Editors and Writers discussion
How to choose an editor
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Your post is very well written and certainly thought provoking, and while I do agree with most of what you said, I feel I must speak up on behalf of the "inexperienced" editors on GoodReads. Novice speaks nothing of skill and just because some people may be newer editors, it doesn't mean they are looking to use authors on GoodReads to get ahead in the industry. I turned to GoodReads when I started pursuing my lifelong dream of editing (and writing), and because of the wonderful people I have met on here, my career has flourished. Anyone that I have worked with can testify to my skill and to my devotion to the author. I am flexible with pricing because establishing my career and helping authors is what is important. I mean this in a respectful way, but it's unkind to bash those who seek to build their clientele through this site. You are doing the same, are you not?
I wish you the best and I am sure you will find a lot of business on here! There are some wonderful people to be met :).
Cheers!
I totally agree with Jaclyn. At the beginning, you said "First, don't start here." and then at the end, you asked people to contact you for help, So how can that be any different? Since I'm one of the "inexperienced" editors, I'd like to assure you that we are not fooling anybody, I offer free samples for the quality of my work, and the writer is free to hire me or not. And really, what's wrong with beginners?!
Good luck for you and every other "inexperienced" editor here. :)
Well stated, Jaclyn and Noran. As an experienced editor, I've made contact with the experienced and inexperienced, both writers and editors, through this discussion group. I just completed work with a published author I met here and I've also met some wonderful newbies.And we've had fun discussions. This group is for everyone.
Hi All, Thank you for replying, and don't worry, I could see your comments coming as I was writing.
First, Jaclyn: I in no way intended to say that newer editors are using Goodreads to get ahead in the industry, my apologies. What I did mean to say is that new editors will be learning their craft on an author's book. That's not a good thing unless they are working with another, more experienced, editor at their side mentoring them (as is the learning practice in traditional publishing houses). It's great to have writing and editing aspirations, but a copy of CMOS isn't enough when you're guiding an author who is also inexperienced.
Also, I agree, there are some great people on here and I'm meeting a lot of them, yourselves included!
Noran: Not to be cruel but you used an interrobang so it is clear you are inexperienced, which kind of illustrates my point. Please don't misunderstand me as I know this sounds as though I'm attacking, but I don't mean to be. There is absolutely nothing wrong with beginners. I just believe that inexperienced editors need to learn in situations where an author's hard work isn't at risk, and without taking money for unreliable work. That's just my opinion, and my business philosophy.
And I totally agree with you, offering samples is the best way for an author to see the difference in quality that they will get from someone with experience and someone without experience. I think you believing so strongly in samples shows how committed you are to an author's work and that's great. And yes, I "saw what I did there" in my post. ;-)
Jerry: Fantastic! I agree, this group should be for everyone! I just read a lot of posts saying 'hire me' and thought I would post something a little different. I'm super excited to see it getting so many comments so soon. Of course, nothing gets people talking like a little dose of opinion.
Thanks everyone!
-April
I appreciate your clarification! I am sure you meant no harm with your statements, but again just because someone is new at editing professionally, it doesn't mean they are not experienced. I have been writing and editing my entire life and only recently had the courage to pursue it. That speaks nothing of skill and I was confident in my ability long before my first professional job. Being new to the industry doesn't mean you are new to the craft.
Also, I have to include that it is rather concerning that your intent to "stir the pot" was a way of generating business. While your idea may be one of genius and it surely will earn you some attention , I see no integrity in that. Noran is passionate about what she does. I am also an author and I would choose someone like Noran or Jerry any day.
Hi Jaclyn, Thanks again for your comments, I love debating this stuff!
If you have been editing other people's work for years, that is experience, so I'm not sure why/how you differentiate "professionally editing"?
If you mean taking money for editing, that's not at all what I said. If you have been editing for years, then you are a professional editor when you decide to go freelance, so I'm a little confused by what you mean. Do you mean you were editing for years without any payment or instruction whatsoever? Sorry, can you explain? I'm missing something I think.
Also, you're putting quite a few words in my mouth, just to give me a passive aggressive dig, when you say I'm stirring the pot to get attention.
