Ghost in the Shell live action movie

[Tamahome]

I liked it. It took a lot of images from the original animated movie, and made it a bit more relatable. Plus Scarlet walked like a badass.

[Trike]

Hopefully it's the last tone-deaf whitewashing megaflop and the studios get the message.

Ha! I can't believe I got through that sentence with a straight face.

Anyway, here's an interview with four Japanese actresses about this movie and whitewashing in general: http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat...

[Rick]

So tired of the whitewashing stuff. Got it, message received but nothing is going to change for this movie. Now that the film is out I'd like to know if it's good.

AS for the actresses, none of them could have carried a big budget movie. I don't know of a Japanese actress who could have. Of course, that's somewhat a self-fulfilling thing... if they don't cast Japanese actresses none will become famous enough to carry future films

[Trike]

Rick wrote: "So tired of the whitewashing stuff. Got it, message received but nothing is going to change for this movie."

Uncomfortable, isn't it? Yet totally deserved.

[Tamahome]

They asked Margot Robbie first!

[John (Nevets)]

I've liked Scarlet as an actress since the Ghost World adaptation, and "Lost in Translation". I've enjoyed the Ghost in the Shell franchise for decades ( with the exception of the most recent animated reboots). But, I've decided not to see this in the theater because of this issue. I know one lost $8 dollar ticket isn't going to change a thing, but I'm doing it anyway.

[Darren]

The Major is a blue-eyed cyborg, at least in the anime I saw. I never read the comic. So I can't really compare this to say, Emma Stone in Aloha.

I don't want to see it just because she's so awful in action scenes. Why does Hollywood keep giving her action roles? It's the Ben Affleck riddle all over again...

[Tamahome]

I think Scarlet looked just like Motoko. Although I'm not a big fan of fast cut action scenes period, especially cgi enhanced.

[Aaron]

I'm seeing it this weekend, I heard it's pretty good if you forget the source material and just watch it as a standalone movie, will report back. I expect the action to be cool as heck and the plot and characters to be bleh.

@Daren
The Major is pretty clearly Japanese in the anime though, just has blue eyes too because anime.

As far as whitewashing, I just like to see new actors but Hollywood doesn't want to make that decision for good or bad. It's not even about it will make less money, it's that it is perceived to make less money. Here is the thing if a movie fails and you followed the rules it's not your fault it's just a flop those happen. If a movie fails and you ignored the rules your gone it's all your fault. Sure if you succeed that's great and you will get credit but the suceess will often be attributed to luck or something else other than challenging the understood wisdom. While it's about sports and not Hollywood alot of the same applies to this as well and I highly recommend the read.
Scorecasting: The Hidden Influences Behind How Sports Are Played and Games Are Won

[John (Taloni)]

My friends who are into anime say it's pretty good. Looks like a bad adaptation to me so I planned on giving it a pass, but with my friends liking it perhaps I'll watch when it gets to Netflix.

Not every "flop" actually is. I enjoyed John Carter well enough even though it wasn't particularly faithful to the source material. John Carter was reported as a huge flop, but wasn't. The "loss" had to do with Theatrical right (overblown) expectations versus reality. I crunched the numbers once and concluded John Carter made money by the end of its Pay TV / Free TV second cycle run.

[Tamahome]

Little known fact. When Motoko was younger, she was actually Ramona from Scott Pilgrim:

[Sean]

Darren wrote: "The Major is a blue-eyed cyborg, at least in the anime I saw. I never read the comic. So I can't really compare this to say, Emma Stone in Aloha. "

She has pink eyes in the manga. Hair and eye color in anime and manga are largely meaningless as racial markers. The only exception is blonde hair and blue eyes usually (but not always) indicates whiteness.

For instance, all these characters are all Japanese:



Just like Americans can look at Marge Simpson and see a white woman even though she has yellow skin and blue hair, the Japanese view anime and manga characters as Japanese by default. Characters of other races are denoted through exaggerated racial features -- for white people, this usually takes the form or narrow eye, knobby cheeks and a prominent brow ridge.

