What's going on in the world? Let's work it out.

[Laureen]

That's where our instincts come in Adam. We have an inner knowing. Animals know how to get food, how to protect their young, how to find shelter and they don't speak English or Russian or human talk.

[Laureen]

Well, thinking, consciousness, is a human gift. Or is it? Maybe we overthink too much. Silence of the mind has a lot of benefits, I think.

[[deleted user]]

I don't think we can survive perfectly without thinking.....it depends on our environment and abilities... like plants survive without thinking I guess but can this be applied for all animals specially humans? human beings don't have other abilities like other animals, so they'll have to think in order to survive....babies survive without thinking as there r people surrounding it who can think....
and I guess memory can be there without language..... like people who can't listen or talk, they don't have memory?
I think if language was not there, we would have memories like a silent movie playing...

[Holly]

Babies understand language at a very early stage in development. It takes months before their motor skills catch up to their brains to allow them to speak and communicate.

[Lance, Group Founder]

I have a feeling that babies think albeit in rudimentary fashion and not with the sophistication that comes with knowledge/mastery of language. Their (our) ability to think would increase from birth day by day even if words aren't part of their daily experience.

Surely thought is required to make sense of the very first word (such as "Mama") a baby learns.

Language is just one by-product of thinking although I admit there must be a fine line tween thought and instinct... or am I over-thinking this?

I feel a headache coming on. Must take my medication...

[Lance, Group Founder]

Hey Adam – Interesting discussion. Thanks for raising it.

So at what point is a person first capable of thought? Is it when he or she understands his or her first word? Is it at nine months, one year, 18 months?

I understand babies can understand a few basic words like "no" and "bye-bye" at nine months, and most can say their first word – usually “mama” or “dada” if they’re destined to be English-speaking – by 12 months.

If that’s correct a person would be capable of thought or thinking at one year or possibly nine months, according to your logic if I understand you correctly. Through thought, a baby would associate “mama” with the nice lady it sees fussing over it each day.

If you agree with that, are you suggesting that the day before a baby arrives at that realisation, it ain’t capable of thought?

I doubt that’s the case. In the very early stages of life, instinct would prompt a baby to cry when hungry; with the passing of days, weeks or perhaps months it would surely start thinking, “If I cry real loud that poor exhausted woman who is run off her feet and looks older every time I see her will come and feed me” even though it couldn’t articulate those thoughts.

I imagine the moms in this group will know the answer to this better than either of us. Let's hear it from the moms... I'm interested to know what they think.

Must away… it’s medication time!

[Lance, Group Founder]

Adam, you asked early on, “How can one possibly think without language?”

Experts say human language probably started to develop around 100,000 years ago. However, depending on who you listen to, early Homo Sapiens like us go back almost six million years…
So according to your theory they’d have been incapable of thought.

Maybe you place too much emphasis on structured language.
I suspect someone born into an environment without language (as Early Man was) would create a unique language exclusive to himself/herself to make sense of things. Same goes for babies. The gobbly-gook they speak may make perfect sense to them... just as the gobbly-gook Trump speaks makes sense to him (mmmmaybe).

Any linguists in the group?

[[deleted user]]

Adam, for survival every animal must have a special skill.... so if humans don't think, they'll not be able to survive in front of other animals who have other skills that human don't have....babies don't have any problem as they have others around them...... who can think!

and say for example u hear a tune, u need any language to remember that?

[[deleted user]]

that's a pretty interesting situation.... I don't think we'll be able to do anything (?)....can we even walk without thinking? no I guess..... as when we meditate, we don't think... so we don't move too... (?)

[James, Group Founder]

Do you even need to think to post on Goodreads? :)

[[deleted user]]

u can definitely do certain actions based on your reflexes, but I don't think u can do anything else without thinking......
without thinking survival will be like continuously meditating throughout your life .....not a good idea!

[[deleted user]]

that's not possible actually...... without thought life cannot continue normally.......but if it really happens, then it will be clear that we r artificially designed and all our actions are programmed by some superior civilization.....i e we r living in a matrix....

[[deleted user]]

and it's not possible to read the message without thinking.....

[[deleted user]]

pretty complicated stuff..... but I think that by God ancient people meant something (or someone) has designed the laws of physics.... and we r basically doing according to that only..... I don't think they meant that God is manipulating our daily activities..... but if someone is manipulating us, then that must be some advanced civilization..... not the God religion is talking about (???)...I Am confused!

[[deleted user]]

don't know about animals....but I guess higher animals can think and lower animals act based on their reflexes....
and I think babies also act like that...they don't do some serious work, all they do is crying or uttering sounds....that's their small and simple way of reacting.... so can we say that they r artificially designed?

