Forge of Darkness [December 2018]

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Mayank wrote: "good point.. ."

(view spoiler)[
That's valid. I guess I was thinking he would have some loyalty to the people he grew up with but not necessarily.

There's also something in OST that I won't ruin since I know you haven't read it but I hadn't thought of it before and it plays into all of this.
(hide spoiler)]

[Akinwale]

Scott wrote: "Akinwale wrote: "Wow, you all finished. I'll hasten to finish in a day or two. "

No worries. Continue to post your thoughts. Are you down for Fall of Light?"

Yes. Just bought it. When is the reading to start?

[Akinwale]

What happened to the Hust Legion in the main series? I can't recall any mention of them or the Borderswords in the main series?

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Akinwale wrote: "

Yes. Just bought it. When is the reading to start? "

June 24th.

Akinwale wrote: "What happened to the Hust Legion in the main series? I can't recall any mention of them or the Borderswords in the main series?"

(view spoiler)[
They weren't mentioned by name but I believe they were all part of the Shake at that point. Defending the shore which in this book is the Vitr and the boarderswords. In BotF it was the shore of Lether. There was the one Hust sword that Yan Tovis's brother (cannot remember his name this early) wielded. I believe he was what was left of the Hust legions, or a descendent there of. Remember after Scandarbi Bloodeye's treason vs the K'Chain Che'Malle in Midnight Tides some Andii were trapped in shadow and over time there bloodlines were blended with Edur and Letherii. The Shake were those still with Andii blood if little of it.
(hide spoiler)]

[Akinwale]

Scott wrote: "Mayank wrote: "Arathan = someone who can walk on water (they talked about how he fell in ice despite his name)"

Yes Gothos said this. [spoilers removed]"

Chapter Sixteen (view spoiler)[" ..... None of those, for the borders they share with the Azathanai. No we must cross the sea I think. Sechul Lath started and then scowled. Whither fled Mael? He will not welcome us. Indeed not, Errastas agree. I think .... beyond his realm, even."
Arathan cannot be Mael. The above quote is from chapter 16 in a conversation between Errastas and Sechul Lath where they were discussing fleeing Azathanai. (hide spoiler)]

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Akinwale wrote: "."

Thanks for the quote I totally missed that. That theory was a total long shot but I'm glad to have it off my list.

[Slow]

good find !

[Angela, I'm Silverfox lost]

Buddy Read starts 1st December.

[Miche]

In!

[Bea]

I might do a reread, but I'm not sure yet.

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

This book is on sale today US Kindle $2.99 reduced from $9.99

[Miche]

Unfortunately the price didn't go down in Canada. :(

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Miche wrote: "Unfortunately the price didn't go down in Canada. :("

Ya the sales are hardly ever world wide. The UK has had some terrific sales that weren't reflected in the US.

[Angela, I'm Silverfox lost]

Miche, I'll be closer to the 7th for this as need to finish Assail and Wrath first.

[Angela, I'm Silverfox lost]

Started. Excited after I've just read the Dramatis Personae and seen some of the characters in the book. (view spoiler)[ Hood! (hide spoiler)]

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

He has a major role as do Draconus and Gothos.

[Angela, I'm Silverfox lost]

Intro and Chapter 1. (view spoiler)[ It's a little odd to read about some of the characters we know as much older characters in BotF.

Interesting that we're told in the intro that this is Blind Gallan talking to Fisher. Which increases my view that Fisher has been around a long time. Increasingly like that he's either an Ascendant (currently I think most likely) or as you suggested Scott the other theory is he's part Tiste Andii and therefore part Iceblood? (hide spoiler)]

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Angela wrote: "Intro and Chapter 1. It's a little odd to read about some of the characters we know as much older characters in BotF.
..."

