Grammar help

[Alexis]

I've started cleaning up my first draft and I've run into some grammar issues.

Can someone help me understand when to use "which" and when to use "that".

I understand it a bit better now because of this article http://www.writersdigest.com/online-e... but still not fully.

I'd appreciate the help.

[Carole]

I have to see the sentence, Alexis. I never thought about it, but it changes the whole sentence. If you send specific sentences I can help you.

[Alexis]

Carole wrote: "I have to see the sentence, Alexis. I never thought about it, but it changes the whole sentence. If you send specific sentences I can help you."

I try to avoid using sentences that have to include that or which, but sometimes it's a must. Ok, I'll DM you!

[Carole]

Great!

[Erica]

Typically, you will use "that" if the information following the word is absolutely necessary for the sentence and without the phrase, the sentence would completely change meaning. "Which" is used if the information is additional but not necessary.

Ex: "My car that I have owned for a year has hail damage." -If I owned more than one car, I would use "that" in this sentence to specify which car. Without "I have owned for a year", it would change the meaning of the sentence since the reader wouldn't know to which car I am referring.

"My car, which I have owned for a year, has hail damage."-If I did not need to specify a specific car and am using "which I have owned for a year" as additional but not necessary information I would use "which".

[Erin]

This is a classic struggle for writers everywhere.

If this helps try to remember that we use which gives us extra information that is not crucial: "Romances, which have happy endings, make me smile." I used which because I'm merely adding a descriptor. It helps but doesn't actually contain my main point. Almost every romance has a happy ending so that info is almost parenthetical.

If I say: "Romances that have happy endings make me smile." ... Well now we have something different. I'm restricting my love to a specific type of romance - only those with happy endings. So romances with cliffhangers or happy for now scenarios do not make me happy.

Trick: Remember this..."You're such a little WHICH for giving me so much extra information."
And...
"THAT extra information helped me figure out what you meant!"

[Erica]

If it is crucial information, use "that". If it is a side note, use "which".

[Erica]

I like your tricks to remember how to use that vs which Erin!

[Justin]

I use "to which" alot. I have no idea why, maybe it's because it fits and I'm trying to be proper. I just feel at times I use it too much.

Without looking I'd suggest using "which" as I stated above because it sounds more proper and tends to set up for a better transition to the next word whereas "that" is like "thing" it doesn't seem all that defined.

[Alexis]

Thank you, ladies.

See, I look at these two sentences..
Romances, which have happy endings, make me smile.
Romances that have happy endings make me smile.

And I'm like: it's the same sentence! You're saying the same thing. I just can't grasp the difference and it frustrates me to no end.

[Erin]

Another trick...imagine you are making a desperate emergency call to the police or rescue squad and you have to give them your sentence in mere seconds to get help in time. What words or phrases could you leave out and it not make a difference to your getting help? That phrase should be preced by which.

e.g. "Come quickly! I live in the cabin, (that/which) has a rose bush in front, on Becker Lane!"
If it's the only cabin with rose bushes use that. If you just want people to know you're a good gardener use which.

[Alexis]

Erin wrote: "Another trick...imagine you are making a desperate emergency call to the police or rescue squad and you have to give them your sentence in mere seconds to get help in time. What words or phrases co..."


Fthtgjihfshj. I get it. I finally get it.


That was the example my brain was waiting for. Thank you!

[Erica]

Good example Erin! Glad it clicked Alexis. :)

[Alexis]

Erica wrote: "Good example Erin! Glad it clicked Alexis. :)"

Thanks Erica!

Okay, I have another question.

What is everyone's thoughts on using "And" or "But" at the beginning of a sentence?

[Alexis]

Alex wrote: "I was trying to think of a way to describe it to you, Alexis, unfortunately my brain froze and could only ask 'do I know the answer myself' I'm saddened to say it wasn't certain."

It's very difficult when there aren't concrete rules. Most native speakers tell you "Oh, I just know. It's instinctive." Yes, well, that doesn't help me, lol.

[Erica]

I think opinions on this topic vary depending on who your teachers were. As far as I understand, it is fine to start a sentence with "and", "but", or "or". I personally like the flow that these words can add to writing when used at the start of a sentence.

