The History Book Club discussion
THE SECOND WORLD WAR
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WE ARE OPEN - WEEK FIVE - MILITARY SERIES: HANNS AND RUDOLF - June 9th - June 15th - Chapter(s) Eight and Nine: 8: Hanns, London, England, 1939 and 9: Rudolf, Oswiecim, Upper Silesia, 1942 - (117 - 147) - No Spoilers, Please
Mod
However if we discuss folks outside the scope of the book or another book is cited which is not the book and author discussed then we do have to do that citation according to our citation rules. That makes it easier to not disrupt the discussion. Thought that I would add that.
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Chapter Eight - 8: Hanns, London, England, 1939
Hanns and Paul Alexander take a number 7 bus to the Royal Air Force recruitment office in Acton, west London and enlist. The British government was uncertain about how to deal with applications from newly arrived German refugees so their enlistment was at first delayed. Eventually, they became part of the Auxiliary Military Pioneer Corps. On May 11, 1940, the day after Holland fell to Germany, Hanns and his company arrived in Bruz, France as part of the British Expeditionary Force.
The Alexander family was very concerned about Auntie Bing who did not feel that she could cope with the adjustment of moving to an English-speaking country. In the meantime Hanns and Rudolf applied to the Officer Cadet Training Unit in Lincolnshire and both were accepted. Paul and Hanns meet up in France.
Chapter Nine - 9: Rudolf, Oswiecim, Upper Silesia, 1942
Rudolf in the meantime is busy experimenting with various killing methods at Auschwitz. He had been able up to this point to compartmentalize his life.
His only respite seemed to be with his horses. Auschwitz was expanded and Hoss employed an interesting pacifying strategy in putting together a camp orchestra.
Rudolf's family felt that the villa at Auschwitz was paradise - until Hedwig finds out the true nature of Rudolf's work and refuses to be intimate with him again. Rudolf finds solace with Eleanor Hodys - a non Jewish Austrian prisoner.
At the end of the summer of 1943 - Rudolf found himself at the pinnacle of his Kommandant career.
Mod
I have been reading this book with great delight and following along in the discussions, until Chapter 8 and 9.I made the mistake of reading these chapter before bed one night. My reading came to a screeching halt. There are so many haunting images.
On page 119, the comparison between "work conquers all" of the English Pioneer Corp and "work sets you free" at Auschwitz.
On page 121, I became angered to know that the Germans were set aside in England military, not trusted with weapons. This reminded me of the Black corps in the Civil War.
The final blow for me in these chapters was on page 132, as the prisoners were made to collect the fat as the bodies burned and added it to the top to accelerate the inferno.
Horrific!!!
Good for me to read even though it was hard. Harder for those living it.
Anger again on page 138, with the treatment of women prisoner. (something I was already aware of)
Mod
You have detailed four of those unsettling images.
I also had no idea that England dealt with the German Jewish immigrants in a similar fashion to the United States and the Japanese Internment Camps. At least it appeared that it was a short lived treatment but sad how suspicions in times of war lead to such things.
This was news to me, as well. The British really didn't know what to do with all these German immigrants coming ashore.
Mod
Just think recently to the huge numbers of Syrian refugees who are infiltrating all of the surrounding Middle Eastern countries because of the civil war raging there. The best they can do is to set up the camps which are abominable but better places than the alternative.
Bentley wrote: "It was a difficult time period and the problem is that the country's infrastructure cannot always absorb huge numbers of immigrants easily and this is exacerbated in the time of war.Just think re..."
That's what I thought too. Thankfully, they accepted them or even worse, deported them back.
The most chilling...no, one of the most chilling (there are so many!) moments was near the end of chapter 9, when Hedwig said living there was "paradise."
