Forge of Darkness [December 2018]

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

July 6th. First book of the Kharkanas Trilogy.

Edit: moved to May 26th to read Deadhouse Landing upon release

[Quinn]

Should I read other book before this one?

[Bill]

Definitely. Part of what is great about this series is getting to see younger versions of the tiste and gods from the main series. There are also revels in the main series that would lose their impact if you knew what happened from this series.

[Quinn]

Bill wrote: "Definitely. Part of what is great about this series is getting to see younger versions of the tiste and gods from the main series. There are also revels in the main series that would lose their imp..."

Ok thank you, maybe I should do a buddy reading for the other malazan and hopefully someone join me?

[Chris]

Well, the timing on this kinda blows: http://www.tor.com/2017/03/22/malazan...

Tor.com is quitting the re-reads of the Malazan books.

[Bill]

Well they did 16 books so it would be some time before you catch up anyway.

I'm sure you can find someone to buddy read with. I think every group I'm part of has done this series at some point.

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

As the series has gone on I've had to use the re-reads less and less and with the B&KB and Empire books I hardly ever use it. I have a feeling I'll miss it when the 3rd Kharkanas book comes out.

[Quinn]

Aww that is too bad

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Moved to May 26th to read Deadhouse Landing upon release

[Slow]

I will join too..

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Mayank wrote: "I will join too.."

Glad to have you aboard!

[Akinwale]

This will be my first buddy read. Let see how it goes.

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Akinwale wrote: "This will be my first buddy read. Let see how it goes."

Awesome. Glad you decided to join.

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Starting tomorrow.

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Prelude

(view spoiler)[
Interesting that this is Galan telling the story to Fisher. Also of not that Galan claims he is unreliable. Is this simply because nobody's memories are perfect or a disclaimer in case any dates or times don't match with BotF? Usually with preludes there can be what became myth or time as the discrepancy but having immortals these things come to memory.

I had to read some of the sentences several times. I get what SE was going for, a man (tiste) waxing poetically but the wording was a bit difficult. I'm partway into chapter one right now and you forget how one SE page is three in a normal book.
(hide spoiler)]

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Chapter one.

Already the sprinkling of names I know but cannot place from BotF. Some played such minor roles and I had to look them up. Knowing that they don't have the best of endings..........

(view spoiler)[
First off Malice. I don't think she was ever mentioned in BotF. It is interesting she's references as one of Draconus's three twin daughters. They have a different mother than Arathan. I also don't remember Arathan from BotF. It's hard not to like him already and feel bad for him. Malice certainly lives up to her name.

Living in a house with Spite, Envy and Malice sort of reminds me of the shining with the twins.

Kadaspala the artist was in BotF.....chained within Dragnipur.....

The Lord of Hate.......I remember references in BotF however if his identity was given I don't remember it.

Azathanai.......so they built the bridge and were great masons. I thought from Empire where they simply gods who walked the earth in mortal form.

They're going to meet the Jaghuts. I was thinking it would be cool to meet an awkward teenage Hood! That would be pretty funny and cool. The lord of death an awkward adolescent, LOL.
(hide spoiler)]

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Chapter two was pretty awesome.

(view spoiler)[
I had no idea the stone mason was going to Caladan Brood. SE set that up well where you were suspecting a future enemy not Rake's ultimate ally. You still have to wonder if these blood oaths are going to have ill consequences.

Hish Tulla is an interesting character to bring the three brothers together. You have to wonder if Andarist breaks vows with her and causes strife with Enesdia and by extension her brother. Certainly Enesdia has some portentous comments with the red dress and the dead hills.

Funny that Osserc has a similar relationship to his father that his son had to him. I was wondering if he would have some redeeming qualities in this series, so far no go.

Some interesting quotes to this point regarding chaos which make me think they are all leading up to Dragnipur.


‘And if that killer writhes in the arms of Chaos for all eternity,’ Galak hissed, ‘it’ll only be what’s deserved.’

‘We shall arrive with steam rising from us,’ Silchas observed, laughing, ‘like children born of chaos.’


(hide spoiler)]

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Chapter 3

(view spoiler)[
Korya Delath is a myhbe? I wonder if this plays into Silverfox. I don't remember Haut or Korya from BotF. Maybe Bern? Although I would think she would already be in place as mother earth.

The lord of hate......the assumption is Jaghut but I wonder if this is going to be Kallor again with the message being that the names change (Napoleon, Hitler, Pol Pot...) but the tyrants never learn.

The boarderswords and hust legion obviously evolve into the people of the shore and Yon Tovis's people.