To clarify, Noran said, "At the beginning, you said 'First, don't start here.' and then at the end, you asked people to contact you for help, So how can that be any different?" I was acknowledging her pick-up on that, and explaining that I certainly wasn't going to stifle my opinion here (the opinion that writers looking for their first editor shouldn't limit their to looking on Goodreads) or fail to put that we do sample edits, just to avoid a little contradiction.
Thanks again,
April
April,You're not wrong in concept. The majority of first-time authors have no real concept of how the world of editing works. The majority of would-be editors are English majors and book enthusiasts who believe they could edit but don't really know. These things combined lead to a lot of wasted money and a mad scramble amongst new editors for whatever work they can get for substantially less than anything resembling minimum wage. I've contacted authors who have posted here to tell them the same.
That said, building up a client base when you're starting out is a very tricky thing, and while I think a lot of the authors who come here seeking editors probably do have better options, for others it could be just the thing, and the idea of scaring authors away from struggling editors does not fill one with optimism. The same applies to the idea that, say, Noran is a poor editor due to her use of an interrobang (genre-depending, a perfectly valid choice). I could just as easily say that you're not a strong editor due to your posts' absence of paragraph spacing. It would be absurd.
But I do take issue with this as a means of attaining clients, because, as you say, editing *is* about relationship-building, and that begins with honesty. Read Owl has been around for a year and a half, which is fine (I was certainly proud still to be kicking a year and a half in), but that's not a lot more experience than the editors here--which is probably the reason for the sample edits. (More established editors don't need to do sample edits, and they don't have the time for them anyway.)
Authors have a lot of options when it comes to editing, it's true. The ones who are tentative, and the ones not yet ready to make a major investment in their work, will do well with those enthusiastic editors just starting out. The ones who want knowledge and experience will make their way to editors like me. Scaring the rest doesn't help anyone. This town is big enough for all of us.
Sincerely,
Harrison Demchick
Developmental Editor, Ambitious Enterprises
www.ambitiousenterprises.com
Mod
Please let's share experiences and advice by all means, but for everyone's sake let's play nice.
Lin
Www.coinlea.co.uk
My goodness, Harrison, very well said! You deserve praise for your words. I suppose my initial frustration with this post lead to some inadequate articulation, but your thoughts are very similar to my own. It's clear to see that this editor, April, very much wants her topic to stand out among the rest and I can see that she is trying to offer valuable advice to the authors on GR. That's a valid point though, that with her company being a year and a half old, it's not quite as seasoned as many if the others and therefore some people could conclude she in inexperienced as well.
New editors indeed have a place in this industry. Everyone has to start somewhere! A post such as this could be discouraging to the new folks and sway authors from giving them a chance. New author and new editor combinations, in my experience, seem to be some of the strongest business relationships in this industry. This topic may also suggest that authors are not intelligent enough to tell the difference between a good editor and a poor editor. An author, even a new one, knows what they need. There are people who want to edit for the glory of the title and are hoping to make a quick buck. Then there are people, like myself and Noran (and the others that have posted on this topic, new editors or not), who are truly passionate about the craft and want to make a living this way. I ENJOY editing, and for people with the drive to work in this field, that passion shows.
If you look at my first topic within this group, I was one of those editors saying "hire me, hire me! I want to be an editor when I grow up!". You know what? I was given a chance but a wonderful new author who has chosen to continue working with me. Since then I have booked 11, yes ELEVEN, editing jobs from both new and experienced authors. And not all of them through GR. I have been accepting contracted editing jobs for only four months now. New I may be, but inexperienced I am not.
GR is an excellent place for people to meet, discuss common literary interests, and yes, even make business contacts. I only hope that my fellow "inexperienced" editors find the same success that I have. And I intend to help them in any way that I can! We should support one another, not compete.
Harrison your post is brilliant. I am an aspiring editor but I often stay away from the discussion boards because so far everyone seems pretty cutthroat. I hate that people feel the need to belittle the work of others to get some kind of edge over the competition, particularly when the varied experience of authors should coexist with the varied experience of editors quite peacefully. It's also intimidating to know that everyone who reads your posts will be scouring them for the smallest errors. I personally would love to learn everything there is to know about the job, but if the only people with that kind of information are the ones convincing clients not to give us the experience we need, then that's not particularly encouraging for this line of work, is it? No one starts life as a fully qualified, well-experienced editor, and I think the most successful people are usually the ones who remember where they themselves started.