Mod
I was surprise to read that Hedwig was basically okay with what was happening. I had assumed until this week's reading that she didn't know about the deaths. I would have expected that she'd put up a fuss and want to move away, but I guess that Rudolf had her so brainwashed that she believed what he was doing was the right thing to do for Germany. I didn't know about the British internment camps but was not surprised about them. Besides the US Japanese internment camps, we had them for other nationalities too. In southern Colorado, there was the Granada War Relocation Center aka Camp Amache for Japanese Americans and Camp Carson (now Ft. Carson) started out as an internment camp for Italian and German POWs. I can understand that the British government wanted to be careful of who they were letting in. It's unfortunate for those that were seeking asylum and any ill treatment was not OK but I can understand the concern.
I don't see how anyone could have claimed not to know what was going on...all those people who were brought to this tiny town and then just disappeared - and the smell? Burned flesh has a very distinct odor. But I think many people were conditioned to believe that the extermination of others was necessary for Germany to survive. That is something I have read in many other books about the Holocaust.The internment of enemies has been done throughout history...not to say that it is "right" but this was wartime and it would be almost impossible to vet every single person who could have been a threat. I think we forget that war requires a different code of ethics...
Tomi wrote: "I don't see how anyone could have claimed not to know what was going on...all those people who were brought to this tiny town and then just disappeared - and the smell? Burned flesh has a very dis..."I thought about that, too. I imagine that the smells could have been masked by the aluminum and rubber factories in which the prisoners worked. Those are some pretty nasty smelly places. Also, since the camps were located in occupied Poland, I wonder if the local populations were either moved or intimidated into silence? Some camps, like the Treblinka, were in remote locations in which there was very little if any local populace, so smell would not have been an issue.
Tomi wrote: "I don't see how anyone could have claimed not to know what was going on...all those people who were brought to this tiny town and then just disappeared - and the smell? Burned flesh has a very dis..."Very well put Tomi........it was a time of "war" killing and dealing with the opponents...enemy..possible enemy..in an extremely antisocial fashion is the accepted code of the day.
Indeed, in war, the culture changes quickly where the government is hyper-sensitive to any threat, and that is when rights get violated. You understand why, but it is a big price you pay.
Mod
@Bryan - it does seem that "environment and culture" play a role in people morphing into very undesirable versions of themselves in war.
Bryan hit it exactly -a big price you pay. I know many people were intimidated by the power of the Nazi machine. They had seen the huge rallies and knew how hard it was to stand alone against the Nazis. I always told my students that it would be easier to stand up against evil if I only had to worry about myself, but when my family was threatened, I would not be as brave.
David wrote: "I also had no idea that England dealt with the German Jewish immigrants in a similar fashion to the United States and the Japanese Internment Camps. At least it appeared that it was a short lived ..."I think that is a bad comparison - the American Japanese were often US citizens - these were Germans who were German nationals and it was logical to be wary.
My ex-boss was about 17 at the time, a German, in a British boarding school, and was rounded up as were all Germans, and sorted out - he being 17 (his mother was Jewish but this made little difference as few knew or believed the atrocities being planned or carried out) - and being of military age he was not sent back to Germany to be given a gun but was interned to Canada (where he got a college education while in the "camp" he was in. - From McGill University and that degree served him well) the only hardship he suffered was short term uncertainty and one day waiting for the ship to leave when food was not organized and they got hungry waiting.
So many of the Germans in England were not there for years such as the Alexanders and if one thought that Hitler intended to invade one should have thought that some of those who arrived in the past year might well be German agents.
I found these chapters giving meat to the individuals - especially Hanns who was, given the chronological sequencing is always younger than Rudolf.on 118 we see (para 3) the irony that these folks stripped of their German citizenship if captured would be "viewed as traitors and shot".
I also see the upbringing and expectations and ambitions of the Alexander boys in that both of them went to officer school when they could and got to be officers. They "paid their dues" in the Pioneer corps.
The Rudolf chapter illustrates how the Germans - seemingly led by Rudolf - fine tuned their killing & disposal systems.
P 132 Rudolf says it was difficult for him-- well maybe but that is a joke statement compared to the Sonderkommandos who had to clean up - or the victims - my Lord - later on it says he had "gloomy moods" really??
