Forge of Darkness [December 2018]

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Mayank wrote: "good point Scott. Though i wonder how you remember where to look for relevant references."

I have a really good memory and scenes like the MOI prologue I remembered most of it but having all the books on Kindle I simply searched for the section I wanted and re-read the relevant details. If I can't remember which book or specifics I search the link below. I don't think you've read Blood and Bone yet but there was a section of that prologue I had forgotten completely and If I had I would have known a lot of secrets of that book from the start. The prologue although foreboding for MOI and BotF also is for Empire. Amazing how the two of them pulled that off. I agree with your spoiler that was terrific.

http://malazan.wikia.com/wiki/Malazan...

[Slow]

ah.. i wish i can develop a strong memory..

My books are split between hardcopy and kindle. I think I might buy soft copies of all just to be able to search the books. That is one very powerful use of ebooks.

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Mayank wrote: "That's assuming the release date for either of them don't change again ."

I've love ebooks for this very reason. When I did a book on audio and can't search it bums me out.

[Slow]

In the 7th chapter now.

(view spoiler)[
Ilgast says Denul is the Shake word for the feeling while healing. Wasn't it mentioned as a warren in the main series?

Who are Deniers? They have been mentioned a couple of times now, but I don't remember them from earlier books, or anywhere in the story so far.

Scara Bandaris sounds very similar to the Tiste who betrayed Silchas Ruin and formed the Edur race !
(hide spoiler)]

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Re: chapter 7(view spoiler)[
Scara Bandaris is the same person as Scabandari Bloodeye. Much like we are seeing father light break off of the Anddi with the Liosan I think we'll eventually see the same with the Edur.

The Deniers to the best of my recall were not in the original series. I had at first thought there may be Wickan ties but I'm leaning towards T'Lan Imass. Olar Ethil at this point is an Azathanai not the Bonecaster god of the T'Lan Imass I think that's still coming.

Denul is a warren but this is given it's origin. I think SE is going for an American Indian style of magic through feeling. I also don't believe the warrens are fully developed at this point in the story. There's references to this earlier but in chapter 8 you'll find a major one.
(hide spoiler)]

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Also...

(view spoiler)[If you tie this together from the MOI prologue I posted previously Kallor's meeting with K'rul, Draconus and Nightchill hasn't happened yet. Thus Kallor's comments below.

Kallor shrugged. ‘If that would help. More directly, however, you seem to forget my … experience. For all that I seem to grate upon all of you, I have walked this land when the T’lan Imass were but children. I have commanded armies a hundred thousand strong. I have spread the fire of my wrath across entire continents, and sat alone upon tall thrones. Do you grasp the meaning of this?’

‘Yes. You never learn, Kallor.’ (said by Brood)

(hide spoiler)]

[Slow]

hmm.. so this means what we are reading is, to the best of my understanding, (view spoiler)[ the time before there were 3 different types of Tiste.. everyone lived in Kurald Galain.. someone started adopting Dark which led to events.. and two factions left (Liosan and Edur) to form/claim their own lands.. somehow Shake got involved in the middle and .. wow.. this would be fun to read.

Thanks for the heads up ! (hide spoiler)]

[Slow]

Scott wrote: "Re: chapter 7
Scara Bandaris is the ..."

(view spoiler)[cool.. I will pay more attention to Scara Bandaris.

We have mention of Forkrul, Jaghut, Soletaken, Tiste and Azathanai till now. Imass are missing from the picture (atleast till now). They maybe Deniers as you said, but at this point they should be neglected by all the races, as they would be the least powerful among others. Can Deniers be simply a reference to those Tiste who are denying Dark and later form Light/Liosan?

(actually one important race missing from the picture is K'Chain Che'Malle. Hope somehow we see their interaction with these races too).
(hide spoiler)]

[Akinwale]

Scott wrote: "Mayank wrote: "That's assuming the release date for either of them don't change again ."