[Trike]

John (Taloni) wrote: "Not every "flop" actually is. I enjoyed John Carter well enough even though it wasn't particularly faithful to the source material. John Carter was reported as a huge flop, but wasn't. The "loss" had to do with Theatrical right (overblown) expectations versus reality. I crunched the numbers once and concluded John Carter made money by the end of its Pay TV / Free TV second cycle run."

There's no way John Carter made money. It might break even eventually, but I wouldn't bet on it. I mean, that thing cost $250 million BEFORE marketing, which was another $100 million minimum. Minimum.

Considering that it made most of its box office overseas, that means it did even more poorly than it seems on the face of it. Studios keep about 80-90% of opening weekend in the US, with the percentage dropping each week thereafter. (That's why theaters love movies like Titanic which hang around for 3 months: they keep the lion's share of each ticket sold.) Overseas, studios generally keep 20-25% of the box office, as a general rule of thumb.

Best case scenario, Disney maybe made $100 million on their likely $400 million investment. There's no amount of home video and TV rights that can make up for that shortfall. Only the biggest-selling movies like Avengers, Avatar and Star Wars make anywhere near that kind of money. It would take a miracle for John Carter to earn $100 million in its secondary life, because the ancillary broadcast rights are based on what it did at the box office.

[Mark]

I liked it ... I thought it was good but not great. Visual stunning movie ... and the effects aren't bad either (ba dum *tsh*). But seriously, I'm a little surprised at the low box office returns. I'm not entirely convinced its due to the "whitewashing" element but it seems once a movie gets some negative buzz, its done for ...

[Tamahome]

It's #3 with 18 million (http://rottentomatoes.com). I'd take it. I can see people coming in fresh getting confused by it...

[Sean]

John (Taloni) wrote: "My friends who are into anime say it's pretty good."

It is ... by the standards of live action anime adaptations, which, remember, includes Speed Racer and Dragonball, not to mention a million shitty Japanese films starring the members of boy bands with their hair done up to exactly match the illustrations.

[Gary]

Frankly, it's crap. I didn't hate it—an emotion I'm reserving for 21st century Star Wars films—but it's a bog-standard Hollywood crapdaptation from film makers who think the audience is dumb, so they toss out all the intellekshul stuff, throw in some standard villains who are villainous and then have a lot of background effects, so the audience can be distracted away from the dumbed-down dialogue. And who the hell forgot to put lip gloss on ScarJo before every shot? That's, like, three quarters of her acting technique.

[John (Nevets)]

Despite what I said before the one thing I'm curious if they took from both of the animated movies is the gorgeous cinematography, and pacing that allowed it to shine. I'm not talking about mimicking shot for shot remakes of the action scenes that made the trailer, but the cutaway scenic shots that totally made both movies breathtaking.

I really should rewatch those this weekend if I'm not going to the theater.

[Darren]

Sean wrote: "Darren wrote: "The Major is a blue-eyed cyborg, at least in the anime I saw. I never read the comic. So I can't really compare this to say, Emma Stone in Aloha. "

She has pink eyes in the manga. H..."

Did you not read the part where I wrote "cyborg"?

[Stephen]

Scarlet got me in" We Brought a Zoo." She was alright in the Avenger movies. Do not care about the Whitewashing issue because there is a major Japanese Movie Industry that can make it if they want to.

[Sean]

Darren wrote: "Did you not read the part where I wrote "cyborg"? "

That's not particularly relevant since she's supposed to appear human. The question of what race she's depicted as is no different from a fully human anime or manga character, and as such having blue (or pink) eyes doesn't tell us anything.

Stephen wrote: "Do not care about the Whitewashing issue because there is a major Japanese Movie Industry that can make it if they want to."

That's great for Japanese actors, but small comfort for Asian-Americans who rarely get considered for lead roles in major Hollywood films. Johansson has no shortage of roles to choose from, but here she is taking one of the rare roles that could've gone to a Japanese-American actress.

[Rick]

Sean - honest question... which Asian American actress do you think could have carried the lead in a big budget film like this?

NOTE: I'm not saying there aren't Asian American or even Japanese American actresses with the chops to pull it off. I'm sure there are. But I almost think that the studios need to level them up vs plucking one and putting her at the head of a huge film like this. For example, having one as part of a Justice League or future Marvel film or other action franchise (if we're talking making her an action star).