But the Germans - the soldiers - bought into this - they must have believed the Jews were sub-human - they must have believed they could have been a cause of German problems - but how could they accept to kill them all - the children?
And pg 143 did real doctors really sort out the prisoners? was doctor the title they were given or was it people who had worked as physicians at any time in their lives?
And poor Eleanor - and we only know her status till the end of 1943. We may not ever know more about her.
Mod
We ask how could folks have not known and so many other folks before us in the years since the war have asked the same thing. I think the mind believes what it needs to believe in order for the person or persons to survive and live.
I am not sure I believe Rudolf as much as I like to give everybody the benefit of the doubt. I know that I would have more than gloomy moods if I were Rudolf.
Sad horrific times.
I don't know what I could possibly say or contribute to the discussion of these two chapters, other than to repeat how horrible it is. I could barely read it.
Teri wrote: "I was surprise to read that Hedwig was basically okay with what was happening. I had assumed until this week's reading that she didn't know about the deaths. I would have expected that she'd put ..."However, according to Rudolf she refused to have sex with him. He seemed to imply it was because of what he was doing. Or maybe he tells the story to justify that he has his tawdry affair with an inmate.
G wrote: "I don't know what I could possibly say or contribute to the discussion of these two chapters, other than to repeat how horrible it is. I could barely read it."I agree. It is a re-read for me. I read the whole book before discussions began (I keep up better that way). The second read was even more devastating than the first. The most chilling thing was the creation of the orchestras to lull the inmates and keep them mollified. It afforded some prisoners time so they were not killed. But I can't help but find the whole thing oddly sadistic.
P.S. There was a movie made in 1980 called "Playing for Time" --it can be found at: Playing for Time at the Internet Movie Database. It's the story of the All Women's Orchestra. There is also a play based on the movie script by the same author:
by Arthur Miller
I feel I must also mention the book from which it all sprang:
by Fania Fénelon, who wrote the screenplay with Author Miller. A friend played a role in the movie and said it was an experience of a life time.
Sherry wrote: "P.S. There was a movie made in 1980 called "Playing for Time" --it can be found at: Playing for Time at the Internet Movie Database. It's the story of the All Women's Orchestra. There is also a ..."Thank you, Sherry. I had not known about the orchestras before. These chapters were very difficult reading and the horrors described are almost impossible to fathom.
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Yes G it was extremely difficult reading and I understand your feelings. Very sad.
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It seems to me that he was trying to state that his basic needs were not met - therefore he sought solace elsewhere - he got his wife off the hook with her disgust with what he was doing - while at the same time weaving a tale to explain his affair - I suspect.
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I agree. It is a re-read f..."
Very upsetting Sherry - music which is so beautiful set against the backdrop of such horrors. It is like the orchestra playing on the Titanic - only a zillion times worse.
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Sherry - much better to type your comment normally and place citations at the bottom of the comment box - makes for easier reading.
by Fania Fénelon (no photo)
Vince wrote: "I found these chapters giving meat to the individuals - especially Hanns who was, given the chronological sequencing is always younger than Rudolf.on 118 we see (para 3) the irony that these folks..."
In all of this there is this imposition of an "attitude of hate." This has haunted me in the reading of this. In order to make the prison staff follow orders they resorted to instilling an "attitude of hate."
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Tomi wrote: "The most chilling...no, one of the most chilling (there are so many!) moments was near the end of chapter 9, when Hedwig said living there was "paradise.""I also found the idea of a 'paradise' in that place as horrifying (as so many things in this book), but it is also consistent with how normal those who were involved in the camps treated their crimes. I think its treating mass murder as just another (albeit important) task. Its not the hate the is horrifying, its the banality of it all.
Mod
Harry wrote: "It will happen again."It already has. The act is the same whether it's one or 6 million. At least we now have a name for it. We call them "hate crimes."
Sherry wrote: "Harry wrote: "It will happen again."It already has. The act is the same whether it's one or 6 million. At least we now have a name for it. We call them "hate crimes.""