Orfantal and Sandalath.......wow I had completely forgotten that it was revealed in DoD that she was the mother of Orfantal and Korlat? Now who is Korlat's daddy? Draconus? Rake?....

PTSD with the Andii is pretty interesting since it was never a topic with them in BotF.
(hide spoiler)]

Has anybody else started?

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Chapter 4

(view spoiler)[
So many characters coming into their beginnings. Loved the T'riss walking out of chaos. I kept on thinking that was going to be Edgewalker since in BotF Vitr is in shadow not darkness. T'riss must be Azathanai and I loved that SE finally gave us a full definition of those who were not born.

I kept wondering if Finarra was hiding in the same crags as Leoman and Kiska. Spinnock being the young dashing promising warden was interesting.

Kagamandra Tulas......Tulas Shorn.......so we know it ends badly for him. Interesting that in BotF he again meets Silachas Ruin.

I really hope Edgewalker does get revealed in this series. I also hope Spite and Envy get more defined. Those are three characters who for me in BotF they never had an end purpose. Kiska and Leoman's trek into shadow really beyond some amusing Shadownthrone moments didn't either. I know Tayschrenn came out of that but then he never came back into the story either.
(hide spoiler)]

[Akinwale]

Scott wrote: "Chapter 3


..... Has anybody else started? "

Just read the prelude and had to do a little research on who the narrator is for proper context.

[Slow]

I am a day late.. but starting today.. will catchup soon

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Sweet. I more less expect to keep a fifty pages a day pace. Factoring in when chapters end it will be a little more or less.

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Ruthan Gudd who if you remember from the Bonehunters and later books was in the Malazan infantry however he had ancient magic and memories of crawling out of an Azath house. He also upon hearing Draconus had left Dragnipur said that the next time they met one of them would die. I at the time marked him as somebody to watch in the Kharkanas series.

My early prediction (view spoiler)[Arathan his bastard son. I wondered right away about this but now a little ways into chapter 5 I'm more than a little certain it's him. (hide spoiler)]

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Through chapter 8

(view spoiler)[
I'm wondering more and more who Korya is and then again whose matriarch she might be. Korya Delath and Ben Adaephon Delat. It's not like SE hasn't changed different names over the years of races and people. Dropping an H would be nothing.

Erastas and Setch are half brothers through Grizzin Farl. If that knowledge came up in BotF or Empire I missed it. I wonder if Bellurdan or Ereko are descended.

Thinking back to the Crippled God and Hood biting the head off of a Forkrul Assail I wonder if that played back to Setch having to do with his wife's murder. Also his setting up the land of the dead to defy death and grief.
(hide spoiler)]

[Slow]

i am almost done with Chapter 1 only .. going slower than my normal speed.. need to pick up the pace and catch up !

Already 2 interesting characters introduced, and a lot of open questions on who are the various people mentioned, and what are all those mysterious lands which even Andii are not aware of.

Also, how is Kurald Galain witnessing sunrise? isn't it Warren of Darkness? Shouldn't it be dark always?

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

It an interesting topic which SE talks about. How can their be light without darkness and vice versa. Therefore isn't their shadow? Just because the warren, and really it's a hold at this point and there's more to come on the warrens later in book which I don't want to spoil, doesn't mean it's only darkness.

[Slow]

awesome... thanks for the heads up.

Also, (view spoiler)[ for some reason, I never thought of Kurald Galain as a landmass where different characters like Draconus, Rake, etc built estates and lived. It looks logical now, that it is a warren and people can live here, and build structures. And not just a source of power. Feel slightly stupid as to why i didn't think of it earlier, inspite of warrens being described in detail in the books. (hide spoiler)]

I loved the Prelude too. In fact I enjoyed the style so much, I read it twice. Erikson is really good. In those few pages, there are hints to so many interesting stories. Can't wait for the rest of the book, and the whole series.

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

The prelude was excellent.

(view spoiler)[
If you think about Lether that warren/hold almost stuck in time with Kurald Emurlahn it's a land mass, and yet, shadow is everywhere and mages pop in and out of it. It's definitely a gray area where warrens have both physical and spiritual boundaries.
(hide spoiler)]

[Slow]

Scott wrote: "The prelude was excellent.