(view spoiler)[I think that lends to Fisher being Azathai but probably excludes him from being Arathan's alter ego in BotF. I still have Arathan as Ruthan Gudd and an outside shot he's Edgewalker. (hide spoiler)]

[Angela, I'm Silverfox lost]

Scott I'ld lean more towards the son being (view spoiler)[ Ruthan Gudd as well. (view spoiler)[ (hide spoiler)] (hide spoiler)]

[Angela, I'm Silverfox lost]

Chapter 2 was amazing. (view spoiler)[ Anomander and Caladan Brood just met. Hard to believe that they would become friends. But they are tied together from this moment. I feel like I should have recalled Brood was a mason. (hide spoiler)]

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Angela wrote: "Chapter 2 was amazing. [spoilers removed]"

Such a great scene in how understated it was. I love the back history of the Azathanai.

[Choko]

I will be starting tomorrow...

[Angela, I'm Silverfox lost]

Yay Choko. I didn't realise you were up to date with the main series.

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

I didn't either. Are you doing a side by side? There are a few things in FoL which are mild spoilers for TCG.

[Angela, I'm Silverfox lost]

Scott wrote: "Chapter 3


.." Love your thoughts Scott. Agree the (view spoiler)[ Sandalath speculation is interesting. Hmm I'm thinking Korlat's father would be either Draconus or has to be someone associated with him. How tragic was the stones her drunk former lover and Orfantals father kept leaving for her? Interesting the Tiste Andii actually started with Nimander's children and all their retainers and that Mother Dark slowly seems to be taking the light away. (hide spoiler)]

[Angela, I'm Silverfox lost]

Scott wrote: "Chapter 4


. ..." Fascinating (view spoiler)[ seeing Tulas and knowing what his ending will be. The Vitr!! I didn't realise that originally it met up with Kurald. Slowing it's eating away at the land. I do wonder if this is near where Leoman and Kiska ended up.

A young Spinnock Durav. He's so innocent and naive. I'm sure that is soon to change. (view spoiler)[ (hide spoiler)] (hide spoiler)]

[Angela, I'm Silverfox lost]

Chapter 5 - 11. Miche, I'm missing you!!

(view spoiler)[
Chapter 5 - Arathan saying I'll live a life of hiding. Makes me think it's more likely he could be Ruthan Gudd. Grizzen Farl confirming Arathan's mother is alive!
Chapter 6 - I'm wondering if the Jheleck are the origin of the Hounds? They've been called that a couple of times. Orfantal's name means Shake. That can't be a coincidence.
Chapter 7 - Shake started off as a monastic order. T'riss arrived in a dragon. So at some point Tiste will be able to change into Dragons. As, up to this stage I can't see that any Tiste are able to change.
Chapter 8 - I'm enjoying reading some of the back story of K'rul, Kilmandros, Errantas and Sechul. I can't believe Errantas and Sechul killed Hood's wife!!!
Chapter 9 - Father Light Urusander or Osserc? I'm guessing Urusander. Is this balance that needs with Dark and Light. Tiste Liosan are born.
Chapter 11 - Wow Olar is Envy, Spite and Malice's mother!!! Mind blown. That Draconus. Why does he raise them though as he does where they pretty much run wild. Olar killing Raskan and believing it was a mercy. So the Arathanai are kind of gods in waiting? (hide spoiler)]

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Angela wrote: "Chapter 5 - 11. Miche, I'm missing you!!
.."

(view spoiler)[Olar Ethil being the mother of Spite and Envy made so much sense.

Grizzin Farl is another character I have my eye on as an outside shot of being Arathan or Edgewalker.

Father Light is Urusander.

The Errant and Sechul Lath being up to no good from the start is not surprising.

I love the entire parallel story of Gothos and Hood and how misunderstood the Jags were by the time of BotF. (hide spoiler)]

[Angela, I'm Silverfox lost]

Scott wrote: "Angela wrote: "Chapter 5 - 11. Miche, I'm missing you!!
.."

..." The more I think about it Scott the more Spite and Envy's mother makes sense.

[Angela, I'm Silverfox lost]

Up to Chapter 16 (view spoiler)[
How evil are Spite and Envy. Killing their own sister Malice and then she's able to come back due to her magic. I did really think they had killed her. Then going around trying to kill all the staff. It really makes sense that they are Olar's children, but also that they've been left to grow up wild.

