The Diary of a Young Girl
discussion
Anyone else hate this Diary
i dont know what you guys are arguing about...
Are we still arguing about this? Both sides of this argument have valid points. Can't we get back to, as Anamika put it, hating the diary? By the way, my dear Anamika, there is only one person who 'hates' the diary, and that's you. Sorry to be the bringer of bad news. ;)
@Margot. lol.
I think Anamika is several different people - or trolls - sentence structure and phraseology is very definitely different in the last few comments. The rudeness and aggression from it/her/them is also quite nasty now.
Margot wrote: "Both sides of this argument have valid points."No, both sides don't have valid points. The other side has an opinion, the other has the unpleasant reality on its side. In fact I find the whole idea that "all wars are wrong" quite interesting in a thread about Anne Frank. Even though Finland was most of the time on the other side of the war and the Allies were our enemies, I understand the importance (though I don't always agree with the methods or dealings with Stalin) of the war effort of the Western Allies.
So there never should have been the Invasion of Normandy? Couldn't you have just, y'know, discuss about things with Hitler? I'm sure he would have been very reasonable and welcoming to any suggestions about the situation in Europe. After all, killing Germans was wrong.
She could be getting stronger. It could be a couple of girls, or a bot. She/it /he/ they said she did not have a room to go sulk into. And the plot thickens. Ta ta ta tam.
Margot wrote: "Are we still arguing about this? Both sides of this argument have valid points. Can't we get back to, as Anamika put it, hating the diary? By the way, my dear Anamika, there is only one person who ..."Who knows how many may have participated in a discussion based on the topic of the thread if Anamika hadn't been ganged up on from the beginning and the thread hadn't been hijacked completely off topic. This is why it is important to either discuss the topic or start your own thread. You can't claim that "no one else 'hates' the diary" if 95% of the thread is off topic and the rest of the 5% is slamming the viewpoint, because no one who visits knows what is going on, or isn't wanting to get slammed themselves. Also, it isn't justification to change the topic just because Anamika chooses to handle responses the way she does. The option if you don't like what isn't being said, is to start a thread about something that you want to discuss. You will get notification when Anamika makes another comment, so it isn't necessary to comment here while you wait. -That- is trolling. (A person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people (something like "people who like Anne Frank's Diary are stupid," not "I feel X about Anne Frank's Diary"),[1] by posting inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or ---off-topic--- messages in an online community with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[3] or of otherwise ---disrupting normal on-topic discussion---.) So, one could say (inaccurately) the original thread was an example of trolling, but it is also (more) accurate that the off-topic comments are also trolling. Again, young people use the word hate a.lot., so I wouldn't consider Anamika's use of the word to be particularly inflammaory, attention-seeking, or upsetting. She's not being anymore nasty or hostile or immature than anyone else who has commented or judged her without knowing her. If she isn't telling you what you want to know, and you perceive that as "wasting your time" take yourself elsewhere. There are books about what you are eager to discuss, and probably many people who would join to discuss it, more than the few who are here because the subject of the thread is "hating Anne Frank's diary"...so start a Winter War and Coffee Cake thread... But then you wouldn't have Anamika to knock around...bummer...
Margot wrote: "Are we still arguing about this? Both sides of this argument have valid points. Can't we get back to, as Anamika put it, hating the diary? By the way, my dear Anamika, there is only one person who ..." I was talking about the whole fracas with the WMD's. An entirely new war subject…
Anamika wrote: "I literally hate this diary.I hated it even before I read it.But I thought I was being paranoid and read it,yet no change.Anyone else having the same problem?In addition to that,I'm also trying to ..."I loved this diary.
Mae wrote: "She could be getting stronger. It could be a couple of girls, or a bot. She/it /he/ they said she did not have a room to go sulk into. And the plot thickens. Ta ta ta tam."Your comments do make me laugh :D
@Leslie, might I suggest that you form a new tread to discuss the importance of forming new treads when things deviate from topic? I am not trying to be smart-arsed, but if this bothers you so much, maybe you should lead by example. All the best
You can suggest all you want, but one comment about staying on topic isn't deviating. Pages and pages of off-topic conversation, after being asked to stay on topic, is trolling. And I was commenting on the destruction of the intent of the OP - conversation about the dislike of the book. This is relevant, because the OP expresses interest in research, which may very well be how people react when someone "hates a book they like" or "hates a book they claim not to have read" or any other such discourse contrary to popular opinion/emotion. Of course - the mob rules - so your reaction isn't unexpected.