I've love ebooks for this very reason. When I did a book on audio and can't search it bums me out."

I can relate. Searched everywhere for "The Power Broker" in ebook format, eventually had to settle for Audible audio book. For audio books you also can't highlight which is something i do a lot.

[Akinwale]

Mayank wrote: "Scott wrote: "Re: chapter 7
Scara Bandaris is the ..."

cool.. I will pay more attention to S..."

There is so much going on underneath that I might have missed if reading this alone. Looking forward to re-reading the main series already (view spoiler)[What about the Jhelecks? I can remember if they featured in the main series. Also curious to see how the Jheleck hostages from chapter six will turn out (hide spoiler)]

[Akinwale]

Just finished chapter 7
(view spoiler)[Wondering if Vitr is in some way similar to Dragnipur with prisoners. Or how else can we explain T'riss fighting her way out of the sea (hide spoiler)]

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Akinwale wrote: "Just finished chapter 7
[spoilers removed]"

(view spoiler)[
It's explained a lot more in Empire's later books but you're not far off in that the Vitr is chaos and Dragnipur is fighting chaos.
(hide spoiler)]

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Mayank wrote: "Scott wrote: "Re: chapter 7."

(view spoiler)[
Can Deniers be simply a reference to those Tiste who are denying Dark and later form Light/Liosan?

I believe Vatha Urusander (father light) and Osserc become the Liosan. You might have something with shadow though. I'm not sure how Scandarbi would play into that.
(hide spoiler)]

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Chapter 13 is a lot of philosophy although I enjoyed Kadaspala part quite a bit. Then all hell breaks loose.....(view spoiler)[Spite, Envy and Malice going Bauchelin and Korbald Broach in a hurry.

Remember I said Draconus and thus his children were not Tiste?

‘You were too young to understand Father,’ said Spite, ‘when he talked to us about how we were going to grow up. Eight years, just like the Tiste, and nobody knows any different. We grow up like the rest of them. But just for those first eight years. Or nine.’

‘That’s because we’re not Tiste,’ said Envy in a whisper. Spite nodded, her hand sliding round Malice’s throat. ‘We’re different. ’

‘But Mother was—’

‘Mother?’ Spite snorted. ‘You know nothing about Mother. It’s a secret. Only me and Envy know, since you’re not old enough, not important enough.’

‘Father says it’s in our natures,’ Envy added.

‘What is?’ Malice asked.

‘Growing up … fast.’

‘Scary fast,’ Spite said, nodding. ‘Arathan—’

‘He’s different—’

‘No he isn’t, Spite,’ Envy said.

‘Yes he is!’ ‘Well, half different, then. But you saw how he grew past us.’

‘After the ice.’

So Draconus is Azathanai as is Olar Ethil and and then Arathan's mother we have even less info but I'm banking on Jaghut. Thus Arathan is half different.
(hide spoiler)]

[Slow]

Scott wrote: "Chapter 13 ..."
hmm.. I am done with Chapter 8, so only 5 chapters behind you.. weekend approaching.. hoping to catch up :)

I am resisting so hard to not read the spoilers for the chapters I haven't read.. it's so tempting :)

Chapter 8 thoughts (post reading Scott's comments):
(view spoiler)[
Karish's death would mean some revenge from Jaghut, and maybe this leads to their war on death, with Hood's anger that Scott mentioned?

We saw Errastas planning against elder gods and pretty much everyone in the main series. We see the seeds even when he was young. Though not sure why he did this.
Also, I am slightly confused.. aren't Azathanai unborn? so, what does Grizzin or K'rul having kids mean? Also, there has to be atleast 2 different types of Azathanai, as some become Elder Gods (K'rul) and others don't (Brood). Maybe this is explained later.

talking of K'rul.. he is creating warrens with his blood.. so we get to see how it all started. This means we will potentially see dragons fighting sometime in the series. Sweet !