It was harrowing reading the plunge to war and the death of Kadaspala's sister. How gruesome that he tore out his own eyes and now I fear he really is going mad.

The brother torn apart by what they find at the house. Andarist's grief and wanting to call Anomander's sword grief :(.

I knew the Jheleck pups were going to be the Hounds!! Haha they are going to be a wedding gift to Tulas and thus the connection is made. (view spoiler)[ (hide spoiler)] (hide spoiler)]

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Angela wrote: "Up to Chapter 16
..."

(view spoiler)[I keep thinking if Malice is going to be somebody in the main series. If she ascends she's no longer dead. I thought Poliel but Poliel has a sister Soleil but there's also relationships in Malazan like Mother Dark who isn't really the mother to Anomander and company. Maybe Malice is involved with Olar Ethil and the ritual of Telann and becomes an original T'lan Imass and Bonecaster, but if so which one? Other? (hide spoiler)]

[Angela, I'm Silverfox lost]

Scott wrote: "Angela wrote: "Up to Chapter 16
..."

[spoilers removed]" While her sisters (view spoiler)[ put her into the fire as when Malice was killed she didn't come back right. I can't yet see her as someone in the BotF series? Unless it's something to do with fire which now I type this and think on it does kind of relate to what happened to Olar. (view spoiler)[ (hide spoiler)] (hide spoiler)]

[Angela, I'm Silverfox lost]

I read through the comments and love the theories you were all talking about when you read the book originally.

Thoughts up to the end.
(view spoiler)[ This book has really made me dislike Envy and Spite. How horrible they were to their own sister. I still can't get over them burning her in the oven.

It's mind blowing that events in this book were mainly instigated by Hunn Raal. I'm guessing his main aim has been to try to reinstall his family. But his scheming was very broad. I note Toras Redone said to him, you don't drink as much as you appear too. So he gives the assumption he is a drunk, but he isn't really. It's a clever cover for his manoeuvring. I didn't really understand what he did to the Hust Legion. Did he poison them and their weapons?

The dragons coming through was awesome. I was trying to figure out how the dragons tied into this story given there didn't seem to be any around. I think your theories about nine dragons and their likely connection to magic.

I'm still going with Arathan being Ruthan Gudd at this stage. Partly their names are similar, Arathan is skilled with the sword and I wonder if the fact he fell into ice and nearly died is connected to when he fought in The Crippled God. It was clear Ruthan had strong magical powers and was referred to as Elder. I think Arathan is probably part Jaghut and with their affinity to ice this works in with Ruthan's power when he fought.

How great was the end with Hood calling and seeing everyone who answered his call.

I wonder if Quick Ben is in this book and we don't recognise him. The closest connection I can see is Korya and the fact she was playing with dolls and then meeting Varandas who was able to create dolls and bring them to life. I'm sure Ben is Tiste, but who he was originally I'm unclear on. (view spoiler)[ (hide spoiler)] (hide spoiler)]

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

(view spoiler)[
QB: I'm equally torn between him being in the book and being a descendent of Korya and Arathan. Outside shot QB is Arathan.

He poisoned the wine. The swords were linked to their owners. They scream in agony at the memory of the betray.

I love Hust. He has a few of my favorite quotes.
(hide spoiler)]

[Angela, I'm Silverfox lost]

I love the thought of your outside shot. (view spoiler)[ It seems possible, but I feel like he might have been found out by now. This is when a reread will come in handy as QB is one of those people I really want to play close attention to his parts.

Thanks re the Hust. I thought he must have poisoned the Hust Legion. No wonder they were in agony. (view spoiler)[ (hide spoiler)] (hide spoiler)]

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Angela wrote: "I love the thought of your outside shot...."

