not so very sure I can get it yet. ... The thing is you might say I'd no hope of getting it ... That would never do!" But we know what he means.
Then in Chapter 13 they have a whole conversation about love and marriage without ever saying the words "I love you" or actually making, or accepting, a proposal. We know what's going on, and we know that by now they both know too, but it's such a delight to watch them dance around it.
Elza wrote: "Shades of Rodgers & Hammerstein: "How do you solve a problem like our Vincent?" LOLSpeaking of R&H, I read years ago that one of Oscar Hammerstein's writing quirks was that he had a strong aversi..."
That is such an interesting observation, Elza. Very true. And Hugo's line about giving her the moon seems very R&H.
I did feel a little sorry for Lt Ottershaw in the final scene, though I suspect if I read through it all again, I'd feel less sympathy (was it really necessary to shoot Richmond?). But of course, Lord Darracott is the one who bears the lion's share of the blame for the debacle and I was glad to see him chastened by the end.
This book belongs to a subgroup of Heyers that I can't seem to read quickly (see also: The Toll Gate and The Quiet Gentleman). No less agreeable for the slower pace, however. :)
Final point: I think Vincent deserves his own book, with the right heroine to put him in his place.
Sheila wrote: "Final point: I think Vincent deserves his own book, with the right heroine to put him in his place."Agreed!
Sheila wrote: "I did feel a little sorry for Lt Ottershaw in the final scene, though I suspect if I read through it all again, I'd feel less sympathy (was it really necessary to shoot Richmond?). But of course, Lord Darracott is the one who bears the lion's share of the blame for the debacle and I was glad to see him chastened by the end. ..."I felt sorry for Ottershaw, also. I mean, he was just doing his job--and he was right! How maddening it must be to know someone is guilty as all get-out, but you can't do anything about it! As a teacher, I've experienced that feeling myself a few times! ;)
The family closing ranks to try to protect Richmond is understandable, but it reminds me of that movie Scent of a Woman, where Al Pacino manages to make the school administration feel ashamed for demanding that the students who witnessed the crime committed by a couple of (loser) fellow students tell what they saw. The movie ends in vindication of the student who refused to speak and condemns the student who did, but, you know--that's directly opposed to our justice system, which also demands that witnesses speak up. Helping cover up a crime is just as much a crime as the crime itself.
They justify it in Ajax by predicting that Richmond will be a hell of an army officer someday, but to my way of thinking, he's already got some serious character flaws, thanks to his raising at his grandpa's knee! I don't see those going away anytime soon.
I think Lord Darracott got a pretty strong dose of reality with this event, but I really couldn't predict how it turns out. I'd like to think that he minds his p's and q's a little more in the future, but . . . a tiger doesn't change its stripes, either. Is he capable, at this late date, of change? Once Richmond leaves for the army, and some time has gone by, he may just become as irascible as ever!
I think Lord Darracott will only remain subdued for a very short time. After all those decades of ruling the roost, he's not going to change his spots after one setback. (How's that for mixing metaphors?) He'll find some way to blame Richmond's failings on someone else.
Sylvia wrote: "I think Lord Darracott will only remain subdued for a very short time. After all those decades of ruling the roost, he's not going to change his spots after one setback. (How's that for mixing meta..."Hey there are spotted roosters (Speckled Sussex) so your metaphors are "spot on".
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Howard you read my mind! And to your earlier comment (139), I agree, Hugo's wealth will allow him to take over many things, but I believe his innate decency will come through as he gives the old man due deference in matters that don't cause any harm, but allow Lord Darracott to shroud himself in the tatters of his remaining dignity...