I would love it if we could help each other a little more, so that together we can bring professionalism to the literary world, and perhaps help it regain the respect it deserves. It's too big a job for just one person.
I'm going to try and promote a little peaceful coexistence among veteran and novice editors.First, editors edit. Even against all the general rules of polite behavior, we correct each other. Admittedly, its rude, but if you look over the posts in this thread, you will notice that there is a higher than typical standard of written expression being applied by everyone. I've received business letters that weren't this carefully crafted. Editors take pride in their ability and can be downright ruthless or gleeful in finding mistakes, even on billboards. In my experience, however, editors are also touchy about their own errors, and calling them out rather stings. So, let's restrict ourselves to editing on request, and the world really will be a more pleasant and peaceful place.
Second, to the newbies, I know the OP seems to be an attempt to undercut your own ability to get work. I completely understand how you feel. I totally get all your arguments. Still, just so you can understand the other side, there are a lot of highly skilled, experienced editors in the freelance market right now all competing for work they used to do for salary. They are being paid less and taking on more of the expense to deliver work that used to be done in-house. The publishers they worked for imposed standards and expectations and provided extensive training. Editors were "new" until they were able to do a credible job without having their work shredded by another more experienced copy editor or a killer proofreader--and this could take a couple of years or more. So it is pretty hard to see newbies offering to work for bottom dollar or even free. It is simple economics--you are Amazon and we veterans are Duttons. However much we have to offer a client, in most cases, a cheaper price is more appealing than a fair price.
Finally, to the battle-scarred warhorses, we cannot shut out willing and enthusiastic new editors. There are some extremely talented up and comers who belong in this industry and should be encouraged and fostered, even if there are no in-house positions available in this rotten economy to help them along. In the context of Goodreads, the people who are most likely to find an editor here are indie novelists. If an author is looking for someone to tidy up the picky stuff and give some advice for not a lot of money, this might be the perfect place to find some help. For self-published authors or authors wanting to put a polish on a manuscript they will be shopping around, this may be a good and economical way to go. It is undoubtedly good practice for the novice editor as well.
Please, everybody, lets all agree on one thing. Authors who are looking for a greater level of expertise must be willing to pay for it. Newbies, never undermine your own futures by arguing that more experienced editors have nothing more to offer than you do. Someday, you will want to be paid fairly for the valuable service you provide, and leading clients to believe that you can do a top-flight copy edit for less than minimum wage will come back to bite you in the butt eventually. As long as it is clear to the client, however, that there is a certain amount of guinea pig in a below market rate edit, I think there can be a benefit to both sides. I have a much bigger problem with a full-price edit that doesn't deliver a full-price service.
What should clients expect for their money? Quite a lot, but that's fodder for a new thread. How does a newbie editor learn the trade? Also for a different thread. Freelancers must be exemplary at working without supervision, which means aggressive and continual self-educating. I have to get back to writing up a pro bono art show PR piece for good people (sometimes beefing up your karma is unavoidable), so I will only suggest that somebody start threads on specific skill building questions so that both authors and editors can glean some wisdom from the considerable brains in this group.
Mod
However, not long after starting this group I had a change of career focus and am now pursuing a photography career. Essentially, editing of a different nature (I also used to be a video editor which illustrates how an eye for detail can be useful in many different fields.)
As a result this group has always run itself, which I feel is somewhat of a shame because I initially had big dreams for it. I believe the boards could be ordered better and set up in a more useful fashion to bring the right levels of experience together. I'd also hoped that one day I could turn this group into a full-blown website offering a matching service for editors and authors.
As such, I would be very interested in passing the reigns of this group onto another interested party who can apply the passion for making it a success that I never fully realised.
If anyone is interested in growing this group and would like to initially co-moderate and eventually take over the group, please let me know.