PS: One of the reasons I kind of hate this topic on Ghost... is that we've been beating this to death for what, almost 2 years? Is anyone (myself included) saying anything new?

[Darren]

Sean wrote: "Darren wrote: "Did you not read the part where I wrote "cyborg"? "

That's not particularly relevant since she's supposed to appear human. The question of what race she's depicted as is no differen..."

How convenient of you to decide what's relevant. Or were you implying that non-ethnically Japanese don't appear human? She's a cyborg. She can look like whatever the makers wanted her to.

[Trike]

Rick wrote: "Sean - honest question... which Asian American actress do you think could have carried the lead in a big budget film like this?

NOTE: I'm not saying there aren't Asian American or even Japanese Am..."

Challenge Accepted.

The first one who comes to mind is Kelly Hu. Not only is she an excellent actress but she's also a bonafide martial artist and has dance training. She's done everything from romantic comedies to action films. Geeks probably know her best as Lady Deathstrike in the X-Men movies and China White in Arrow. The only downside is that she's pushing 50, which limits future installments to the franchise. She can pass for Japanese.

There are some others who have the acting chops, such as Brenda Song, who was really great as Eduardo's batshit crazy girlfriend in The Social Network, but they don't actually look Japanese. I know a lot of white people can't tell the difference between Koreans, Chinese, Vietnamese, etc., but there are differences, just as there are differences between Italians, Greeks and Egyptians or Swedes, Germans and Poles. Those differences might be slight to outsiders, but they do exist.

That said, there are plenty of actors who have a non-specific look that allows them to play various ethnicities. The brilliant New Zealand actor Cliff Curtis is a chameleon. I've seen him play American Latinos, Colombian drug lord Pablo Escobar, an Iraqi doctor, an Indian guru, a Mexican, and, once, even a Maori, which is what he actually is.

Constance Wu (Fresh Off the Boat) isn't Japanese but she could pass. She definitely has the ability to pull off such a role. Now that I think on it, I'd offer the part of Major to her first. She can play subtle comedy as well as broad slapstick, which Johanssen has trouble with.

Karen Fukuhara is legit Japanese-American, and she knows martial arts, too. She was in Suicide Squad as Katana. I don't have a sense of her as an actress, but I'd at least give her an audition.

Kimiko Glenn from Orange is the New Black is a superb actress. Also half Japanese and looks it. Because she's so petite I don't know if she's necessarily perfect for this specific role but I'd want her to read for it, because she's stellar. I could easily see her as Battle Angel Alita, though.

These are just the ones I can think off of the top of my head. Wu, Song and Hu command your attention when they're on screen, which is half the work for being a movie star.

[Stephen]

Yes, then get funding for that film. First thing first, the idea, then the funding. You want a big budget movie. None of those actresses will attach the investors, period.

[Rick]

Trike wrote: "Rick wrote: "Sean - honest question... which Asian American actress do you think could have carried the lead in a big budget film like this?

NOTE: I'm not saying there aren't Asian American or eve..."

Good list but you skipped my first requirement... that they have the star power to headline a big movie. I don't think any of those could. Hell, Scarlett only has star power because she's been in quite a few movies before Avengers and, of course, then got that series (after a role in the first Iron Man). I mean, go look at her filmography (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0424060/?r...) - start with Lost in Translation if you like (though she worked prior to that)... look at ALL of the stuff she did prior to Iron Man.

To me, this points up something we rarely discuss when talking whitewashing - that very few actors move from a minor role on TV or something to headlining movies. They typically have a variety of roles in other work before getting that break whether those roles are headlining smaller films, smaller roles in big films, etc. So I think what we need is more diversity in the people who populate a large variety of films. That would give exposure to a more diverse set of actors and some of those would break out.

The actresses interviewed in the article that Trike linked earlier all talk about how this role could have made someone'd career but that just very rarely happens (that an unknown gets a star vehicle like this).

There are some others who have the acting chops, such as Brenda Song, who was really great as Eduardo's batshit crazy girlfriend in The Social Network, but they don't actually look Japanese. I know a lot of white people can't tell the difference between Koreans, Chinese, Vietnamese, etc., but there are differences, just as there are differences between Italians, Greeks and Egyptians or Swedes, Germans and Poles. Those differences might be slight to outsiders, but they do exist.