Leslie wrote: "You can suggest all you want, but one comment about staying on topic isn't deviating. Pages and pages of off-topic conversation, after being asked to stay on topic, is trolling. And I was commentin..."But it wasn't just one comment, was it? Hence the suggestion. Of course, you're free to do whatever you like
There are other diaries by young people who were in the ghettos, hiding, etc. Some of those are more interesting than Anne's diary; but hers was the first and the most complete. There is a special reading technique used when reading a diary and if you read it like a novel, it would be very difficult.
You have to have some background of the history against which the diary was written to understand parts of it.
You have to understand that she wasn't writing for it to be published; however she did edit it in hopes that it might be later.
You must remember the age of the person writing and the schooling they may have had. Anne's schooling was different from ours and the use of language and writing was more pronounced.
I had to try reading it several times before I finally read all of it. I was an adult before that happened. I had read the play version in school and that is the version I taught for 38 years with background information and using portions of the diary to compare with the play version.
Anamika, I think what everyone objects to is the word hate. Perhaps dislike would be better.
Leslie wrote: "Joana wrote: "Leslie wrote: "You can suggest all you want, but one comment about staying on topic isn't deviating. Pages and pages of off-topic conversation, after being asked to stay on topic, is ..."oh, I meant the entire conversation we had yesterday on the same topic, then :) See my point? Or was it your twin? Are you sure I'm not deviating too much by pointing this out?
Leslie wrote: "Joana wrote: "Leslie wrote: "Joana wrote: "Leslie wrote: "You can suggest all you want, but one comment about staying on topic isn't deviating. Pages and pages of off-topic conversation, after bein..."Congratulations to you for being consistent, then. My point would be that since the mob is quite content with amicably discussing other topics till the 2nd, to keep insisting that we stop would be quite useless. In my advice to you would be, as it's said in my mother tongue, not to waste your latin.
Leslie wrote: "Joana wrote: "Leslie wrote: "Joana wrote: "Leslie wrote: "Joana wrote: "Leslie wrote: "You can suggest all you want, but one comment about staying on topic isn't deviating. Pages and pages of off-t..."Godwin's law: The theory that as an online discussion progresses, it becomes inevitable that someone or something will eventually be compared to Adolf Hitler or the Nazis, regardless of the original topic.
At least you don't deviate too much from the topic!
Leslie wrote: "I'm sure the Nazis would have agreed with you wholeheartedly."Congratulations! Reductio ad Hitlerum! You lose! (That took long enough...)
Lol joana good one. But seriously, Leslie. Are we straying that far off topic by discussing what anamikas reasons might be/ why she isn't telling us them and talking about WWII? All technically related. And actually, Leslie if you went back to the beginning you would see that for the most part everyone said they liked/loved it. Those are (again, for the most part) almost exactly the same people that are here today. K? We've told Anamika what we think, and now we're just passing the time in good companionship and conversation.
This really has degenerated into a rather unpleasant argument about what is, or what should be, discussed in this thread. Threads deviate - that is the nature of the beast. Get over it. I also feel a little touch of humour, regarding coffee cake and almonds is preferred over threats and aggression.
Leslie wrote: "That might be applicable if Nazis weren't relevant to the original topic and the -mob-, but congratulations on your "Internet Education". Way to shoot for "the least.""A discussion about the thread staying on topic has nothing to do with Nazis.
Leslie wrote: "Joana wrote: "Leslie wrote: "Joana wrote: "Leslie wrote: "Joana wrote: "Leslie wrote: "Joana wrote: "Leslie wrote: "You can suggest all you want, but one comment about staying on topic isn't deviat..."If you read it more carefully, the definition says REGARDLESS of original topic. Well, internet education it might be, if not exclusively, but at least I try not to turn to fallacies to argue my point.
