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Sylvester or The Wicked Uncle
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Sylvester Group Read April 2017 Chapters 1-14
One nice thing about using an e-book, was that it was easy for me to look up "Lunnon". I thought it was slang for "wonderful" from the context. (It meant "London").
I agree with Abigail and elza. Sylvester is darcy reincarnated! The opening chapter may as well have been at pemberley!
Louise wrote: phoebe's treatment as a child seems severe, but she herself says that her stepmother was never unjust, and punishments such as she received were commonplace in her day. I think most abused children would have said that at 18. Certainly most abused wives would have.
Our clue as the reader that it was abusive is that every character that knows them thinks she was too hard on Phoebe.
I love the scene when Mrs. Orde visits and Sylvester knows he should excuse himself as a man of virtue but decides to stay and listen because he can live with knowing he wasn't quit virtuous enough to leave.That was really funny.
Howard wrote: "Margaret wrote: "Since Howard is a member of the same mailing list I am, dedicated to the works of Lois McMaster Bujold, I'm pretty sure she is at least one of the Heyer-loving SF wr..."I just noticed that Sherwood Smith posted a message in " Sylvester Group Read April 2017 Spoilers thread". She's a successful fantasy writer who has a couple of Regency romances that I enjoyed. (But I didn't know of her influences when I started reading Heyer).
I second Howard! I just read Sherwood Smith’s Rondo Allegro and was tremendously impressed. Great research, the sweep of history, and an enormously satisfying love story. So much of what passes for romance is just attraction and misunderstandings; her protagonists went through a long and believable process of doubting each other, learning more, developing mutual respect, and becoming emotionally and physically attached. If that sounds appealing to you, do give her books a read!
Amy wrote: "Louise wrote: phoebe's treatment as a child seems severe, but she herself says that her stepmother was never unjust, and punishments such as she received were commonplace in her day. I think most..."
i don't think Phoebe was abused. strictly brought up, but that wasn't uncommon in her era. Her stepmother is a hard, cold woman, but Phoebe has been able to please herself as far as her enjoyment of horses and riding goes, has a good relationship with two of her three half sisters, and is fond of her governess. So her life has not been all misery.
Howard wrote: "Sylvester doesn't think he's rude, normally. I like him as a character, as he isn't anything but what he is, with no excuses. He's not at all evil, but just incomplete. I don't want another Alverst..."I agree that Sylvester isn't rude - he's just very, very detached. It takes a lot to move him out of his aloofness, and it's interesting that those situations which do are those which threaten to involve him in anything that involves "forcing" him to do or think anything that isn't his idea. He takes independence to a new level!
Karlyne wrote: "Howard wrote: "Sylvester doesn't think he's rude, normally. I like him as a character, as he isn't anything but what he is, with no excuses. He's not at all evil, but just incomplete. I don't want ..."So true! His pride, independence and reserve remind me of my own dear husband, and to some extent our son, so I am prejudiced in his favor. Sylvester is responsible for so many and would never let anyone down because of what he owes his position and family name - but he deeply cares for only a few people, and would do anything for those he loves.*sigh*
Susan in NC wrote: "Karlyne wrote: "Howard wrote: "Sylvester doesn't think he's rude, normally. I like him as a character, as he isn't anything but what he is, with no excuses. He's not at all evil, but just incomplet..."Well, as long as you're in the inner circle... But, seriously, I do know what you mean!
Amy, that is a fabulous scene, and for me it shows the first chink in Sylvester's armor -- the first glimpse of humanity. He knows he should leave but he really wants to hear this, and "accepted with fortitude the realization that he was lacking in delicacy."And as he told Tom later, "what she said to Lady Marlow I shall always be happy to think I was privileged to hear!" Sounds like "the day my mama socked it to the Harper Valley PTA" --doesn't it? LOL!
When Sylvester catches up with Tom & Phoebe at the Blue Boar, though, I kind of hate him -- first of all for telling Phoebe, thoughtlessly but unkindly, that her mother is with him -- scares that poor girl half to death. He doesn't notice Keighley's illness until Phoebe points it out to him, which makes him angry with himself. And that leads to him being angry with her.
This is really the first strong emotion we see from Sylvester -- I'm fascinated, on this reading, to see the way his character is developed and revealed, and not always in a flattering way. He is absolutely furious with Phoebe -- not just for turning up her nose at him, but for pointing out his own selfishness.
It's telling that none of his five finalists in the marriage pageant spur any strong reaction, but Phoebe -- now, she gets him all riled up. So much so that he determines to "teach Miss Marlow a lesson. ... Something of greater importance than his consequence had been hurt."
A little foreshadowing, methinks, in his spiteful assessment of her as "a little too cock-sure ... but let us see if you can be made to feel sorry!"