And frankly, I think there would be some people who would go ballistic about that... but come on. Are we really going down the road of "If it's a Japanese sourced story ONLY Japanese actors are acceptable?" Great, then be consistent and insist on Italians in Mafia dramas, Eastern Europeans in stories about that area, etc. I do understand that this is different but there's an element of overzealousness in the discussion too.

[Trike]

Stephen wrote: "Yes, then get funding for that film. First thing first, the idea, then the funding. You want a big budget movie. None of those actresses will attach the investors, period."

You don't know that.

Especially now, after multiple box office failures that feature established Caucasian stars in whitewashed roles. Sell it as a brave new experiment starring excellent actors who have bodies of work but are still unknown enough to become breakout stars. A Star Wars for the modern era, as it were.

Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon was a huge hit and we have had numerous breakout Asian stars over the decades, so it's not like audiences are actively turning away. It's that Asian actors aren't being given a chance in Hollywood tentpoles.

[Stephen]

I do. I know funding, it goes like this. hot Director it is easier, hot product it is easier. Proven box office actor it is easier. Put them all together funding is easier. Take away one it is harder, take away two, harder still, take away all three no funding. You mention the one film that was made in Asia with Big Asian stars with proven box office.

[Trike]

Rick wrote: "To me, this points up something we rarely discuss when talking whitewashing - that very few actors move from a minor role on TV or something to headlining movies. They typically have a variety of roles in other work before getting that break whether those roles are headlining smaller films, smaller roles in big films, etc. So I think what we need is more diversity in the people who populate a large variety of films. That would give exposure to a more diverse set of actors and some of those would break out."

Yet those actors all exist. Constance Wu and Brenda Song have careers that feature solid work, and it only takes a single decent role to catapult an actor into the big leagues. Kimiko Glenn had almost no credits when she landed on OitNB, but she immediately distinguished herself among a cast of veteran and powerhouse actresses. For me, the two standout actresses on that show are her and Uzo Aduba, neither of whom had any real acting jobs before that show. When Uzo is onscreen it's hard to focus on anyone else in the scene because she commands your attention.

No one had any idea who Mark Hammil or Harrison Ford were before Star Wars, and Ford became one of the biggest box office draws in history after that. People forget that a lot of his early films from that era, including Blade Runner, were flops. But they kept giving him another chance because he was in one hit film.

We need to let Asian actors have those shots, too. This Catch-22 nonsense of not casting them because they aren't stars is silly. That used to be the argument studios used against casting black actors, and every time someone like Sidney Poitier proved to be a box office draw they wrote it off as an aberration. Now we have numerous black movie stars who are the equal to any white actor and it seems silly to think we wouldn't give someone a chance because they were black.

Studios can either learn the lesson of whitewashing or they can continue to do it. Since the second way is losing them both money and respect, they really need to try a new thing.

[Trike]

Rick wrote: "And frankly, I think there would be some people who would go ballistic about that... but come on. Are we really going down the road of "If it's a Japanese sourced story ONLY Japanese actors are acceptable?" Great, then be consistent and insist on Italians in Mafia dramas, Eastern Europeans in stories about that area, etc. I do understand that this is different but there's an element of overzealousness in the discussion too. "

We have had exactly those flare ups because of miscasting. Remember how upset people were when so many Chinese actresses were cast in Memoirs of a Geisha? They used the exact same excuse about "star power" and "acting ability", which for an American film is silly. Michelle Yeoh was the only one known to Western audiences at the time and she looks less Japanese than Natalie Wood looked Hispanic in West Side Story.

As I said earlier, there are some actors like Maori Cliff Curtis who can play multiple ethnicities. Vin Diesel's short film, "Multifacial", got him noticed for his non-specific ethnicity and two of his most famous roles have him as Italian (Saving Private Ryan) and Latino (Fast & Furious), of which he is neither.

But they do have to sort of look like the ethnicities they're playing, otherwise you get John Wayne playing Gengis Khan or Mickey Rooney as whatever the hell he was in Breakfast at Tiffany's. As amazing as Cliff Curtis is, he couldn't pull off playing a Norwegian or Chinese character.