Margot wrote: "Lol joana good one. But seriously, Leslie. Are we straying that far off topic by discussing what anamikas reasons might be/ why she isn't telling us them and talking about WWII? All technically rel..."She has asked that the conversation stay on topic. Yes, page upon page of off-topic conversation is inappropriate. Just because you "can" doesn't make it okay, because it set others who may have otherwise commented, off. And she wasn't asking for input from people who liked the book, was she? So from the outset, taking the conversation in a direction of liking the book -is off topic- and the tone of -mob mentality- set by dismissing Anamika's opinion, judging her as a person (she reads such and such a book, she must be such and such an age, she has such and such a motive), is going to also put off anyone who might consider disagreeing with -the mob-. Introverts in particular are susceptible to this aggressive mob-like expression. There hasn't been a whole lot of consideration towards the possibility that people who disliked the diary might have shown up if it wasn't for the hijacking of the thread, just a lot of "we'll do what we want while we wait for Anamika to do what we want." When she doesn't really owe anyone anything. She's looking for people who didn't like the diary. If you don't fit that demographic, why should she waste her time explaining herself to you, and why is that justification for hijacking the thread?
Joana wrote: "Well, internet education it might be, if not exclusively, but at least I try not to turn to fallacies to argue my point."It's much older than Internet in any case. Also known as "playing the Nazi card".
hi so i just read parts of this thread and quite honestly its really funny like you guys are giving this "Anamika" who i am assuming is about 12 so much power, you engage in her arguments!
and for everyone here PLEASE dont take this as me saying this is lame and to stop, please do not stop! this is a great source of entertainment!
thank you all sooo much for this thread!
and i think this kid "anamika" is trying to troll, but clearly its not working to well
Leslie, you have now taken the thread approximately 1.5 pages off topic. How dare you not respect anamikas request! Don't you have anything better to do than create multiple pages of off topic conversation? Oh and by the way, Anamika probably doesn't belong to a very large demographic of people, and many of them that disliked the diary probably dislike reading in general which means there is a very small chance that they have a goodreads account which means they have no way of commenting on this thread. Unfortunately, we're the best thing that Anamika gets.
Leslie wrote: "Well...if the goosestep fits, and you have the numbers, march over whoever disagrees with you."Also known as democracy? You know, the one where the majority makes decisions instead of just one dictator?
Leslie just said "minorities deserve to express and be heard....." ok so if you think this why are yelling at people? i mean it there opinion so let it be? ya
you have ben arguing for about 2 pages now maybe move on?
Leslie wrote: "Tytti wrote: "Leslie wrote: "Well...if the goosestep fits, and you have the numbers, march over whoever disagrees with you."Also known as democracy? You know, the one where the majority makes dec..."
It is one of its definitions: control of an organization or group by the majority of its members.
hello?! Leslie? umm what does this have to do with the topic of the book? Your the one that said we should not diverge from the topic, ya?
Joana wrote: "Leslie wrote: "Tytti wrote: "Leslie wrote: "Well...if the goosestep fits, and you have the numbers, march over whoever disagrees with you."Also known as democracy? You know, the one where the maj..."
http://dizerega.com/2013/05/09/unders...
Joana wrote: "Mae wrote: "She could be getting stronger. It could be a couple of girls, or a bot. She/it /he/ they said she did not have a room to go sulk into. And the plot thickens. Ta ta ta tam."Your comm..." gooooooool
Leslie wrote: "Joana wrote: "Leslie wrote: "Tytti wrote: "Leslie wrote: "Well...if the goosestep fits, and you have the numbers, march over whoever disagrees with you."Also known as democracy? You know, the one..."
I am not familiar with the credentials of Gus DiZerega, but regardless, I'd say we fall within the category of "very small and homogeneous polities", and as such there can be a majority that can rule.
You said: "you have the numbers, march over whoever disagrees with you".If there is a vote in a democracy, the one that gets more votes "marches over" the other side.
Anamika has been heard but her explanations have been found lacking. Also no one is forbidding her the right to talk.