[Erica]

I was looking it up to make sure, and it seems that there was a generation of teachers who didn't like how much their students were using these conjunctions so they discouraged the use of these words at the begining of sentences. However, there seems to be a lot of agreement that these words are not breaking any rules at the start of sentences.

[Erin]

I use conjunctions at the beginning of a sentence if it is dialogue but agree with the others that although it is not advised there is some leeway for creativity.

[Erin]

Alexis wrote: "Erin wrote: "Another trick...imagine you are making a desperate emergency call to the police or rescue squad and you have to give them your sentence in mere seconds to get help in time. What words ..."

This post, which is supremely awesome, just made my day!!! ;)

[Alexis]

Thank you, everyone.

I will be hiring an editor, but I want to present him or her with as clean a manuscript as possible. ^_^

[Erin]

Erica wrote: "I like your tricks to remember how to use that vs which Erin!"

I'm a big fan of memory devices.

[Alexis]

Erin wrote: "Alexis wrote: "Erin wrote: "Another trick...imagine you are making a desperate emergency call to the police or rescue squad and you have to give them your sentence in mere seconds to get help in ti..."

Imagine what you did for MY day. I've been googling "which or that" since the day Al Gore invented the internet. :p

[Carole]

Erin wrote: "Another trick...imagine you are making a desperate emergency call to the police or rescue squad and you have to give them your sentence in mere seconds to get help in time. What words or phrases co..."

You are brilliant Erin.

Alexis, every editor I've worked with crosses out my but's and's, just's, and every's ALL the time.

[Erin]

Carole wrote: "Erin wrote: "Another trick...imagine you are making a desperate emergency call to the police or rescue squad and you have to give them your sentence in mere seconds to get help in time. What words ..."

Lol, thank you - it used to be such a struggle for me! Same with onboard and on board lol.

[Carole]

I learned more in the last five years than when I was in school. So the question is, is then or than???

[Erin]

Carole wrote: "I learned more in the last five years than when I was in school. So the question is, is then or than???"

"Than" sets up a comparison between two things.
"Then" refers to time or sequence.

Than
He is so much taller than his father.
I am hungrier than I thought.
* note: the word than is usually preceded by a word that ends in -er.

Then
Eat, then meet me after lunch.
I read the novel, then I wrote my review.

[Erica]

Lol. Then vs than one of the rules I find myself double checking from time to time.

[Roughseasinthemed]

@ Alexis

I grew up with the two rules. Never start a sentence with a conjunction, and, never end one with a preposition.

Imagine my horror as a trainee journalist when I was told to insert And or But at the beginning of a sentence!

Truth is though, used selectively, it works, especially for emphasis.

When I'm editing for clients I don't delete them, and have occasionally added them in narrative. It can help with the flow (as Erica said) as well as providing emphasis.

I do tire of grammar pedants. The most important thing is that the writing reads well, not that it would qualify with first class honours in English Grammar.

[Roughseasinthemed]

Absolutely Alex. We can all read style guides, whether Oxford, or Chicago for Americans, until it's coming out of our ears. Truth is your average reader, me included, doesn't give two hoots if you've got a comma splice or an incorrect semi colon if the story is good, well paced and interesting.

I think fixating over punctuation is seriously loopy. 'Ooooh, someone's put a comma in the wrong place.' I ask you. Wrong spelling, eg bare/bear, and missing/incorrect punctuation around dialogue do need correcting. Priorities, people.

[Erin]

I agree and disagree. Since I charge money for my work I am asking readers to except that I am a professional. The guy who fixes your bathroom plumbing and happens to be your neighbor cannot charge you what a professional would charge but you understand that there is a trade-off in service versus value. I'm asking a person to read my material when they could easily find a book from a traditionally published source. I see that as an honor and that gives me a responsibility. I don't think you have to prioritize because it is not either/or. As writers it is our job to get our thoughts and creativity down on paper. We should not be worried about grammar, with this I completely agree. But then it is our job to make sure that our drafts are properly edited.