[Nitin]

As you may or may not know, there has been some weird stuff going on in the world for the past...well, I guess forever, but it’s been getting pretty excessive recently. It’s a little scary, since every day we wake up with what feels like a whole new terrifying situation. With all of this going on, it can be really hard to keep up. I get it. You might not want to admit it, but listening to the news and staying informed can get exhausting, and can really take a toll on your mental health. Your first instinct might be to ignore it all completely, but I’m going to tell you not to do that.

While it can be pretty crappy to learn about all of the bad things happening in the world, it’s important to stay updated so that you can help keep yourself and others informed. But, how do you do that when a hundred new things are happening every day?It’s really intimidating to sit down with a newspaper, since there is SO MUCH news happening. How can you possibly digest it all? I know it’s hard, but there are some ways to stay updated on the world without wanting to pull your hair out (maybe). Check out these easy ways to keep yourself updated on the current events of the world. Oh, and remember to breathe!

[[deleted user]]

nice thought... :-)

[[deleted user]]

unicellular organisms can't have a brain as they have 1 cell only.....
and if u say living beings, then plants r there

[[deleted user]]

I can't say I understood his words completely..... but some questions arises.... how is he remembering stuff without thinking?..... like if u ever forget something, u try to remember by thinking about it right?.....and without thinking, he apparently became smarter??
some conclusions can be...
* the man has some unknown psychological disorder for which he loses thinking power for SOME time and again gets it back without realizing it.....or he has lost thinking power in some areas only

* we r artificially designed

* the man has some misunderstanding and so he "thinks" that he can't think...

[[deleted user]]

that's a valid point..... why sometimes some complex thoughts instantly come in mind without even thinking?

and I guess when we speak, we don't have to think because of one thing and that's practice.... for example if u r asked to add 2 and, 2, the answer instantly comes to mind because of years of practice..... same with language and reading.... when we read, we basically connect a symbol with an alphabet with its pronunciation,it's almost instantenious....but if u speak a foreign language, difficulty arises.....
but same thing cannot be applied to some instantaneous random comment..... so what's the case?

[Elisabet]

Reading through all the comments, I'm confused of how there can be a sensible explanation to the discussion, as it appears that the idea of thinking is used interchangibly between the lingual defintion of thinking and the more intuitive definition of thinking.

Certainly these are two separate definition that cannot be interpreted to be the same? Just like a reflexive reaction is not the same as a planned reaction.....even though both are considered to be reactions.

[Harry]

I must admit, I don't get the Gary Weber thing at all. To say he's found some sort of intuitive thinking and a meditative place within a clear mind is all good and well, but to claim he's not actually thinking is something else!

[[deleted user]]

of course free will is an illusion..... NO ONE or NOTHING can go beyond laws of science.... a person will always act according to science only

[Harry]

I don't see that free will has anything to do with thinking, but I get where you're coming from Adam.

i.e:
I think: Shall I have a cup of tea? I can make the decision to answer yes or no and act accordingly. Did I have free will to think that and make the decision or was it pre-destined? Quantum physics will say I both did and didn't have a cup of tea and spawned a new universe by doing so.

But whether we have free will or not is obviously an age old debate to which there is no definite answer to.

I think because I am. And maybe I am because I think. But I don't see that as having anything to do with concepts of free will.

But I do have a poem in a book of mine that reads:

"Did we think in words before there were words?
Without words, what did thoughts sound like?
Did the Word invade the peacefulness of our minds?
The great Logos of the psych."

So, this is a matter I've, um, thought about lots - and can see where you're coming from.

I still think that the idea that Gary Weber isn't thinking is bullshit though. He's having conversations, he's saying words, therefore he thinks. :)

[Harry]

Adam wrote: "If it's so obvious, why does 'Underground Knowledge - A discussion group' exist?

Why worry about MK Ultra, the Georgia Guidestones, and the rest?

Obviously, the Georgia Guidestones were erected b..."


Eh? :)

There's no obvious answer - we can't know if things are pre-destined or if we have free will.

And even if we don't have free will, then I don't see that as equating to 'no stress etc.' - as our stress etc. would have been pre-destined. :)

And I DO find it pretty worrying if we don't have free will!

[[deleted user]]

guys, whatever we do it's because our society or our genes..... which are all governed by laws of science..... even if we think others r not manipulating us, genes r... so free will is a myth..

[Harry]

Adam wrote: "They're lovely words. I've copied them down... hope you don't mind!"

Thank you Adam - and not at all.

"And you've made a good point: Think about everything you've done and said today - and prove to me that you could have done differently."