Joana wrote: "Leslie wrote: "Joana wrote: "Leslie wrote: "Tytti wrote: "Leslie wrote: "Well...if the goosestep fits, and you have the numbers, march over whoever disagrees with you."Also known as democracy? Yo..."
Five big kids on a playground decide they don't like 2 little kids and kick them off. Democracy? Same 5 big kids see the 2 little kids playing in their own yard an decide they want to use the yard to play football, and tell the little kids to go in the house if they don't like it...Democracy? This may be a thread in a "public domain" but these individual forums are like houses on a street. Why is it so impossible/difficult to show a little respect when the person who took the time to start a post for her own reason asks the group to stay on topic or make their own thread if they want to discuss something else? I don't understand this bully mentality you want to call "democracy" just because you have numbers and the "popular" opinion towards the book.
Leslie wrote: "You can suggest all you want, but one comment about staying on topic isn't deviating. Pages and pages of off-topic conversation, after being asked to stay on topic, is trolling. And I was commentin..."Leslie, she is also writing a research on books, and she wanted suggestions. She opened up the forum, by not even answering as to what she is researching on. I have asked twice. An op, does not need to explain, but needs to be involved in the thread. As many in the thread have mentioned, threads like conversations, go off topic. It may be hard for you to believe but many of us are here because we are actually waiting for her response. She could have deleted the thread. We have mostly discussed wars, peace and the OP.
Leslie wrote: "What you are doing is discouraging the advancement of her stated topic by overriding it with your own, even when she has asked you politely to stop"She started a discussion. She could have started "a discussion question" where it is impossible to HAVE a discussion because one person can only answer ONCE. She can still delete this and ask the question. But I guess she doesn't want to.
An example of a question topic: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/... It's just or almost under this one.
as usual, I am completely and utterly lost...
The thread has NOT been hijacked - it has taken its natural course from discussion about a book written during the war to war itself - that is the nature of forums. Although I have agreed with some of your comments, Leslie, I think you're way off the mark here and you're becoming just a little bit sanctimonious and preachy :(
@Leslie If you look for the definition of Trolling, you will find out that what we are doing is not trolling. If you look for the ethics and rules of posting threads you will find things like"A well-made thread or a well-written comment engages its audience and facilitates discussion. We do ask that posters take just a little time to make their posts as readable as possible and keep their responses on topic. We also ask that you take a moment to check your spelling and grammar. Here are a couple things to avoid:
Low Content Posts
This could be anything from simply answering a question, posting LOL, "agreed," "this," +1, or even a joking quip. These forums are used for discussion and low content posts halt discussion. In order to participate in conversation one should present an explanation of the reasoning that informs your opinion. "I like pie" isn't an argument. The fact that you like pie is well and good, but why do you like that pie? This explanation offers others an opportunity to respond to your opinion and avoids forum spam." Like Tytti said, she started a discussion… we are actually interested. And you cannot expect people not to react to her original post. In fact if you read through the thread, the one time visitors, have been the hardest on her. If she is too young she should not be doing this, Which is why in two occasions I asked her to reach adults she could trust to assist her, on her post and what is going on the thread.
And at any rate you have taken us off topic.
Anamika - why all the hatred towards us, faithfull followers? Why the menaces? And why someone should be different online than in real life? Because if you are not prepared to back up whatever you say online, then you are kid, indeed. Real and mature people do not have an on-line persona, in which they can blab what they wouldn´t dare to whispers to someone, in person.Mae - i agree with you! This is the most fun that the most agreable group of people, talking and discussing POV´s in a civilized manner - and this is what the foruns should all be about, not someone trying to run you over with their concepts and ideas and not accepting that not everyone thinks the same way.
Leslie - for goodness sake, stop trollig yourself! Like my country-woman said (Joana), stop waisting your latin and our patience! And what was that Nazi thing? That was a real low blow, bellow the waist. That is the argument of people who don´t have arguments! You don´t want to take part on what you call "trolling"? Then, fine - dont´t do it!
Margot - right on with your remarks.
So, shall we take this to a more pleasant field? I am in the mood, to go with the coffe and coffe cake, some mousse de chocolat....yum sorry love to eat!