No Tiste have yet talked about converting to dragons.. so am waiting when they get that power !

Mother Dark gets her powers from diving into Chaos.. that is quite neat actually as it makes all the powers circular and deriving from one another. Erikson keeps referring to the concept of civilisation, so maybe he is, in different ways, alluding to the war between order and chaos. Both have their flaws, neither is more correct. This has been a sort of central theme across all these books.

(hide spoiler)]

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Re: chapter 8
(view spoiler)[
The difference between gods like K'rul and ascendants like Brood is followers and belief but as we know from the main series with Rallick and Mael that's binding both ways.

Although I'm not sure why Erastas thinks it will work, his motivation in provoking Hood and the Jaghut is to keep K'rul from creating the warrens and sharing power amongst all, and in his words lessening it's worth.
(hide spoiler)]

Chapter 14

(view spoiler)[
That was one of the more brutal chapters to read in terms of cruelty. Even though you know things end badly for Enesdia that was brutal.

Because the Liosan are such a small part of BotF and Empire I have a hard time remembering who was who and if they are showing up in this series. In TCG and for Empire with Kiska and Leoman.
(hide spoiler)]

[Slow]

Scott wrote: "Re: chapter 8

The difference between gods like ..." Ah, yes.. that was mentioned in the books but slipped my mind. A re-read would definitely help.

On Errastas, you are spot on. It was mentioned in their conversation, but I could recall it only when you mentioned it. Thanks.

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Chapter 15.....wow that is one of the saddest chapters in all of Malazan which is saying something.

(view spoiler)[
First off it was great to spend time with the Purake brothers and just like that they are no more. I thought Andarist's part in BotF was weird in that it was so short and he had zero personality and not in reflection it was all grief. I cannot imagine living for that long with that type of grief.

I wish I paid more attention to Kadaspala's part in Dragnipur. Having read all of this his character would make a lot more sense. Again just brutal grief.

The parts at the beginning of the chapter with Mother Dark and Hust were so good and yet so over shadowed by the end of the chapter.

Hish Tulla and Grizzin Farl had very touching parts.
(hide spoiler)]

[Slow]

you have got amazing reading speed and now i can't wait to get to chapter 15 !

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Mayank wrote: "you have got amazing reading speed and now i can't wait to get to chapter 15 !"

I think I'm more consistent than fast. I try to knock out 50-60 pages per day. Granted 50-60 Malazan pages is like twice that of a normal book. :)

[Slow]

Chapter 9

(view spoiler)[
yay.. we see the origins of Liossan.. fits with Scott's comments earlier.. though didn't expect Syntara to be instrumental !

we also learn about who Deniers are.

Finally, we get to 'see' Mother Dark.. and Anomander getting angry.. and T'riss's power.

Anomander was asked by Mother Dark to keep peace, and he seems to not think negatively about Draconus. So it will be interesting to see how they interact going forward. In the main books, they are not the best friends, so now I am waiting for the reveal of the reason about what caused their differences - my guess is their different ways to solving the civil war.


(hide spoiler)]

[Akinwale]

Mayank wrote: "Scott wrote: "Chapter 13 ..."
hmm.. I am done with Chapter 8, so only 5 chapters behind you.. weekend approaching.. hoping to catch up :)

I am resisting so hard to not read the spoilers for the ch..."

(view spoiler)[Tiste converting to dragons would probably involve some form of ritual as they were referred to as Soletaken when they do and are different from the Eleint (Silanah, Korobas etc) which are the real dragons (hide spoiler)]

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Akinwale wrote: ""

(view spoiler)[
The Elient were soletaken dragons. I do believe when K'rul completes making the warrens this will all come to fruition. I'm not sure if it will be in this book but it will be in this series.
(hide spoiler)]

[Slow]

yeah.. the dragons part seem to be next book(s),

finished chapter 10.. it was amazing.

(view spoiler)[
same reaction as Scott on Burn reveal.. brilliantly done !

