Classics and the Western Canon discussion
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Planning for our third 2017 read
My votes are easy. Being a classicist, I'm going for Aristotle or Cicero. Double points for Cicero as I'm trying to read his speeches in Latin at the moment.And those speeches are excellent.
There's a well known joke about how much he could cram into a sentence...
A senator arrives 15 minutes late and enters to see each seat filled, with the exception of his own, and Cicero standing in the middle of the room giving a speech.
He manages to stealthily make his way to his seat without causing too much of a commotion and leans over to the senator next to him, asking in a hushed tone, "hey, what's Cicero talking about?"
The other senator simply shrugs and whispers back, "I don't know, he hasn't gotten to the verb yet"
Emma wrote: "My votes are easy. Being a classicist; I'm going for Aristotle or Cicero. Double points for Cicero as I'm trying to read his speeches in Latin at the moment."Cicero was greatly respected and honored in Renaissance Europe, when knowledge of Latin was assumed for the educated, but has fallen out of favor. It might be interesting to find out what the great interest in him was about.
From Wikipedia, based on highly credible citations:
Petrarch's rediscovery of Cicero's letters is often credited for initiating the 14th-century Renaissance in public affairs, humanism, and classical Roman culture.[8] According to Polish historian Tadeusz Zieliński, "the Renaissance was above all things a revival of Cicero, and only after him and through him of the rest of Classical antiquity."[9] The peak of Cicero's authority and prestige came during the 18th-century Enlightenment,[10] and his impact on leading Enlightenment thinkers and political theorists such as John Locke, David Hume, Montesquieu and Edmund Burke was substantial.[11] His works rank among the most influential in European culture, and today still constitute one of the most important bodies of primary material for the writing and revision of Roman history, especially the last days of the Roman Republic.[12]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cicero
I would probably never choose to read the following choices on my own:Eliot, The Mill on the Floss
Mann, Buddenbrooks
Rousseau, Emile, or On Education
I "should" entertain serious thoughts of voting for one of them for reasons of personal growth, making me a more well rounded individual, and allowing me to supply more correct questions as I play along with Jeopardy every evening with the family. However, Hawthorne's Blithedale Romance forces me to consider that perhaps insincerity and noble experiments are not the best combination.
On the other hand, voting for one of the others, which I count as some of my favorites, would supply a good excuse to acquire a better copy for myself. Any of them would be more pleasing to read, but my top choices are:
1. Cicero, On Obligations
2. Epictetus, The Discourses
3. Aristotle, Politics
David wrote: "I would probably never choose to read the following choices on my own:Eliot, The Mill on the Floss
Mann, Buddenbrooks
Rousseau, Emile, or On Education
I "should" entertain serious thoughts of vo..."
David, I salute you for your choices. All hail the works of classical antiquity.
I have read the books by Mann, Eliot and Rousseau. I would reread Mill on the Floss again, but any of the other books are good- but I would prefer to read a book that is readily available in print form.
Rosemarie wrote: "...I would prefer to read a book that is readily available in print form. Are there any among these that are not?
I just realized: Hume wrote A TREATISE OF HUMAN NATURE, which 'fell dead-born from the press,' and which he recast as AN ENQUIRY CONCERNING HUMAN UNDERSTANDING and AN ENQUIRY CONCERNING THE PRINCIPLES OF MORALS..but there is no "Enquiry concerning human nature,"
(sorry for not introducing myself on the introductions thread... I will do that very soon.)
Who made that all-time highbrow list? Joseph Brodsky? One line from that: "Hume: everything"
http://www.openculture.com/2013/11/jo...
Lily wrote: "Rosemarie wrote: "...I would prefer to read a book that is readily available in print form. Are there any among these that are not?"
They are all available.
I checked the Toronto Public Library's website, since I prefer library books or books I already own. The Cicero book is available at the Reference Library only, but the Aristotle is available to check out. This is usually a good indicator of the possible cost of books if I were to purchase a copy.
Christopher wrote: "I just realized: Hume wrote A TREATISE OF HUMAN NATURE, which 'fell dead-born from the press,' and which he recast as AN ENQUIRY CONCERNING HUMAN UNDERSTANDING and AN ENQUIRY CONCERNING THE PRINCIP..."See the Wikipedia entry for David Hume for one discussion of the choices among reading his works (last two paragraphs of opening section). If it is valid, A Treatise of Human Nature would appear to me to be the preferable choice here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Hume
Do you have other sources comparing his works to suggest, Chris? I must admit to being struck by the seeming impact of his work on modern thought. I am unfamiliar and curious. Also aware that Jonathan Haidt has been citing Hume in his research on moral psychology.