You then have to consider (view spoiler)[Torahaval Delat. Who would she be as QB's older sister? This is why I think he's descended from Korya and maybe Arathan. The way Torahaval's small part was written it was as a blood relative not daughter's of Father Shadow or Son's of Mother Dark kind of way. (hide spoiler)]

[Bea]

Scott wrote: "Angela wrote: "I love the thought of your outside shot...."

You then have to consider [spoilers removed]"

Is it ok to comment even though I'm not really doing the BR?
(view spoiler)[Could it be that Korya's soul has just been reincarnated many times among Ben's ancestors (who could additionally be her (and Arathan's??) descendants? That way Ben could have blood relatives and still be Korya.
I've been wondering why Ben has kept the name Delat when he's so scared of being found out (given that he actually is Korya of course).
(hide spoiler)]

[Angela, I'm Silverfox lost]

Scott wrote: "Angela wrote: "I love the thought of your outside shot...."

You then have to consider [spoilers removed]"
Scott and Bea. You've sent me down a rabbit hole thinking about QB. (view spoiler)[ It is plausible that QB is Korya reincarnated thorough the Delat line. Interesting point re keeping his last name. Though didn't Gudd react when he heard QB's whole name. I thought it was specifically his middle name that got Gudd's attention, Adaephon?

In TCG QB at the Spar of Andii referred to mother and father and I assumed it was Mother Dark and Father Light. Though agree if he is Korya reincarnated then of course he would say mother. I thought when he referred to us he meant humans, but maybe it isn't, it is Tiste Andii.

Ben Adaephon Delat tightened his grip on the horse’s mane. ‘You do your part, Mother. Let Father do his, if he’s of a mind to. But it comes down to us. So stand back. Shield your eyes, because I swear to you, we will blaze!(view spoiler)[ (hide spoiler)] (hide spoiler)]

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Angela wrote: "."
Bea wrote: "..."

(view spoiler)[Interesting theory. Given SEs proclivity with the gods being both sexes, K'rul and others, this wouldn't shock me.

Also along these lines. In FoD Korya plays with dolls, QB remembers doing so as a child. Korya is a mahybe and like Silverfox could contain multiple souls, we know QB has many souls.

Regarding Arathan. A few theories other than Ruthan Gudd.

Grizzin Farl since the T'lan Imass call him elder. I still like Grizzin Farl for Edgewalker but there's definitely a link there.

Angela there's a character you haven't met yet called Skillen Droe who I also like for Edgewalker and an outside shot for Ruthan Gudd.

Arathan is Icarium. What if Gothos wasn't Icarium's birth father? What if estranged from Draconus he chose to call Gothos father? We don't know the origins of Icarium or Arathan's mothers. Draconus is Azathanai. What if Arathan's mother is Jaghut and that's the Jaghut half. It would make some sense that Draconus was responsible for Spite, Envy, Malic and Time.

In MOI Envy says gesture. ‘A misguided sibling who’d thought he was being kind. All right, perhaps that was too simplistic an answer. My sibling had found the goddess, terribly damaged by the Fall, and needed a warm-blooded place to lay her spirit, so that it could heal. Serendipity. The ay’s pack was dead, whilst she herself was too young to survive in normal circumstances. Worse yet, she was the last left on the entire continent.’

‘Your sibling has a misplaced sense of mercy, Lady Envy.’


Extinct animals are lost to all but time. (hide spoiler)]

[Bea]

Scott wrote: "Angela wrote: "."
Bea wrote: "

(view spoiler)[Arathan being Icarium never occurred to me.
What about his looks? I believe he is never really described, but it is said he doesn't look that much like a Tiste and "had not the fair skin or tall frame". Icarium is over seven feet tall iirc, so that doesn't really fit.

What I've also been wondering: Rake said in MoI that he had heard of a soul that wandered into a different body.
Could this refer to Korya? If so, does her soul wander into a different body or does a soul wander into her body?