Dog-runners seem to be Imass now given the mention of Ay and Bonecasters. Though does that make Burn Imass? or is it just that Imass worshipped Burn?
Also more clarity provided on Deniers. Seems they are Tiste who continued worshipping old gods and didn't accept Mother Dark. Some influence of Dog runners also seems possible.

These books basically are downgrading the Tiste to the same level as humans by making them involved in dirty politics and short-sighted selfishness. Oh well !
(hide spoiler)]

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Chapter 16, that was a great chapter. So much going on.

(view spoiler)[
When they came upon the house and Draconus said it was necessary the house be I thought for sure I he was giving Arathan to the house to be it's guardian and we would have the advent of of the Azath houses as know in BotF. It does appear they might be used for travel already. Errastas and Setch.......the misery that could have been saved.

Interesting the scene with Kilmandaros where she's the projected as the goddess of love where in BotF it was more about justice and here she talks of justice and it's destructiveness.

I realized before they got to the lord of hate and thought myself so foolish for not realizing it was Gothos. Gothos Folly now makes so much more sense. Trying to understand life through death and always looking to the sunrise where Hood looked to the sunset. So brilliant. This of course made me think of Icarium.........

Several theories on this one and you guys are going to kill me since a few are a real stretch. From BotF it was said that he was half Toblakai but at this point they don't exist so perhaps he doesn't come into the story until much later. It was also theorized that Kilmandaros was his mother.

With Korya showing up I'm first wondering if she's his mother, and yes I know I have several other Korya theories floating out there. But then there's Arathan. We know he's Azathanai and that they can take the form they want.

Now for the really crazy one....What if through Gothos writings he becomes his adopted son and chases the gift of time taking on a half Jaghut form and becoming time itself fighting chaos's chase of the end of time? Whacked I know but....

The scene between Hood, Draconus and Arathan...WOW. That was so intense and yet so philosophical.

Varandas and his dolls. That was an interesting scene and I'm not sure I got all of it but it would almost seem he's involved with the soul taken and interesting the references to the Nanchts. I wonder if this will play into the three nachts on the island with Withal or the ones with Pust. There's also the mhybe aspect to this which is still confusing.

All in all that was a lot of information. I started the next chapter and was somewhat disappointed to be among "normal" characters again after scenes with these immortal characters who have been with us for so long.
(hide spoiler)]

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Mayank wrote: "chapter 10"

(view spoiler)[
If you remember in MOI Silverfox's mother was a mhybe and Hood and K'Rul helped take her and make another realm. Burn is referenced in there. I can't quote the entire thing because it's too complicated but if you have the Kindle copy re-read pages 874-884.

That said was she an Imass, Dog runner or even Azathanai to start out? It's not clear but I lean towards Azathanai but it's hard to really argue without more information.
(hide spoiler)]

[Slow]

that book sits with one of my friends who i am trying to get into the Malazan world.. no kindle copy yet.. will read soon.

Chapter 11 done.. she is an evil witch !

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Mayank wrote: "that book sits with one of my friends who i am trying to get into the Malazan world.. no kindle copy yet.. will read soon.

Chapter 11 done.. she is an evil witch !"

Yes she is easy to hate picking right up where she left off in TCG.

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Chapter 17 was a lot of war setup and intrigue. A lot of the violence of Capustan and some of the BotF battles with little mercy.

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Chapter 18

(view spoiler)[
So Syntara is revealed as a mhybe as well. I wonder if she'll have the same fate as Burn and Silverfox's mother? She's obviously power hunger and her going to sleep wouldn't be her in plans.

Does this mean Korya is slated for the mhybe of the Edur? I don't see why the Jaghut would be motivated to make a mhybe for this purpose so perhaps another realm? Or Scara Banderas steals her for his own means?

Interesting that to this point Urusander is being led by the nose into becoming father light.
(hide spoiler)]

[Slow]

what the hell happened in chapter 13 !
these three are super nasty and undying !