Karlyne wrote: "Susan in NC wrote: "Karlyne wrote: "Howard wrote: "Sylvester doesn't think he's rude, normally. I like him as a character, as he isn't anything but what he is, with no excuses. He's not at all evil..."LOL! ;-)
Amy wrote: "Our clue as the reader that it was abusive is that every character that knows them thinks she was too hard on Phoebe."Yes! And the reference to the whippings she received. Was that common for girls in this era?
I think Sylvester is deliberately patterned after Darcy. Heyer uses the exact same phrase as Austen about feelings undergoing a material change. I didn't write the quote down but the language is the same. I don't think it's a coincidence. Tom is a great friend to Phoebe. He's not the type of man I'd want to marry but he is a supportive friend. I wonder if he really would marry Phoebe if push came to shove?
Elza wrote: "Amy, that is a fabulous scene, and for me it shows the first chink in Sylvester's armor -- the first glimpse of humanity. He knows he should leave but he really wants to hear this, and "accepted wi..."Yes! I loved that Sylvester didn't leave the room - he had had such an awful time with the Marlows that he was ready to throw his manners out the window!
QNPoohBear wrote, “I think Sylvester is deliberately patterned after Darcy. Heyer uses the exact same phrase as Austen about feelings undergoing a material change. I didn't write the quote down but the language is the same.”Are you thinking of the one I cited @6, about him having been given good principles but left to follow them in pride and conceit?
I love the entire time he is at the Marlows. It's such an awful time for everybody that you can just feel it. The uncomfortable silences. The mediocre food. The condescending hostess. Awful. It's so relatable because we've all experienced those horrid dinner parties or weekends with in-laws or holidays with extended family where you just want to hop in your curricle in the middle of a snowstorm and get as far away as possible.
Elza wrote: "Amy wrote: "Our clue as the reader that it was abusive is that every character that knows them thinks she was too hard on Phoebe."Yes! And the reference to the whippings she received. Was that co..."
yes, corporal punishment was very common for boys and girls in this era. No doubt phoebe's half sisters were whipped as well.
QNPoohBear wrote: "I think Sylvester is deliberately patterned after Darcy. Heyer uses the exact same phrase as Austen about feelings undergoing a material change. I didn't write the quote down but the language is th..."I like Tom much better than Sylvester, I wish he had been the hero.
I like the fact that Sylvester isn't a "perfect" hero. He has flaws, like a real person. He has room to grow and he does just that throughout the story. If he hadn't been interested in Phoebe, for example, I cannot imagine that he would have become friendly with Tom. He even unbends enough to invite Sir Nugent, who he despises, to accompany Lady Ianthe to Chance to visit young Edmund.
Amy wrote: "I love the entire time he is at the Marlows. It's such an awful time for everybody that you can just feel it. The uncomfortable silences. The mediocre food. The condescending hostess. Awful. It's..."
Oh Lord yes! And not lose a wheel off of your curricle or end up in a snowdrift or creepy haunted inn...
Pamela wrote: "I like the fact that Sylvester isn't a "perfect" hero. He has flaws, like a real person. He has room to grow and he does just that throughout the story. If he hadn't been interested in Phoebe, for ..."Agreed - Tom would be a pleasure to know, but Sir Nugent, yikes!
Louise wrote: "QNPoohBear wrote: "I think Sylvester is deliberately patterned after Darcy. Heyer uses the exact same phrase as Austen about feelings undergoing a material change. I didn't write the quote down but..."He was a great gun, wasn't he? My admiration for him grew throughout the story, and I kept thinking the Squire and his mum must be really wonderful parents to turn out such a decent, kind, smart, good-natured son (besides thinking I'd love to share a glass of wine with Tom's mom after she tore a strip off the Marlows!)
I like how Tom and Sylvester bonded over the mere thought of disappointing their fathers, in Tom's case, because Trusty and True were injured; words were barely needed, the reader knows that neither father was a "Bad Man", but the two sons would sooner cut off a limb than disappoint their father! Quite a tribute.
Getting into a complicated bit here as Sylvester is making plans to get Phoebe to her grandmother. He's being very nice to her, and you would think that he is unbending a little if you didn't know that he is deliberately trying to make her like him -- so he can punish her for it later. It's hard to tell how much of his manner with her is natural, and how much is by design. I mean, when he calls her "Sparrow" -- how can that be calculated? I don't like knowing that he's plotting against her -- reminds me of (view spoiler)Phoebe, however, has no such deviousness in mind. She's just being intentionally provocative in putting down Sylvester's pretensions, because she can. And she clearly enjoys it. You go, girl.