Well, obviously I can't. But quantum physics could 'prove' I have played out every choice - not that I necessarily personally believe that.

But surely you agree that if we don't have free will, thought would be entirely unnecessary?

Can't say I do concur, no. Let's say that a fictional character in a film is real, as far as he is concerned, and with every line he says, he is also thinking, when in actuality it would be the screenwriter who had pre-ordained his thoughts and actions. It could be claimed we are no different. If there is no free will, that doesn't mean 'the author' (God or whatever) hadn't preordained our thinking, and it doesn't mean it would be unnecessary to think, any more than it would be unnecessary to do actions.

Well, that's what my pre-ordained thoughts from God told me to say anyway. ;)

[Harry]

Krishna wrote: "guys, whatever we do it's because our society or our genes..... which are all governed by laws of science..... even if we think others r not manipulating us, genes r... so free will is a myth.."

So you're saying your genes told you whether to post that comment or not? ;)

[[deleted user]]

yes I guess..... :D

[Harry]

Adam wrote: "So, logically: Bill absolutely believes that free will is an illusion; Bill absolutely understands that he does not need to feel guilt and regret for his past actions; Bill continues to feel guilt and regret for his past actions; Bill does not have free will.


Ha! Yes. :)

Bill's belief and his opposing feeling of regret COULD mean both were pre-destined. :)


Personally, I believe that the question of pre-destination and free will shouldn't be looked at as an 'either or' question, when from "God (whatever that is)'s point of view", such dualistic questions which arise from human perspectives only are null and void. :)

[Harry]

Krishna wrote: "yes I guess..... :D"

Do I detect some doubt creeping in...? :)

[[deleted user]]

yes doubt is there.. :)

it'll better for Bill if he feels sorry for his actions as he lives in a society and then other people will also not feel sorry for harming him... so he should THINK

[Harry]

Don't worry, your doubt's probably pre-ordained. :)

[[deleted user]]

see, programming each and every event of so many people with different ideas is a pretty hard task.... so he gave us the power to think (like artificial intelligence) so that his work becomes much easier.....but he has made it sure that we don't break laws of physics and thus we don't have free will....

[Lance, Group Founder]

Are we in danger of over-thinking this?

[Iona]

Adam wrote: "Hi Krishna,

>> Krishna. Okay, so see it as a hypothetical question for now. If you woke up one morning, completely devoid of thought, and found that your life continued perfectly normally (stretch..."

Thanks, Adam for the link. Interesting! I don't think much, can choose not to think, with words anyway.

[Ray]

The brain is a complex neural network, continually balancing itself between chaos and stability. This lets it direct our actions meaningfully but also allows for a degree of freedom in the thoughts we have.

I've noticed that a new thought will sometimes occur when I'm not thinking of anything. This can be just a neuron firing at random and causing other nearby neurons to correlate or make sense of it. At other times, a new thought will be sparked because I'm experiencing something. A whole cascade can form, one thing leads to another, one thought leads to another. If you live an interesting life and learn many things, you can make your mind a fertile ground for new thoughts to germinate and grow, for even a random thought to find purchase on nearby useful streams of consciousness.

I was walking slowly and saw someone rushing, and I thought, what if I rushed around too? What if I was manic about my time? And then out of nowhere I realized that there are things one can't rush, and part of a short story emerged over the next five minutes.

So I'm comfortable believing that creativity can grow from tiny sparks due to the inherent degree of random freedoms our brains permit. It's like an informatic analogue of evolution -- mutations occur, most are noise, but some are beneficial. Thoughts are born, grow, and die. Sometimes they come together and one thought may kill another, but sometimes, like lovers, they help each other grow and even birth more thoughts.

[Lance, Group Founder]

As Marcus Aurelius said, “Very little is needed to make a happy life; it is all within yourself, in your way of thinking.”

Then again, as the great Bruce Lee once said, “If you spend too much time thinking about a thing, you’ll never get it done.”

I’m with Bruce on this one.

[Ray]

Adam wrote: You write very well. I think you're a poet... you just don't know it.

Ha, thanks. I actually wrote a bunch, even my latest book starts with a poem. :)

Just realized, the thoughts-as-living-things metaphor might explain why writers have such a hard time editing: they can't bring themselves to kill their children. :)

[Ray]

Oh, just came across this interesting article on Digg:

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/mag...

[Laureen]

Does awareness require thinking? Sorry if this has been brought up before. Just got here.

[Lance, Group Founder]

Adam wrote: "Ray: Interesting read.

Laureen: Interesting question!

As far as I'm concerned, your awareness (consciousness) is all you really are. Everything else you consider to be part of you, including your..."

It sounds relevant to the discussion Adam so post away!