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Mayank wrote: "what the hell happened in chapter 13 !
these three are super nasty and undying !"

Wait for it.......

[Slow]

chapter 14.. you did warn us Scott, but it still hurt to read.. what a sad chapter.

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Mayank wrote: "chapter 14.. you did warn us Scott, but it still hurt to read.. what a sad chapter."

19 while not as sad is pretty shocking at the conclusion. (view spoiler)[Hunn Raal is reaching Kallor levels. (hide spoiler)]

[Slow]

Chapter 16.. so many big characters !

(view spoiler)[
so now we know who Lord of Hate is, and what Hood is going to do.. the only guesses which proved right :)

I wanted Kilmandaros to be more impressive than she is shown, but maybe it's not supposed to be.

I read Scott's theories, but somehow i get the feeling Arathan is going to become Icarium. He doesn't really like Azathanai, but gets turned into a weapon by Azath followers. And forgets his past. Too much stretch?

At the end we finally see Draconus' magic. I am wondering why couldn't he have done it instead of the whole journey on horses??
(hide spoiler)]

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

I'm not sure if you buy my far fetched Arathan theory or not.

I'm done. Review below. I'll follow up with a summary post later and continue to respond to posts here. I hope you guys are up for Fall of Light later this month.

https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

[Slow]

I just finished too.. phew !

(view spoiler)[
We finally see Rake turning into more than a soldier. Andarist already looks like the version we saw in the main series. Silchas is still a mystery.

Dragons are here. Yay !

And Hood is preparing for the battle. We know he warred with death from the main books, but it was also hinted there's more to it. Will wait for it with all curiosity.

The only thing not well explained is that despite so many powerful characters in the realm, how did Hunn Raal manage to do so much.

Also, i don't really understand what he did to the Hust Legion. What was that about the blades singing together?

(hide spoiler)]

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Wow you powered through.

(view spoiler)[
Yes Hood and the dragons I totally agree. Regarding the Dragons there were nine. Obviously the number is significant but
1. Andii,
2. Jaghut,
3. Forkrul Assail,
4. Thel Akai,
5. K'Chain Che'malle,
6. Liosan,
7. Dragons,
8. Death
9. Azath

That covers people but then there's still Denul (healing), the Beast Hold, Earth, Water, Sky, Shadow (Meanas not Emurlahn)......
(hide spoiler)]

Are you down for Fall of Light on the 24th? I hope you enjoyed our discussions, I did.

[Slow]

yes and yes !

I was really sad after hearing about London attacks and spent the whole day at home.. which meant lots of reading time .. news and this book.

Definitely up for the next book, and this time i will try to keep pace with you. In the meanwhile i aim to finish one more of the Esselmont's.

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Mayank wrote: "yes and yes !

I was really sad after hearing about London attacks and spent the whole day at home.. which meant lots of reading time .. news and this book.

Definitely up for the next book, and th..."

I added more to my spoiler. We were out and I hadn't heard about the London attacks until your post. It's really crazy reading this book and there are so many parallels to the real world.

[Slow]

yeah.. i live in London.. and those are some of my favourite places in the city.. hate those people who have this twisted mindset to hurt others.
And exactly, some parts of the book, even though set in fictional lands, fit really close to the real world.

Great point about the significance of Nine. Though (view spoiler)[ K'Chain Che'malle might not get a dragon as they are neither in the book nor they used magic. Instead that one might become the Otataral Dragon, anti-sorcery one! Also Edur might claim one dragon if death does not get any.

To me your second part sounds more possible that each warren gets a dragon (similar to what's in the main series). Eight main warrens get created + one anti-sorcery dragon. It can be explained by the fact that Jaghut, Bonecasters, Soletaken, etc don't really need warrens for their magic but derive it from ancient/natural powers. On the other hand, humans derive their magic from these warrens invested within individual dragons.