If you think about Lether that warren/hold almost stuck in time with Kurald Emurlahn it's a land mass, and yet, shadow is everywhere and mages pop in and out of it. It..."

true.. from now on (for the re-reads especially), (view spoiler)[ I will treat warrens as landmasses where 'talented' people can gain access to and derive power from. Though, in the Return of the Crimson Guard, an incidence happened which is not really explained by this understanding of warrens. I will not mention it here to avoid spoiling for those who have not read it, but it's something worth discussing. (hide spoiler)]

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

http://malazan.wikia.com/wiki/Warrens

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Chapter 9 was really good. There hasn't been enough Rake, Ruin and Andarist in this book for my liking but when they do show up it's awesome. Also T'riss has shined in this book so much more than she did in BotF or Empire IMO.

[Slow]

Scott wrote: "Chapter two was pretty awesome. ..."

Chapter 2 seems like a brilliant set up for the rest of the book.

As usual plenty of new characters introduced without letting reader know which one is more important or less. This is what i really admire about Eriksson's style.

(view spoiler)[ The reveal at the end was very memorable. Didn't see that coming.

A liked the dinner conversation between Kadaspala and Urusander, especially about the concept of law.

I still don't understand the character of Cryl, but being from Durav House is enough for me to keep an eye out for him.

We finally see the three brothers coming together - something which was hinted at in the main series, but none of the three ever talk to each other in those books. Also, it's good to see slightly normal sight of Rake where he gets surprised and shows false pride. (hide spoiler)]

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Cryl is another good candidate for Ruthan Gudd.

[Slow]

Scott wrote: "Cryl is another good candidate for Ruthan Gudd."
ah yes. good point !

[Slow]

Scott wrote: "Chapter 3

..."

(view spoiler)[
good point connecting Korya Delath to Silverfox's mhybe.. though she was a Rhivi, no? Korya is a Andii.

Isn't Lord of Hate a Jaghut, because if so, he can't be Kallor. I somehow thought of Gothos when reading about this Lord of Hate.
(hide spoiler)]

Story is progressing at a decent pace, without the usual jumping around between different scenes as we saw in the main series. Few philosophical moments but till now nothing feels burdensome.

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Mayank wrote: "Scott wrote: "Chapter 3..."

(view spoiler)[
Yes he's most likely a Jaghut and more than likely Raest from Darujhistan, IE Lorn, Tool, Paran and the new Azath house from BotF.

Yes Silverfox came from the Rhivi but in the Malazan world all races seem to have some connectivity, not unlike our own, so could it be Korya was the original Rhivi?

Some of my theories are definitely reaches and I only hit on half of them but I do nail some good ones. In the Crippled God when Paran and Shadownthrone made a bet I predicted on the spot Paran's price was Kalam's freedom as an example.

I've obviously put Korya as possibly the first Rhivi and possibly Quick Ben's ancient relative which would finally make sense as to why he was the high mage of high house Dark as revealed in BotF. I would easily go 0/2 on these predictions although I have a strong feeling I'm right about her being Quick's matriarch.
(hide spoiler)]

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Chapter 10

(view spoiler)[
That was an awesome visual and reveal of Burn. I had no idea that was going to be her. It's pretty interesting that we have the dog runners who are branched off from the Tiste.......I'm thinking they evolve into the Wickans? Clan Crow, Foolish Dog and Weasal.....or T'Lan Imass.
(hide spoiler)]

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Chapter 11, this is the first chapter where I really wish I had the Tor re-read as a reference for some of the things I have thoughts on.

(view spoiler)[
So Olar Ethil is the mother of Spite, Envy and Malice not Sheltatha Lore? Interesting.

When Arathan had the dreams of the dead babies it made me think of Capustan\Coral and I wondered if somehow his mother was Jaghut and Draconus was hiding his true nature as Olar Ethil had said and one of the Borderswords theorized. The Pannion Domin was a Jag and all of those fatherless children of the death seed. But then Olar Ethil cut off Raskan's head and stuff him in inside of her. Perhaps one having nothing to do with the other.

Olar Ethil burning....hard to feel empathy for her knowing how TGC turns out.

‘He has not yet decided on a name,’ Draconus added. ‘Which is a rather irritating affectation.’

This made me laugh. I couldn't figure out who the man with the globe was.

Halfway back, Old Man paused and looked back. ‘Oh, Draconus, I almost forgot. There is news.’

‘What news?’
‘The High King has built a ship.’

Arathan felt a sudden pressure, coming from his father, an invisible force that pushed him away, one step, and then another. He gagged, began to crumple— And then a hand pulled him close. ‘Sorry,’ Draconus said. ‘Careless of me.’

Half bent over, Arathan nodded, accepting the apology. Old Man had vanished within his strange house, taking the light with him. ‘I’m never good,’ said Draconus, ‘with displeasing news.’


OK this time I'm nearly positive it's Kallor but what is the ship? Is he trying to tame the Vitr?