Mod
I'm around most of the time and would be happy to help out with the moderation of the group. I have had experience moderating groups before as I used to run a few for the Open University learning system, among other places, and I always to try to ensure a positive and helpful atmosphere.
Mod
I've now added you as a moderator. Feel free to make any changes to the group that you feel are necessary.
Hi all, Sorry, I don't check GR very often.
Wow, for people claiming to be taking the high road and saying that I'm somehow putting others down, you are all pretty quick to post wrong assumptions about my experience to make yourselves look good.
Look guys, that's my advice to authors, and I'm going to stand by it now matter how much you try to argue with me and avoid my original point, which is that authors need to research editing services because an inexperienced editor is the worst thing that could happen to an inexperienced author. Sorry, I'm hard-headed, and you're not going to change my mind.
If you don't like it, maybe ask yourself why and post a reply with your opinion, but quit trying to call my credentials into question. Looking up my URL and telling people I have less than two years experience shows who the cutthroat really is. FYI... I have over eight years experience editing fiction and non fiction through traditional publishers, freelance work, and now Read Owl. Publishers with available mentors paid for my editing experience, not struggling self-publishing authors.
Calm down, breathe, and try to offer some advice or perspective instead of selling yourself.
Cheers, and good luck,
April
Mod
You've now seen for yourself how easy it can be to misjudge someone's experience - may I tactfully suggest that we all concern ourselves with our own work and experience, and help each other out rather than trying to score points?
At the end of the day, I'm sure that if an author had enough money to go to a top level editor and get a top-notch job, then the end result would be a high quality product, but how much of it would still be their own work?
The Indie writing business is fast-growing, and just as there are more and more authors and books, there are more editors, at all levels of ability. In the end, time will tell - I suspect that one or two will fall quickly by the wayside, most will muddle on and the top end will race ahead, just as in anything else.
The important thing for a writer is that they find someone they are comfortable to work with, they can afford to pay and who will work with them to improve their work. What we all want (I sincerely hope!) is to raise the standards in Indie publishing, while at the same time receiving suitable remuneration for our efforts - on both sides of the editing role. This can only be achieved by working to support each other, and by ensuring we behave professionally.
Mod
Seriously, we're mostly a pretty supportive bunch around here, so I don't anticipate much, but if there are any suggestions around organisation of threads etc I'm happy to take a look.
Hi Lin,Thank you, I agree completely. If a post can't be written with some opinion in it and posted without causing attacks, how on earth will strong and unique books be published?
Your comment about if it would still be their own work illustrates that point--that's not what an editor is supposed to do. An editor is supposed to help strengthen and clarify a writer's argument, not criticize and call their experience into question, or change their work.
I think I will politely leave this group to those who wish to do the latter, but I appreciate all the discussion and passion; thank you everyone.
-April
Of course, any author reading this group's posts should first be praised for recognizing that they need an editor. Even if an author doesn't plan to self-publish, a professional, polished, and persuasive new proposal or manuscript sent to a prospective literary agent or publisher will stand out.
So you know you need an editor, but where do you start? First, don't start here. Editors posting on this group are most likely to be inexperienced hobbyists trying to start a new career on the back of your book. An inexperienced editor is of no use to an inexperienced author.
Instead, do what every writer needs to do and read. Read some self-published titles in your genre and when you become impressed with the writing and polish of the words inside take a look at the copyright page. If no editor is listed on the copyright page, email the author directly. Almost all authors are happy to hear from a satisfied reader and will jump at the chance to talk shop.
Next, get sample edits done. Get as many sample edits as you can collect. Sample edits will not only show you what to expect, but will help you get a feel for the editor's editing style, which will help you choose an editor that fits your needs. Fifty per cent of editing is relationship building, so if you get the sense from a sample edit that you can trust this editor and like their suggestions, take the leap, make the investment, and hire them.
Now here's the bit of self-promotion from me: you can get more information about obtaining a sample edit from Read Owl at http://readowl.com/services/editing/ (down where it says "Not Sure?").
What you can also get from our website is a contact email; drop us a line and ask us any questions you might have about editing, we're also happy to talk shop.
Good luck, and congratulations on completing your book!
April Duffy
Executive Editor, Read Owl
april.duffy@ReadOwl.com