Two sentences from Ben's monologue in TCG that puzzle me:

"The two us us did the best I could"
"We did what you both wanted"
Who are "the two of us"? Who are "you both"? If the "father" he addresses were Draconus, could it be that Ben has both the souls of Korya and Arathan inside himself? Thus one part of himself addresses Mother Dark as mother, the other part addresses Draconus as father.
I know this theory is probably a bit too crazy to be true but speculating is fun (especially when you're just sitting around waiting for Christmas dinner ;) (hide spoiler)]

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Bea wrote: "Scott wrote: "Angela wrote: "."
Bea wrote: ""

(view spoiler)[
Let's get the entire quote to put this in context.

‘After a moment his breath caught and he half turned. When he spoke his tone was apologetic. ‘Ah, Mother, it’s old blood, I don’t deny it. Old and thin.’ He hesitated, and then said, ‘Tell Father I make no apologies for my choice – why should I? No matter. The two of us did the best I could.’He grunted in humour. ‘And you might say the same thing.’

He turned back.

Darkness was knotting into something solid before him. He watched it for a time, saying nothing, although her presence was palpable, vast in the gloom behind him. ‘If he’d wanted blind obedience, he should have kept me chained. And you, Mother, you should have kept me a child forever, there under your wing.’ He sighed, somewhat shakily. ‘We’re still here, but then, we did what you both wanted. We almost got them all. The one thing none of us expected was how it would change us.’ He glanced back again, momentarily. ‘And it has.’

Within the circle before him, the dark form opened crimson eyes. Hoofs cracked like iron axe-blades on the stone.

He grasped the apparition’s midnight mane and swung on to the beast’s back. ‘’ Ware your child, Mother.’ He drew the horse round, walked it along the ledge a few strides and then back to the mouth of the tunnel. ‘I’ve been among them for so long now, what you gave me is the barest whisper in the back of my soul. You offered scant regard for humans, and now it’s all coming down. But I give you this.’ He swung the horse round. ‘Now it’s our turn. Your son opened the way. And as for his son, well, if he wants the Sceptre, he’ll have to come and take it.’

Ben Adaephon Delat tightened his grip on the horse’s mane. ‘You do your part, Mother. Let Father do his, if he’s of a mind to. But it comes down to us. So stand back. Shield your eyes, because I swear to you, we will blaze! When our backs are against the wall, Mother, you have no idea what we can do.’
(hide spoiler)]

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

To the elongate quote

(view spoiler)[
I think there were definitely two souls to start and the reference to we nearly got them all is to the soul collection. Father keeping him chained is the secret to finding out who he is. Through two books nobody has been literally chained other than Hood by Gothos but we know it isn't him. It could be symbolic making Arathan the son of Draconus and another.

I do think this more represents mother dark "Your son opened the way. And as for his son, well, if he wants the Sceptre, he’ll have to come and take it" Could it be his parents are Draconus and Mother Dark? That would make sense for both Arathan and QB.

(hide spoiler)]

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Re Icarium

(view spoiler)[Physically his being half Azathanai and potentially half Jaghut perhaps he had to make a choice on physical form? Or perhaps during his trying to free Gothos from the Azath he forgot he had the ability to shape shift? (hide spoiler)]

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

BTW this little gem starts GotM chapter 24:

I am the House imprisoning in my birth demonic hearts, so locked in each chamber some trembling enraged antiquity. And these roots of stone spread the deepest cracks in parched ground holding forever the dream of fruit, ah, pilgrims come to my door and starve . . . AZATH (II.III) ADAEPHON (B.?)

QB? Relative?

Also chapter 4 from GotM

“Sorry for not giving you warning,” Quick Ben said, emerging from the swirling cloud of his Warren. It held a strange, spicy scent. “Company’s coming,” he said, seeming distracted. “I’ve called Hairlock. He comes by Warren.” Tattersail shivered as a wave of premonition brushed her spine. She faced the Deck again and began to collect the cards.

Also from GoTM chapter 12

“It is you! Delat! You shape-shifting bastard!” Quick Ben smiled. He’d done it. He was out of reach. He’d done it— again.

[Angela, I'm Silverfox lost]

I love the speculation.

(view spoiler)[ I think I would lean more towards Grizzen being Edgewalker, but I'm not yet convinced he is.