[Gary]

John (Nevets) wrote: "Despite what I said before the one thing I'm curious if they took from both of the animated movies is the gorgeous cinematography, and pacing that allowed it to shine. I'm not talking about mimicking shot for shot remakes of the action scenes that made the trailer, but the cutaway scenic shots that totally made both movies breathtaking."

I'd suggest that the pacing is off in the live action adaptation, and that's for... reasons. Mostly it has to do with all the stuff the LAA makers added: corporations are evil! Evil we tells ya'! They're creepy! Doctor/techs are really mommy figures. Mommies are really aunties. Etc. It contrasts badly with the anime. The folks who made the LAA clearly saw the anime, because certain scenes are shot-for-shot taken from it, but I think they mostly watched it with the sound off.

[Rick]

Trike wrote: "This Catch-22 nonsense of not casting them because they aren't stars is silly. ..."
I'm NOT saying we shouldn't cast them because they're not stars. I'm SAYING it's a harder road to cast them as the primary stars in a large budget film. Scarlett was easy to cast since she has a very recognizable name now...

Did this happen with Star Wars? Yes. But consider that you're reaching back to 1977 for an example and you're also ignoring that Star Wars was NOT a huge, studio-backed blockbuster as it was being cast and shot.

FWIW, I don't have any issue with the idea that they could have (and perhaps SHOULD have) cast Ghost with an Asian actress. But I'm not the one trying to get financing for a $110m movie (Ghost's production budget)

[John (Nevets)]

Thanks for the insight Gary. I found Hulu had the original in HD last night and watched that. Still as excellent today, as it was 20 years ago. They also had something called 2.0, but the 30 seconds of it I watched did not look good. I think I will dig up my DVD of GitS2: Innocence tonight or tomorrow and watch that as well. I remember really liking the visuals in that as well. IIRC they did the Bond paper lantern scene before Bond, and it looked stunning.

[Gary]

John (Nevets) wrote: "Thanks for the insight Gary. I found Hulu had the original in HD last night and watched that. Still as excellent today, as it was 20 years ago. They also had something called 2.0, but the 30 second..."

You're welcome. I'm trying to put together a little viewing of the anime with some friends tonight. We'll see. I don't think we'll get as far as 2.0. Depends on how long the beer/pizza lasts....

[Trike]

Rick wrote: "Trike wrote: "This Catch-22 nonsense of not casting them because they aren't stars is silly. ..."
I'm NOT saying we shouldn't cast them because they're not stars. I'm SAYING it's a harder road to to cast them as the primary stars in a large budget film. Scarlett was easy to cast since she has a very recognizable name now...

Did this happen with Star Wars? Yes. But consider that you're reaching back to 1977 for an example and you're also ignoring that Star Wars was NOT a huge, studio-backed blockbuster as it was being cast and shot."

0.o

The average budget in 1977 was $4 million. Star Wars' budget was $10 million, financed entirely by 20th Century Fox.

Star Wars was EXACTLY like a $200 million film today, whereas Ghost in the Shell is more like Annie Hall.

The REASON Fox took that gamble was because the movie industry was coming off of major disruption, seeing diminishing ticket sales, and the studio system had completely evaporated. The only real hits they were having came from the under-30 directors. Easy Rider, Jaws, Godfather, etc. Lucas had a big hit with American Graffiti and that combined with the state of the industry led to the greenlight of Star Wars. Even then Fox became nervous about whatbthey were seeing so Lucas offered to give back his directing fee, provided Fox let him have all ancillary and sequel rights. Since no one knew anything because the rules were being rewritten on the fly, they agreed.

Star Wars wasn't some indie flick filmed on the sly. It was a major studio production filmed at a time when things were in flux.

I contend they are in flux again but for different reasons, and chief among those is the youth being all woke and less tolerant of whitewashing, and the youth are still the target audience for most films.

[John (Nevets)]

Trike, I think we agree way more then we disagree on this issue, but to say things are in flux in the movie industry now because of this issue ignores that it is all about money to most of these studios, and that is what is most in flux right now. When Netflix, Amazon, and Apple start going direct to the artists and small production companies and creating new IP instead of rehashing known IP like the major studios are doing, that is what is changing the game. I know you keep a closer eye on the industry then I do, but this just doesn't seem to be that subtle.