(hide spoiler)]

[Slow]

Scott wrote: "Mayank wrote: "Scott wrote: "Chapter 3..."


Yes he's most likely a ..."

interesting.. it would be remarkable if that turns out to be the case... and so, i hope you are right :)

[Slow]

Scott wrote: "Chapter 4


So many characters ..."

This chapter was a bit slow, and felt Erikson went into too much detail than necessary. Things get repeated multiple times which is generally what i don't expect from this author. But still the story feels very interesting and enjoyable.

(view spoiler)[ Tulas Shorn ! that's it !
I was wondering why this Tulas name sounded familiar.

Osserc is shown in a very weak light, which is slightly surprising.

I wish we get to see what's happening in some other Houses too !
(hide spoiler)]

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Chapter 12

(view spoiler)[
Interesting finally getting some perspective on the Liosan. Father Light comes off pretty well at least in this chapter......Osserc not so much.
(hide spoiler)]

[Akinwale]

Chapter 5
Most characters in this book have been introspective so far. The writing style is still a lot like the malazan series but without the battles/action and humour.

(view spoiler)[Two people make me curious in this chapter. Sagander and Draconus. Will Sagander play a dominant role later on as the drama in Kharkanas unfolds due to his bitterness. Who exactly is Draconus? Grizzin Farl calling him friend and his quick dismissal when Arathan asked him about it hints at something deeper. (hide spoiler)]

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Akinwale wrote: "Chapter 5
Most characters in this book have been introspective so far. The writing style is still a lot like the malazan series but without the battles/action and humour."

I wouldn't say no humor but certainly there's no Tehol and Bugg or the Marines.

(view spoiler)[
Draconus was introduced as an elder god in BotF. I think it's going to come out that he's Azathanai.
(hide spoiler)]

[Slow]

Akinwale wrote: "Chapter 5
Most characters in this book have been introspective so far. The writing style is still a lot like the malazan series but without the battles/action and humour.


Yes, just finished chapter 5 and was thinking the story can do with some more humour. (view spoiler)[ My initial guess was that the Borderswords will have crazy conversations like the saboteur in Malazan army. But they are limited to mainly observations. (hide spoiler)]

[Slow]

Scott wrote: "Akinwale wrote: "Chapter 5

I would..."

(view spoiler)[ Draconus being a Azathanai.. hmm.. but then wouldn't his servants and others notice. He is constantly treated as an outsider, and Grizzin is his friend, but wasn't there a mention of his parents in the earlier chapters. And if he was born to them, he can't be Azathanai. (hide spoiler)]

[Akinwale]

Mayank wrote: "Scott wrote: "Akinwale wrote: "Chapter 5

I would..."

[spoilers removed]"

(view spoiler)[Yes and House Dracons seem well established so if true his parents too would have been Azathanai. (hide spoiler)]

[Akinwale]

Scott wrote: "Akinwale wrote: "Chapter 5
Most characters in this book have been introspective so far. The writing style is still a lot like the malazan series but without the battles/action and humour."

I would..."
(view spoiler)[At what point did he become an elder god? At this stage the Tiste Andii characters that are very powerful in there series are merely "normal individuals". (hide spoiler)]

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Memories of Ice Dramatis Personae

K’rul, an Elder God
Draconus, an Elder God
Sister of Cold Nights, an Elder Goddess

K’rul addressed the first Elder who had spoken in his mind. ‘Draconus, I too feel that death-cry. Such pain … indeed, more dreadful in its aspect than that of the Fallen One. If not a deception as our sister suggests, what has he done?’

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

It's a fair point about House Draconus being well established however his parents never being mentioned is a point for him being Azathanai. Also remember the Elient are ascendants so it's nothing for them to live hundreds of thousands of years.

Re-reading the MOI prologue is really interesting in light of this and Kallor is in fact the high king.

K’rul blinked, fixed his dark, heavy eyes on the High King. ‘For this crime, Kallor, we deliver appropriate punishment. Know this: you, Kallor Eiderann Tes’thesula, shall know mortal life unending. Mortal, in the ravages of age, in the pain of wounds and the anguish of despair. In dreams brought to ruin. In love withered. In the shadow of Death’s spectre, ever a threat to end what you will not relinquish.’

Draconus spoke, ‘Kallor Eiderann Tes’thesula, you shall never ascend.’

[Slow]

good point Scott. Though i wonder how you remember where to look for relevant references..

staying in the topic of Draconus, i loved the scenes in Chapter 6 on (view spoiler)[ father son 'bonding', and the palpable tension along with the awkwardness. It was really well done. (hide spoiler)]