I'm inclined at this point to think Arathan is half Jaghut. Draconus often kept him close when they met people on their journey to the Gothos and it felt like he was sometimes shielding Arathan from being seen. I just can't see Arathan as Icarium. Their physically doesn't match unless Arathan goes through some kind of change. Which given how Azanathani can change. It's not out of the realm of possibility.

Misguided sibling. I could see how this might be QB in that he has so many souls in him, that there are souls we don't know about.

QB and Arathan parents being Mother Dark and Draconus. I like that theory Scott. QB does have the skin colour to have been around Mother Dark and therefore part Tiste Andii.

"Your son opened the way. (I thought this was Rake) and his son was Nimander?

Do we know what form QB can shape shift into? Is it a dragon? He always tried to stay away from Tiste. (hide spoiler)]

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

BTW another theory (view spoiler)[is Tayschrenn. I don't buy into it but given how his character turns out in TCG it's not beyond possibility. There is knowledge in P2A which highly makes me doubt it.

Nimander was the name of Rake's father and also the son left on Drift Avalii. I believe the quote is about Anomander as well but remember Silchas reopened, or helped, the path to Starvald Demelain. Rake opened the path from Dragnipur and from the land of the dead. (hide spoiler)]

[Bea]

Scott wrote: ""

(view spoiler)[I'm not a fan of this theory either. It's because of the name Arthantos, isn't it?

As for Draconus and MD having a child: I have wondered if Arathan could be their son as well.
Btw. is it mentioned anywhere how long they have been together? (hide spoiler)]

[Bea]

(view spoiler)[Since I'm in a theory mood:
Who do you guys think is Anomander's (and his brothers') real mother?
It is a weird matter. On the one hand they don't know who their mother is. On the other hand should not Rake as the oldest brother have some memories of her?
Unless their memories were taken away by magic.
Additionally, they must have been legitimate children (with a known mother),
otherwise they would not be accepted by the Tiste society, right? If so, isn't it weird that nobody ever talked to them about their mother?

Here comes my theory: could their mother be Mother Dark's elder half-sister?

A quite from a dialoge between Caplo and Triss:
"There was a queen once...She died on the field of battle.
Her husband was not among the nobility, yet greatly revered for his martial prowess. When he fell, mortally wounded....Thereafter her body was not found, although that of her husband was."
Nimander senior died in battle but this was only one year ago, right? So that doesn't really fit. However, it is only said he was mortally wounded, so maybe he didn't die?
I believe it's also said somewhere that Nimander returned from war crippled.
As for him not being a noble, could that be possible?(very mild FoL-spoiler) (view spoiler)[According to Brood the name Purake was given by K'rul. So apparently it's not an old house name (hide spoiler)]
If the Brothers Dark were Mother Dark's nephews it would make sense why she cares for them so much.
MD says to Rake "you always worry me, first son. One day I will tell you about your mother"
That sounds like she didn't have the best relationship to his mother. In that Caplo/Triss dialogue it sounds like the two sisters were quite different, so maybe they didn't like each other?
Of course this is only possible if the three sons were born in secret because otherwise there would probably be some nobles demanding that Rake should be king.

Do you think this might be possible? It's been a while since I read FoD so I might have forgotten more details speaking against this, of course. (hide spoiler)]

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Bea wrote: "Scott wrote: ""

I'm not a fan of this theory either. It's because of the name."

(view spoiler)[Yes Arthanthos is part of it. Its a popular theory online but not one I'm partial to. (hide spoiler)]

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Bea wrote: "Since I'm in a theory mood:"

(view spoiler)[
It's possible. I've really been so hyper focused on Arathan, Korya, Grizzin Farl and Skillen Droe that I hadn't really thought about Rake maternal mother.........but how about Tiam herself?

BTW I just thought of another for Arathan's mother, the Eres'al. I still think Mother Dark is the front runner but if Draconus fathered Spite and Envy with Olar Ethil why not Arathan with the Eres'al?

(hide spoiler)]