I am sure this will be a super reveal !
(hide spoiler)]

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Mayank wrote: "yeah.. i live in London.. and those are some of my favourite places in the city.. hate those people who have this twisted mindset to hurt others."

My heart goes out to the victim's, your city and you.

(view spoiler)[
The Otataral dragon is linked to the Crippled God and those events haven't taken place yet. So she wouldn't get a warren.

Death definitely gets a dragon and a gate. The only ones we can be 100% sure of at this point are dark, death, Jaghut, Dragon, Forkrul, Thel Akai and Azath.

I had to look it up but you are correct. The K'Chain Che'malle did have magic but lacked a warren. That's kind of an interesting fact. I wonder why SE went that route? Where they so ancient like the river god that they defied the warren/hold system. It would be an interesting question to ask him.
(hide spoiler)]

[Akinwale]

Wow, you all finished. I'll hasten to finish in a day or two. I'm around the half way mark. Quick question though, what is the meaning of Arathan, I think it was mentioned earlier (view spoiler)[I'm curious about the the reason behind Olar Ethil's laugh in chapter 11 (hide spoiler)]

[Slow]

Arathan = someone who can walk on water (they talked about how he fell in ice despite his name)

[Slow]

Thank you for the kind words Scott.

(view spoiler)[
Ah yes, otataral itself got created due to Jade giants. Then the nine dragons can't include any otataral one.

I remember Death's gate, but can't recall what Dragon of Death was. Need to re-read the books.

I think K'Chain are way more ancient than even Forkrul, who precede Jaghut. Even though the last two were created by Azathanai, there is no mention of K'Chain being created by these god-like beings. Though, given the book is limited to Kurald Galain, it is possible that K'Chain exist independently in some other realm, unknown till later.
(hide spoiler)]

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Mayank wrote: "Arathan = someone who can walk on water (they talked about how he fell in ice despite his name)"

Yes Gothos said this. (view spoiler)[Which why I didn't think of this until now but is he Mael???? OMG I feel so stupid for not seeing that sooner! Not that it's definitely but I thought it odd he hadn't come up in this book and now that you brought that back up it's such an plausible conclusion. (hide spoiler)]

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Akinwale wrote: "Wow, you all finished. I'll hasten to finish in a day or two. "

No worries. Continue to post your thoughts. Are you down for Fall of Light?

[Slow]

Scott wrote: "Mayank wrote: "Arathan = someone who can walk on water (they talked about how he fell in ice despite his name)"

Yes Gothos said this..."

(view spoiler)[
it would be super crazy feeling to see Arathan become Mael. Though I am not convinced yet, maybe next books give us a few more clues to form a theory. The closest I could think of is Arathan turning into Arathanos - the name Tayschrenn chose when fighting in Pannion Wars. But even that sounds far-fetched.
(hide spoiler)]

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Mayank wrote: "."

I love your theory! I would absolutely love that because it's so subtle and would have been worked in since book #1!!!!! The only downside I see to it is (view spoiler)[The Malazans were constantly fighting against Rake and the Andii. (hide spoiler)]

[Slow]

good point.. (view spoiler)[why would he fight against Andii? Though,
in the next books, if Andii turn against Draconus, Arathan might lose any solidarity towards them if not openly fighting against them. He is not a pure Tiste anyways.
Also, in book 1 we see that Tayschrenn was able to reply to Rake's power, while protecting his mages. So his sorcery is great. Also he fought off Kallor after Whiskeyjack's death. But despite this great power, he doesn't interfere in politics and Malazan affairs. He appears in Return of the Crimson Guard not to fight on any side, but to avert a danger to the whole world itself.
On all counts, Tayschrenn seems like a reluctant superpower, almost a reluctant God - just like most of the Azathanai??

Oh wow, I have literally just put this together, and even if I am completely wrong, I am impressed with myself :)
(hide spoiler)]