Christopher wrote: "I just realized: Hume wrote A TREATISE OF HUMAN NATURE, which 'fell dead-born from the press,' and which he recast as AN ENQUIRY CONCERNING HUMAN UNDERSTANDING and AN ENQUIRY CONCERNING THE PRINCIP..."Actually, the Treatise is available in print under that title (search Goodreads or Amazon) but you're right that the recast form is more appropriate for our consideration, so I have adjusted it. It was put on the bookshelf back in the days when we were building the bookshelf and any member could add books without restriction, which turned out to be a problem, but the we didn't catch that before the Random Number Generator picked on it.
Rosemarie wrote: "I checked the Toronto Public Library's website, since I prefer library books or books I already own. The Cicero book is available at the Reference Library only, but the Aristotle is available to ch..."The Cicero is, or appears to be, available, in an Oxford World Classics Reissue edition from Amazon for $9.05 new ($6.44 used) and from Barnes and Noble for $9.23. ABE books has used copies of the original issue for under $10.
Christopher wrote: "Who made that all-time highbrow list? Joseph Brodsky? One line from that: "Hume: everything"http://www.openculture.com/2013/11/jo..."
That's a list I hadn't seen before. Interesting. When I get a chance, I'll compare it to our bookshelf to see whether there are works on it that we should add to the shelf.
We read the two Inquiries (or Enquiries- somehow I like the spelling that the spell-checker hates) in college, and I think I am taking Hume at his word, (from the same article you cite):Hume described his "love for literary fame" as his "ruling passion" and judged his two late works, the so-called "first" and "second" enquiries, An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding and An Enquiry Concerning the Principles of Morals, respectively, as his greatest literary and philosophical achievements, asking his contemporaries to judge him on the merits of the later texts alone, rather than the more radical formulations of his early, youthful work, dismissing his philosophical debut as juvenilia:
(after that ":" comes the "however."
I would love to read Aristotle with this group. Any of the philosophical offerings would suit me, but I keep thinking I need a better understanding of Plato and Aristotle before moving on to other philosophers, so I will probably vote for him.
Christopher wrote: "We read the two Inquiries (or Enquiries- somehow I like the spelling that the spell-checker hates) in college, and I think I am taking Hume at his word..."For all his genius, it is not clear to me that the world, despite the slow start, agrees with Hume's self assessment. But Enquiries may well be the more readable for a start. (I find a 96 page version of An Enquiry, but I presume the following would be more applicable. I haven't checked our bookshelf listing yet.)
Genni wrote: "I would love to read Aristotle with this group. Any of the philosophical offerings would suit me, but I keep thinking I need a better understanding of Plato and Aristotle before moving on to other ..."Good luck. You may need to do some serious lobbying. Aristotle keeps coming up, and keeps getting overlooked. But good luck!
Patrice wrote: "...Emotion over reason, as it always is and should be. ..."LOL! Are those words to ensure Hume doesn't get discussed here?
Everyman wrote: "Genni wrote: "I would love to read Aristotle with this group. Any of the philosophical offerings would suit me, but I keep thinking I need a better understanding of Plato and Aristotle before movin..."Ha, thanks.
Patrice wrote: "cicero!"I recently read On Old Age and On Friendship. I confess I didn't spend a good deal of time on it, however I felt like I was reading regurgitated Plato. But footnotes, right? :-)
-Rousseau interests me most.-Hume is part of the leaning tower of unread literature by the bedside.
-Aristotle probably wouldn't come my way without an opportunity such as this.
Rosemarie wrote: "I checked the Toronto Public Library's website, since I prefer library books or books I already own. The Cicero book is available at the Reference Library only, ..."Cicero's On Obligations (Latin and English) is available for free at Perseus Project, a good resource for students of the classics, http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/t...
Since it was I who added it to our bookshelf, I feel somewhat obligated to justify the book choice, although it is not my top choice for Cicero. (Here is my summary of the book.)
I think an equivalent of Cicero today would be a President of the United States, who also holds professorship in law, history and philosophy. I wouldn't miss his lectures for the world. Much of our ideas of freedom, justice and human decency have been derived from the ideals of the ancient Rome articulated by Cicero.
Nemo. Thank you for that link re the free Cicero.
Rosemarie wrote: "Nemo. Thank you for that link re the free Cicero."You're welcome. The text can be converted to free eBooks, if you use Kindle or other eReaders, but I can't help with the print form. :)
Unless you read Locke's Second Treatise of Government, you cannot understand America, or so I was once told. I'd rather read that treatise with this group than his essay on human understanding, but then again, Locke's epistemology influenced Hume, and in turn Kant. It would be interesting to read them side by side
I would get a kick out of reading Emile, being an educator. It was very influential, it's said. I've also heard tell that any child actually raised by its precepts would be an ignorant undisciplined monster. I'd like to judge for myself.