I was reflecting that most of the people here have bits of info about the wars, and that maybe we could recomend books - fiction and non-fiction - to each other, in order to have a more complete feel to it?
I will start and say that there is one fiction book that tell all about the start and enfolding of the WWII in Spain and Portugal - what happened begind the cenes: a fiction novel, centered on a ficitonal character but sided with real characters, that were trully envolved in the war effort - it is called The Seamstress or in portuguese O Tempo Entre Costuras
Mae wrote: "@Leslie If you look for the definition of Trolling, you will find out that what we are doing is not trolling. If you look for the ethics and rules of posting threads you will find things like"A ..."
I have not agreed with you throughout this thread, Mae, but i agree with you on that one. And how can Anamika expect us to stay on topic, when she gives us nothing to stay on topic of...no offense intended, Leslie, and i have agreed with what you have posted before, but I don't think anybody is going to stop this conversation when Anamika is not giving us her reasons. So until July 2nd, at least we should be free to discuss whatever we wish.
Maria wrote: "a fiction novel, centered on a ficitonal character but sided with real characters, that were trully envolved in the war effort"Thanks, I am always on the lookout for recommendations for books from people about their homeland. I do have a bit of a problem with trusting authors writing about foreign countries. Though it's WWII, and I don't really like reading fiction about it.
Belle wrote: "Mae wrote: "So until July 2nd, at least we should be free to discuss whatever we wish"If you discuss it on your own thread , yes. But it is a disruption to the topic of this thread and the intent of the "host," particularly when she has specifically asked to stay on topic (for her own reasons - but I assume it is because she is looking for people who disliked the diary, and clogging up the thread with other things "confuses" the topic and discourages posting).
And Leslie, you keep clogging the thread too, but in a most hypocritical way - clogging by warning us not to clogg...funny, hum?
Leslie wrote: "Belle wrote: "Mae wrote: "So until July 2nd, at least we should be free to discuss whatever we wish"If you discuss it on your own thread , yes. But it is a disruption to the topic of this thread..."
Leslie - just stop - now. Okay?
Leslie wrote: "she is looking for people who disliked the diary"And I just posted a very easy solution to have exactly that kind of thread.
I´d say we stop giving attention to Lesley? Gosh you are very tiring, indeed....have not grasped that we do not care what you say? And again, if you are so decidely against this, then stop, delete your post and get on with your life. We will quit qhen she finnaly gives and answer.
She never said to take the discussion elsewhere - she said for us to stop, sit on our hands and wait, like sheep for the pastor.And i´ve never said she is young or old - because whatever age she is, if she comes out and talks whatever she wants, she must be ready to face what other people might think of her and say to her.
There is no groups of bullies and if she wanted that much she already had erased and asked GR to delete this topic - if she hasn´t donne that yet, then she is enjoying this catfight.
You essentially say "Anamika we are going to stand in your yard and discourage/stand in the way of anyone else coming to your door until you come out here and answer our questions, and we can do that as long as we like, even if you ask us to leave, because we are the majority and you can't stop us unless you tear down your house and move away."
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No, I was talking with them online, a random group of people brought together over some other topic, I can't even remember what that was, it was over 10 years ago. And the ignorance was mind-blowing. One look at the map would have proved them wrong that Iraq wasn't going to attack USA "just" like that and didn't have any attention to do that...
It's actually interesting that I have been labeled as "a sabre rattler" when in fact there is a big difference in willingness to defend your country and wanting war. Finns don't want war because they know how horrible it is, our parents and grandparents have told us about that, both veterans and civilians. But still many of us would be willing to give his or her life for Finland and other Finns if that was necessary, we owe that to the future generations. We just hope it never happens.
There is a "benefit" of having a conscription army: the ones dying won't be some unknown volunteers, there is no reason to "support the troops", because they will be our brothers, husbands and sons. The leaders won't be eager to send the troops to a war because they might have their own son in service, too, like President Ryti had during the Continuation War, I believe. President Koivisto had served himself, in the guerilla troops of Lauri Törni aka Major Larry Thorne, US Green Berets Born a Soldier: The Times and Life of Larry A Thorne.