Hi Sherry
Thanks for your input.
I have to see a big difference between this and hate crimes.
Genocide is done by a large force or a government/country - one person can do hate crimes.
Genocide is aimed at all the accessible people of a group or persuasion - hate crimes by individuals can be very selective
Hate crimes can be abhored by a society - genocide is a society or group joint effort not an individual or small group.
Just my view - only one course in sociology in my past.
But this is so much more than a hate crime where one can go to the police or authoriities etc.
Vince wrote: "Sherry wrote: "Harry wrote: "It will happen again."It already has. The act is the same whether it's one or 6 million. At least we now have a name for it. We call them "hate crimes.""
Hi Sherry..."
I agree with you, and I know the meaning of the word, "genocide," but the "attitude of hate" is the same. And just as we see it in one person, Rudolf, it catches fire with likeminded haters until it explodes in the persecution of a group of people just because of who and what they represent. Just my perception.
It really is difficult to fathom the dichotomy of Rudolf. A family man who enjoyed horse riding juxtaposed with the creation of a facility to kill over 4,000 people in a day. Baffling.
Another thing I thought was odd was how close Hanns and Paul were during their time in France. Even though they had different jobs, they still were stationed close together.
Mod
I in no way mean to make light of the unbelievable atrocities in these chapters, but I found the section about the orchestra strange and just plain creepy. Thanks for the link Sherry, it sounds like an interesting read.
Mod
They were trying to make "hell" - "heaven" - and of course that is what makes it disgusting. However, the only bright spot if we could say that there was any bright spot was that the orchestra musicians were talented and accomplished and this kept them alive for a bit longer or even may have saved them.
I agree, guys, it probably did save some musicians lives, but I like your analogy to the Titanic: creepy and odd. I agree that Rudolf felt this was a pacifying tool.
Powerful chapters. Quite disturbing and painful.
Melinda wrote: "Powerful chapters. Quite disturbing and painful."Perfect description, Melinda.
Incredible to imagine, though perhaps there is some of this in all of us, that Rudolf, at the same time as he is extinguishing hundreds, is concerned that he is perceived as being a good example of leadership (page 132).
The handling of new arrivals described on pages 134-5 is a scene right out of hell. Whether Rudolf & Co. believed they were justified or not, if there is any morality or ethics in the universe, their acts were contrary to any sense of morality and necessitated punishment to the fullest...which even so, in no way paid for the unprecedented torture, upheaval, carnage, and brutal evil that they carried out across untold families and communities.
If anything brings me close to vomiting, it might be Rudolf's comment on page 139, where he said that he couldn't complain that life was boring at Auschwitz. Tearing families limb from limb, driving unsupportable terror into people's lives, extracting every ounce of all that is worthwhile in life from the prisoners, rationalizing the most vicious and painful brutality...and he ponders the question of boredom. I doubt if any punishment would be adequate to what he earned by his behavior.
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For the week of June 9th - June 15th, we are reading Chapters Eight and Nine of Hanns and Rudolf..
The fifth week's reading assignment is:
Week Five - June 9th - June 15th
8: Hanns, London, England, 1939 and 9: Rudolf, Oswiecim, Upper Silesia, 1942
(117 - 147)
We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.
This book was kicked off on May 12th.
We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, local bookstore or on your Kindle. Make sure to pre-order now if you haven't already. This weekly thread will be opened up on June 9th.
There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.
Bentley will be leading this discussion and back-up will be Assisting Moderators Jerome, Kathy and Libby.
Welcome,
~Bentley
TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL
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Notes:
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If you need help - here is a thread called the Mechanics of the Board which will show you how:
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Introduction Thread:
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Table of Contents and Syllabus
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Q&A with Thomas Harding (the author):
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Glossary
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Book as a Whole and Final Thoughts - SPOILER THREAD
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Directions on how to participate in a book offer and how to follow the t's and c's - Hanns and Rudolf - What Do I Do Next?
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