It will be sad to see the local theaters go the way of the local bookstores, but the studios are going to let that happen well before they shut up shop, or even loose to much more profit.

[Sean]

Rick wrote: "Sean - honest question... which Asian American actress do you think could have carried the lead in a big budget film like this?"

Here's the thing -- over the past few years, the drawing power of movie stars as faded significantly. Many of the biggest hits have starred relative nobodies, while some of the biggest flops (including GiTS) have had major stars attached. So just hold an open casting call for Asian actresses and pick the best one.

Darren wrote: "How convenient of you to decide what's relevant. Or were you implying that non-ethnically Japanese don't appear human? She's a cyborg. She can look like whatever the makers wanted her to. "

That's a fanwank to justify the casting after the fact. Until Johansson was announced, nobody ever thought Major Makoto Kusanagi might possibly be a white chick. This is the same argument people trotted out when Benedict Cumberbatch played Khan -- oh, well he's genetically engineered, so he could totally end up looking like some pasty-ass Englishman." It's not an explanation. It's an excuse.

[Gary]

Sean wrote: "This is the same argument people trotted out when Benedict Cumberbatch played Khan..."

Cumberbatch isn't an Asian name? Damn.... He looks so authentic in native garb, though:



Honestly, my big takeaway from watching this movie is that the white washing issue is somewhere between 12th and 15th on the list of Bad Ideas We'll Stick In Our Movie these guys came up with.

Nobody's ever come up to me with a check for over $100M, so I can't say how that must work on the psychology of a film maker, but in an awful lot of cases it does seem to make them think they must be substantially better storytellers than the next person—even if that next person is someone who already created a product successful enough that they want to emulate it in a slightly different form. After all, if they weren't geniuses, would somebody give them that kind of money? The fact that they're doing a remake of something that was already a huge success doesn't seem to influence their thinking a whit. There's no reason why someone doing an adaptation of another product need necessarily stick to that original, but when that original is already a success, going off in another direction is... well, let's call it an odd, egotistical choice.

This adaptation is a particularly strange version of that process. They clearly studied the anime. So many shots are taken almost frame for frame from the 1995 film that they had to have gone over it in agonizing detail. They don't appear to have understood the majority of it, though. Either that or they assume their audience isn't going to understand it (despite it having been around for a generation...) so the options are: they're dumb and/or they think their audience is.

[Rick]

Sigh. Are we done yet? Can we beat this to death a LITTLE more? Perhaps when the blu-ray comes out?

No new points are being made here and while I agree with the overall point that Asian and non-white actors can and should get more roles it feels like we're going to do the every fricking time someone doesn't like a casting choice. Hell, people tried to do this on Iron Fist until it was pointed out that the main character in the source material is, in fact, white.

At this point people are just arguing to argue. Say something new or let's just table this one. Perhaps we could even talk about whether the movie is any good... #gasp

[Rick]

Sean wrote: "Rick wrote: "Sean - honest question... which Asian American actress do you think could have carried the lead in a big budget film like this?"

Here's the thing -- over the past few years, the drawi..."
Convince the people with the money. That's the point - until THEY see that as a reasonable thing to do, they're not going to do it. It's a business, not a charity.

Want another missed opportunity? The new Fast & Furious movie brings in a new character to the ensemble. This could easily have been an Asian person since the film has black actors and Hispanic ones. But the brought it... Charlize Theron. Here, there's no argument for the star power. No new fans are going to say "well, I wasn't going to watch Fast & Furious movie but with Charlize there, I'm going!" Perfect way to introduce an Asian actor to more people... and that's the kind of thing that needs to happen. Arguing for a total unknown to headline a movie is, in general, going to be seen as a risk.

[Trike]

Rick wrote: "Sigh. Are we done yet? Can we beat this to death a LITTLE more? Perhaps when the blu-ray comes out? "

Do we need to call the police so they can arrest the guy holding the gun to your head forcing you to read this thread?

[[deleted user]]

Trike, this thread is a general thread about the movie. It's not specifically about whitewashing. I think it's fair to try and redirect.

I agree with the general sentiment that Asian-American actors should get more and better roles.

I don't think all this outrage over whitewashing is the way to make change. I'll go see the movie.