Roger wrote: "I've also heard tell that any child actually raised by its precepts would be an ignorant undisciplined monster..."That statement can be tested by experiment, if anyone dares. :)
I would assume from the discussion (and simple chronology) that Aristotle or Cicero would be the better choice for someone completely unschooled in philosophy. Is either of the proposed works the best place to start? If not, does any of the learned company present have a recommendation for a good introductory text for a newbie to philosophy?
Cindy wrote: "I would assume from the discussion (and simple chronology) that Aristotle or Cicero would be the better choice for someone completely unschooled in philosophy. Is either of the proposed works the b..."These are my suggestions, but others will no doubt suggest other works. The most important thing to bear in mind when reading philosophy is to ask questions of what you are reading - Not all philosophers agree, and there is much to be learnt from books with which you disagree. Where possible I have tried to recommend translations that I have found useful.
Plato: The Last Days of Socrates. These are the first four dialogues in the traditional ordering of Plato. While the division of Plato's works into groups of four is much later than Plato, and no longer followed by scholars today, these form a natural group dealing with the trial and death of Socrates, and are an ideal introduction to Plato's work.
Plato: Protagoras/Meno. These two dialogues are a good place to follow on from the above, and ask questions about knowledge and what it is to be good.
Plato: Republic. Probably Plato's most famous work, as well as his longest.
Aristotle: Nicomachean Ethics. Aristotle was Plato's student, and the Ethics are a great introduction to his philosophy.
More: Utopia A classic sixteenth century answer to Plato's republic.
Descartes: Meditations on First Philosophy: With Selections from the Objections and Replies. The founding text of Rationalism, the idea that reason is the chief source of knowledge. In many ways the founding text of modern philosophy as well.
The Correspondence Between Princess Elisabeth of Bohemia & René Descartes. There are no women in this list, for the simple reason that for much of the history of philosophy, women published very little. Princess Elisabeth was the most important female philosopher of the seventeenth century, yet all we know about her philosophy comes from her letters to Descartes. I have not read this collection, so can't comment on the translation, but it looks to be a useful edition, also including her letters to William Penn and Robert Barclay.
Hume: Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion & Other Writings. Hume may or may not have been an atheist, but modern day atheism would be very different without this short book, published after his death.
Sartre: Existentialism Is a Humanism. This short work by the founding father of existentialism sums up his philosophy in easy to understand terms.
Kripke: Naming and Necessity. Contemporary philosophy of language has a reputation for being dense and impenetrable, but I have included this not because it is easy to understand (it isn't), but because it is easy to read, unlike much written in the field.
If you are looking for a history of philosophy, the classic in the field is Bertrand Russell's A History of Western Philosophy. This is a wide-ranging survey from the pre-socratics to Russell's contemporaries. I have not read the whole work, but what I have read is well written.
David wrote: "Cindy wrote: "I would assume from the discussion (and simple chronology) that Aristotle or Cicero would be the better choice for someone completely unschooled in philosophy. Is either of the propos..."Thank you so much, David. This looks like an excellent list!
The poll has been posted. Time to vote, though discussion and lobbying here may of course continue until the poll ends next Saturday night.
Cindy. In my perspective, the words textbook and philosophy should be regarded as antithetical. Consider this recent book whose title resonates with essence: Examined Lives: from Socrates to Nietzsche / James Miller (2011). If you want a survey, try The Passion of the Western Mind / Richard Tarnas (1993).
At the moment, I have voted for Descartes, because I have yet to read the Discourse. Although I suggested the Meditations above to Cindy, I think the Discourse would be an interesting follow-up to that. Interestingly, the Discourse, unlike the Meditations, was written in French, which suggests Descartes was writing for a lay audience, who would not have been trained in academic philosophy.
David wrote: "At the moment, I have voted for Descartes, because I have yet to read the Discourse. Although I suggested the Meditations above to Cindy, I think the Discourse would be an interesting follow-up to ..."The Discourse was published 4 years before Meditations, and would serve as a nice introduction to Descartes and his philosophical magnum opus.
My vote doesn't count for much, since I don't read with you frequently. That said, I have been wanting to read Hume and will join you if he floats to the top!
I'm hoping for Hume, too. Here's an article that talks about who he was and his important works. http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2016/...