Sylvester becomes more likable when he leaves the Marlowes and rescues young Tom. I like how he arranges to have the girl Alice stay with Phoebe without being high handed. I also like how sensible Tom is throughout the whole thing. Phoebe may end up getting hysterical and angry at Sylvester but Tom always keeps his cool-so far. Phoebe treats Sylvester like she's a Duchess and he's a lesser person. I think he is surprised but kind of likes it much like Darcy likes how Lizzie is "impertinent" with him.
(I'm on chapter 10 so far).
This is one of my very favorite Heyers! I love how the one girl Sylvester decides to "honor" with the amazing gift of his fabulous self is the one person with the unique ability to depress his pretensions as fast as he can display them.I love how surreal the whole experience at the Marlowe's was for Sylvester. And the moment Phoebe looks at him and says, "I haven't any conversation,"--that's it. That's the moment the hook went in; he just didn't know it yet. It reminds me of that moment in the Pride and Prejudice mini-series when Elizabeth walks past Darcy with the ghost of a smile on her lips after he's rejected the idea of dancing with her. That's the moment he learns that she's not like the others.
Ok, kudos to you Miss Cindy, you almost made me choke on my morning coffee, you had me at "...the one girl Sylvester decides to "honor"..." to the memory of the surreal Marlow visit right through to the reference to the P&P scene - brilliant! All of those scenes just flashed instantly through my mind and I was enjoying them all over again! Thank you for a morning chuckle before I dive into the news (ick)...
QNPoohBear wrote:"Phoebe treats Sylvester like she's a Duchess and he's a lesser person."This is so exactly it, and it is what begins to give him a glimpse of what his behavior looks like to those around him. Despite Burns' words, "to see ourselves as others see us" is not always gratifying.
Phoebe's casual critiques of his behavior are, at this point, expected. But he is genuinely taken aback when he "realised, with a slight shock, that [Tom] was trying to prevent the Squire's being wounded by a snub. ... he wondered now if it could be true that he, who prided himself on his good manners, appeared to others to be insufferably high in the instep."
The hook is in, as Cindy says -- love it! -- and now it's twisting.
Elza wrote: "QNPoohBear wrote:"Phoebe treats Sylvester like she's a Duchess and he's a lesser person."This is so exactly it, and it is what begins to give him a glimpse of what his behavior looks like to thos..."
Yes! Very affecting scene with Tom and the squire, especially when we know Sylvester held his own father in such great high esteem and loved him dearly.
Back to the theme of which actor could play sylvester - who has satannical eyebrows? Alan Rick man in his earlier years or jack Nicholson.
Actually Tom Hiddleston or benedict cumberbatch would be good in the role.
Belinda wrote: "Back to the theme of which actor could play sylvester - who has satannical eyebrows? Alan Rick man in his earlier years or jack Nicholson."Timothy Dalton could have done it forty years ago.
Timothy Dalton would have been perfect!
Ok ladies get out of my head - I was thinking him or a young Pierce Brosnan! But I don't follow younger actors and wasn't sure who was who until I saw Belinda's comment! Huddleston and Cumberbatch I do know, and yes I could see either of them as Sylvester.
I'm just at the part after the stay at the inn. I think that week was good for Sylvester. He got to see himself as others see him. I liked how he let his mischievous side show to help Phoebe. He's changed a lot already from the first chapter where he chooses to stay inside and work instead of joining his young nephew for a romp or going hunting.
I finally made it to chapter 14. Sylvester is already showing signs of life, so to speak. He's less stiff and recognizing that he doesn't care for a lady who is TOO compliant. Hmm...! ;-)
Heyer does one thing that works very, very well in letting us believe that people will fit as lovers & spouses. Not in all of her books, but certainly in this one.She has them share their senses of humor.
That has the added benefit in that we are also sharing the humor, even when it might not have been directly funny (as in spending too much money for a horse).
I love how both Phoebe and Tom have to explain how Sylvester is both (1) an ogre from whom Phoebe must be rescued, and (2) the most amiable person imaginable, not top-lofty or above being pleased , who ensures that Phoebe travels to London in comfort and respectability. It makes for some interesting conversations with their respective guardians!And oh, how I adore Lady Ingham. Just the fact that she only ever refers to Phoebe's stepmother as That Woman is all it takes to win me over.
She is sharp as a tack, too, and sees what Sylvester's game is: "whether it had been with the intention of punishing Phoebe rather than her grandmother that Sylvester had sent her up to London."
Howard wrote: "Heyer does one thing that works very, very well in letting us believe that people will fit as lovers & spouses. Not in all of her books, but certainly in this one.She has them share their senses of humor.