[Trike]

Matthew wrote: "Trike, this thread is a general thread about the movie. It's not specifically about whitewashing. I think it's fair to try and redirect.

I agree with the general sentiment that Asian-American acto..."

The single biggest issue with this movie is the whitewashing, which goes hand-in-hand with white guys adapting a Japanese property that they either didn't understand or decided it was unimportant to keep the specific themes intact.

So that's what we're talking about. And if we're still talking about it then we're not yet tired of talking about it.

[Stephen]

people have been remaking Japanese movies and books for years, but only now it is whitewashing because a woman is in the lead role? Was there the same outrage with the Keanu Reeves 47 Ronin?

[Darren]

Sean wrote: "That's a fanwank to justify the casting after the fact. Until Johansson was announced, nobody ever thought Major Makoto Kusanagi might possibly be a white chick. ."

Really? In a Hollywood production? Literally nobody ever thought that, eh? Is this alternate-facts?

When Marvel refused to make a Black Widow movie, the righteous might of the internet was all in SJ's corner about how sexist and unfair it all was. Now because some other box has been ticked, everyone's throwing her under the bus in rage, but she's not portraying a human. She's portraying a machine. It's not the same. The fact that you keep using human roles as examples to justify your point only shows how febrile your reasoning is.

[Gary]

Stephen wrote: "people have been remaking Japanese movies and books for years, but only now it is whitewashing because a woman is in the lead role? Was there the same outrage with the Keanu Reeves 47 Ronin?"

If you google "47 ronin" reeves whitewashing you'll find plenty of articles on the subject. That's a somewhat awkward one, however, given Reeves' mixed heritage. From what I can tell, he's actually less Asian than I am (I have the DNA tests to prove it) but that still muddies the waters somewhat. If you're specifically talking about Japanese characters/culture, you'll find a lot if you look for "the last samurai" whitewashing. There are plenty of other examples....

Honestly, I just don't think this is as obscure an issue as you're suggesting. If you're really arguing that this is somehow a special case because of Johansson's gender, then I'd suggest checking out the comments directed at The Last Airbender (2010), Nora in Warm Bodies (2013), Brandi Boski in Stuck (2007), or my personal favorite (because damn that gal's gorgeous...) Jennifer Connelly/Alicia Lardé Nash in A Beautiful Mind (2001) as a starting place. But really these days the commentary is rich and extensive. I've read articles about Elizabeth Taylor in Cleopatra, Natalie Wood in Westside Story, Hepburn in Dragon Seed among others....

[Tassie Dave, S&L Historian]

Gary wrote: "I've read articles about Elizabeth Taylor in Cleopatra, Natalie Wood in Westside Story, Hepburn in Dragon Seed among others.... ."

Mickey Rooney in Breakfast at Tiffany's is the most egregious example

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAafI...

[Gary]

Tassie Dave wrote: "Mickey Rooney in Breakfast at Tiffany's is the most egregious example"

When I see that Rooney image, I always flash to the scene in the otherwise pretty forgettable Bruce Lee biopic, Dragon: The Bruce Lee Story where he's watching that movie:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbiym...

Granted, he's doing a clown act, but it's hard to watch that without cringing these days. You know what? Scratch that. It's not a "these days" issue. This is a long-standing concept. Back in the 80s I was hanging out with a bunch of guys watching cartoons & drinking beer (like good teen/college malcontents) when "Bugs Bunny Nips the Nips" came on some Laserdisc or something that we were watching.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x20z...

I guess the networks took that out of the Saturday morning rotation well before I was a kid, so I didn't see it until I was an adult (more or less... opinions vary.) This is maybe thirty years ago that we saw it. We were shocked by that content of that one. Perhaps being shocked was more than a little naive given that it's decades on and folks are still struggling with these ideas.

[Tassie Dave, S&L Historian]

The Bugs Bunny cartoon is forgiveable as it was made during WW2.
It doesn't stand up to today's standards and shouldn't be shown in a children's time slot.

It is cringe inducing to watch it now.

[Stephen]

I did not see the Hollywood reporter listed in the 47 Ronin, just a lot of "never heard of that" type of websites. I still think it is because a woman is in the lead. I will wait for the next reinvented Magna film with a male lead to see if the outrage is the same.