Hollyinnnv wrote: "I'm hoping for Hume, too. Here's an article that talks about who he was and his important works. "David Hume, who died in his native Edinburgh in 1776, has become something of a hero to academic philosophers. In 2009, he won first place in a large international poll of professors and graduate students who were asked to name the dead thinker with whom they most identified. The runners-up in this peculiar race were Aristotle and Kant. Hume beat them by a comfortable margin. Socrates only just made the top twenty.
Now that's a lead paragraph that will grab your attention!
Looks like Cicero and Hume are neck and neck. I would be happy to read either, having already studied Hume, and having never read the Cicero. That being said, I'm still hoping for a late charge for poor Aristotle.
Wow, I must admit that I'm surprised a work titled "On Obligations" got as many as 7 votes. Cicero and Hume going neck and neck put me in a dilemma that I've never been before, viz. having to compete against myself. On the one hand, I'm really curious to read Hume and find out why atheists quote him so much, on the other hand, Cicero is always a good read (if I haven't read this particular work already, I would pick him over Hume any day).
Genni wrote: "I would love to read Aristotle with this group. Any of the philosophical offerings would suit me, but I keep thinking I need a better understanding of Plato and Aristotle before moving on to other ..."Looks like Aristotle is a bridesmaid once more. I'm not sure why this group has such and antipathy toward Aristotle, but he keeps coming up and we keep choosing others over him.
Some day I would love to read the Ethics with this group. But...
Everyman wrote: "Some day I would love to read the Ethics with this group. But... "If Nicomachean Ethics had been the choice instead of Politics I would have voted for it.
David wrote: "Everyman wrote: "Some day I would love to read the Ethics with this group. But... "If Nicomachean Ethics had been the choice instead of Politics I would have voted for it."
Maybe you'll get your chance sooner than you think! The moderators each get to add one nomination to the computer-generated selections.
Everyman wrote: "Genni wrote: "I would love to read Aristotle with this group. Any of the philosophical offerings would suit me, but I keep thinking I need a better understanding of Plato and Aristotle before movin..."I'm encouraged that he at least got a couple of votes this time. And if you include one or two votes-that-would-have-been (ones like mine), he didn't do as badly in this poll as he has done in others.
Nemo wrote: "On the one hand, I'm really curious to read Hume and find out why atheists quote him so much. . ."I'd be happy to assist you with that. :)
http://www.earlymoderntexts.com/autho...
If you want to jump right in, I suggest starting with Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion
There are still technically a few hours for votes to come in, but they won't change the outcome of two options running neck and neck and needing a run-off vote.As of 9:00 Pacific Time, with three hours left before the poll officially ends, we have:
Hume, raw votes 8, weighted vote 18
Cicero, raw votes 7, weighted vote 15.
So it's a run-off, and because time is getting a bit short to get a final decision and give folks time to get their books in hand, I'll post the run-off poll now, to run for one week through next Saturday night.
Once more into the voting booth, dear friends!
Aleph wrote: "Cindy. In my perspective, the words textbook and philosophy should be regarded as antithetical. Consider this recent book whose title resonates with essence: Examined Lives: from Socrates to Nietzs..."Thanks, Aleph. I somehow missed your post initially, but caught it on a reread. I will certainly add those titles to my list. Thanks for your help!
David wrote: "Nemo wrote: "On the one hand, I'm really curious to read Hume and find out why atheists quote him so much. . ."I'd be happy to assist you with that. :).."
Thank you for the book recommendation, David. I've added it to my bookshelf. Gutenberg has most of Hume's books in ebook format.
I've been thinking whether it is worth reading his Treatise of Human Nature, which is about three times as long as the recast version.
Classics and the Western Canon
Books mentioned in this topic
An Enquiry concerning the Principles of Morals (other topics)An Enquiry concerning Human Understanding (other topics)
On Obligations (other topics)
On Obligations (other topics)
On Obligations (other topics)
More...
The Random Number Generator, in its wisdom (it's of course not actually making the decisions on this basis, but somehow it does seem that the RNG has our best interests in mind!) decided that after a fairly light offering in Blithedale, we might be ready for some more challenging works, so has offered up a heady selection of philosophy. I hope that these offerings don't compete with each other so much as to let a lighter work slip through, but that the group will be ready to take on a more serious intellectual challenge. But of course, it's up to you, our esteemed members, to decide.
Here, for discussion and lobbying before the poll goes up, is our next set of offerings, as always in alphabetical order by author.
Aristotle, Politics
Cicero, On Obligations
Descartes, Discourse on Method
Eliot, The Mill on the Floss
Epictetus, The Discourses
Hume, An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding
Locke, An Essay concerning Human Understanding
Mann, Buddenbrooks
Rousseau, Emile, or On Education