That has the added benefit in that we are also sharing the humor"
Oh, yes. That's crucial in a marriage. It makes me think that must have been something that Georgette Heyer shared with her husband, because it is such a joy and a comfort to know that, when something makes you laugh, your loved one will find it funny too.
We see it in A Civil Contract, with (view spoiler)
I'm reminded, too, of Anne Shirley, in Lucy Maud Montgomery's Anne of the Island, who (view spoiler)
Howard wrote: "Heyer does one thing that works very, very well in letting us believe that people will fit as lovers & spouses. Not in all of her books, but certainly in this one.She has them share their senses ..."
Yes! I think all readers relate to that - when the H and h share a sense of humor, you somehow feel it'll all work out, no matter what the social difficulties or conflicts in their way.
Susan in NC wrote: "Howard wrote: "Heyer does one thing that works very, very well in letting us believe that people will fit as lovers & spouses. Not in all of her books, but certainly in this one.She has them shar..."
Years ago, a large group of us marrieds answered the question, "What is the one thing which you appreciate in your spouse?", and when I replied, "His sense of humor" you could have heard a pin drop. Everyone else was ever so much more romantic, but the truth is I value laughing more than anything else.
Karlyne wrote: "Years ago, a large group of us marrieds answered the question, "What is the one thing which you appreciate in your spouse?", and when I replied, "His sense of humor" you could have heard a pin drop. Everyone else was ever so much more romantic, but the truth is I value laughing more than anything else. ..."I completely agree. Heyer nails that in Venetia when Venetia is telling Damerel how bereft her life has been of companionship in laughter. She has people who love her, who are kind to her, but no one who shares her sense of humor. When she laughs at something, no one else gets the joke. It's one of those things you take for granted unless you don't have it. Then you realize how vitally important it is.
Cindy wrote: "Karlyne wrote: "Years ago, a large group of us marrieds answered the question, "What is the one thing which you appreciate in your spouse?", and when I replied, "His sense of humor" you could have ..."Yes! And when Adam and Jenny start to share funny things in A Civil Contract, you realize (with relief!) that things are looking up. Humor is necessary - unless, of course, you don't have any and then it's just perplexing...
Elza wrote: "Howard wrote: "Heyer does one thing that works very, very well in letting us believe that people will fit as lovers & spouses. Not in all of her books, but certainly in this one.She has them share funny things in A Civil Contract..."
Another one is Black Sheep
Yes I really love the couples who share the same sense of humor. I don't care for the very young and silly heroines and the heroes who act like a father figure or worse- a bully. I also see here in Sylvester, his treatment of invalid Tom is very similar to the way Damarel treats Venetia's brother Aubrey after his accident.
Queen pooh -I agree except the wonderful scene at the end where Tom tells sylvester to come down from his high ropes and not pull the duke thing on him
Hi everyone!! I'm jumping in a bit late, I hope it's ok :D This is my first time reading Sylvester, and I'm on chapter 3 right now and so far I absolutely love it! I have the Sourcebooks paperback edition
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Anne wrote: "Hi everyone!! I'm jumping in a bit late, I hope it's ok :D This is my first time reading Sylvester, and I'm on chapter 3 right now and so far I absolutely love it! I have the Sourcebooks paperback ..."Still reading myself, Anne (I've had a lot of other books interrupt me. Terribly rude.), so you're not alone!
P.S. The only reason I've let them interrupt is that I have read Sylvester before and I didn't want to rush it this time!
What fun for you, Anne, reading Sylvester for the first time! I’m envious, I devoured them all so long ago that I can’t remember what that was like. I hope you’ll share your perceptions with us as you go along.
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Georgette Heyer Fans
Books mentioned in this topic
Sylvester, or The Wicked Uncle (other topics)Rondo Allegro (other topics)
A Civil Campaign (other topics)
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Lois McMaster Bujold (other topics)Lois McMaster Bujold (other topics)
Lois McMaster Bujold (other topics)
He's very like Darcy in Pride & Prejudice, isn't he? The same age, too!
And he doesn't think he's rude, because, really, he isn't. He just assumes that what he wants is what's going to happen. You can definitely see that in his meetings with both his godmother and with Marlow, and I find both interactions entertaining for that very reason. He has set up this plan and how it is supposed to play out, and then it's supposed to happen just like that. He is annoyed at his godmother because "she was not playing the game as he had planned it ... she ought to know that hers was not the first trap set for him." Marlow elicits the same reaction by making the purpose of Sylvester's visit so obvious -- although, to give him credit, Sylvester realizes that he has set himself up for that.
Despite only meeting him a few times, Phoebe has his measure: "so sure of his consequence that he never thinks of it." She & the Duchess see the same thing -- which tells us that (1) writers are smart! and (2) (view spoiler)[they both care (hide spoiler)].