Goodreads Librarians Group discussion
Policies & Practices
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Updating Kindle page counts per Amazon's book page
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When the cover is still the same, I know we do update to match Amazon. So is this about when the cover is different? That seems to be what the linked thread was about.
Tal, you neglected to say that the cover was updated too. We do update page numbers if the cover is still the same - there is no question about that and I did the same in the specific case.The question is do we go back and update the page number of all the older editions when Amazon updates the page number or just the current one. There are cases with 4 of 5 older cover editions out there.
While it is true that the bot imports the wrong data a lot, it is equally true that authors also edit their books between cover changes, and they may upload a new text file to go along with their new cover. How are we to be certain which is the case in any given situation when amazon does not record these changes as Goodreads does?I can only suggest that only changing matching covers runs the least risk of making GR data more inaccurate, while changing older editions runs a high risk of removing information that is only available on GR.
Hopefully, we'll get some guidance on this. :)
David wrote: "Tal, you neglected to say that the cover was updated too." But not at the same time as Amazon updated the page count. The cover was swapped out just a few months after initial release but the page count wasn't updated on Amazon until nearly a year later. Again, a very frequent occurrence with Kindle editions since the print length is calculated not counted.
Melanie wrote: "When the cover is still the same, I know we do update to match Amazon. So is this about when the cover is different? That seems to be what the linked thread was about."
The cover was changed and a second GR edition minus the ASIN was created but the print length remained the same. So both the ASIN edition and the ACE (though it wasn't marked as an ACE which led to my request in the first place) both had the same page count - 282. About a year later a print edition was released and the Kindle edition print length was updated on Amazon. Then neither the ASIN edition or ACE edition page counts reflected the publisher's page count and initiated my request to correct.
Alex wrote: "While it is true that the bot imports the wrong data a lot, ..."Alex, it really boils down to the stated policy of the publisher being the authority for page count of a given ISBN/ASIN. It either is or it isn't.
Tal wrote: "it really boils down to the stated policy of the publisher being the authority for page count of a given ISBN/ASIN. It either is or it isn't. ."It is when all other data matches, including the cover. If everything matches, we can update the page count. But if the cover has changed, we can't know what the page count was before that change and therefore can't change the page count as it can't be verified.
Tal wrote: "Alex, it really boils down to the stated policy of the publisher being the authority for page count of a given ISBN/ASIN."This is the stated policy on ebook format page counts:
"Most ebook formats do not have a fixed number of pages since the pagination adjusts for screen size. If the publisher provides a specific page count, that number should be reflected in our book data. For PDF-specific editions, or any other fixed page ebooks, the normal paging rules may be used."
There is no mention that a publisher has authority over a given ASIN/ISBN. It could be argued that this is implied, as the paragraph preceding it places emphasis on the importance of matching the ISBN before correcting formats. In this case, however, the manual would be missing a significant caveat: when there is an ISBN/ASIN conflict, from the re-use of the same identifier for different books.
I think it is more correct to interpret this policy to be regarding the cases where the "publisher provides a specific page count [for the same edition as the record on GR]", particularly as the preceding paragraph states changes can be made "only if you have the exact book with a matching ISBN" (italics mine).
In this event, I would say that the action I suggested above is the logical extension of this policy. The moment a cover change occurs marks the split between publisher and GR. For the publisher, the updated version of their product becomes the only version. For GR, it becomes a different edition.
The publisher, therefore, is no longer referring to the edition on GR when they refer to their product, but to the latest incarnation of it, thus losing their authority (as far as GR records are concerned) in regards to the data of the earlier editions. In this situation, this authority, I would argue, passes to the amazon bot (in the case of amazon uploads), as it reflects the publisher's word at a time when they were indeed referring to the edition on GR.
Well, that's my $1.50 on the subject. In either case, a clarification of the manual would be great.
Alex wrote: "There is no mention that a publisher has authority over a given ASIN/ISBN. "I'm pretty sure I've seen Rivka post multiple times asserting that Amazon is in fact the authority for ASIN (Kindle) editions.
Alex wrote: "In either case, a clarification of the manual would be great."
Yes it would but it appears I'm going to have to contact support directly to make any progress in that direction.
An answer from rivka would be appreciated.
Mod
Actually, that most often happens because the author has indeed uploaded a new version of the book. While we might not add a new edition here (unless the cover was also changed), it is not clear to me that we should be updating Kindle page counts of existing editions based on such changes either.
rivka wrote: "Tal wrote: "The Kindle book itself didn't get updated, it's not a "new edition" but for one reason or another Amazon corrected the print length."Actually, that most often happens because the auth..."
In my experience it most often happens when the print version of the book is published and Amazon has to adjust/correct the print length of the Kindle edition to be more a accurate representation of the true length now that a print edition exists as the basis.
What you are referring to, the author uploading a new version of the book most often happens at the same time a cover change is made, which was not the case in this instance.
Both reasons may apply. The problem is, we can't tell if a new count if because of a new edition or some other reason. So the more prudent approach is that when we see a different page count on Amazon, we update the current edition, not all past editions. Just my 0.02 ₪.
David wrote: "..we update the current edition, not all past editions. Just my 0.02 ₪. "The record holding the ASIN is the "current edition" as far as Amazon is concerned. You are characterizing the ACE as the only current edition when in fact on GR they could both be considered current but on Amazon only one of them is, the one with the ASIN assigned. An ACE is a GR fabrication, a workaround for having multiple covers for the same exact edition. The existence of an ACE shouldn't negate the publisher being the final authority on page counts. What you are advocating is that if I own the ASIN edition with the two line title cover I'm stuck with an incorrect page count that then becomes useless for challenges since GR's page count doesn't reflect the publisher's stated print length for that identifier.
I understand that many GR staff and librarians have little Kindle publishing background but anyone who knows how fluid KENPC and print lengths are for Kindle editions because of the haggling back and forth between authors and Amazon over fair page counts due to the structure of payments for KDP Select would understand my reasoning. The only people who are in a position to know what the right page count is for any particular ASIN is Amazon, therefore GR should always defer to them on it, not worry about second guessing the much smaller chance of authors uploading entirely new editions of books using the same ASIN without any reference either in edition field, the description field or on the book title pages. Which btw, is the case most of the time since authors usually want to let people know the book has been updated/revised. At this point I honestly don't care what you decide anymore so carry on, I will find a solution on a different platform.
Tal wrote: "having multiple covers for the same exact edition"Same exact editions do not have multiple covers. The multiple covers make them not the same, let alone exactly the same.
lethe wrote: "Tal wrote: "having multiple covers for the same exact edition"Same exact editions do not have multiple covers. The multiple covers make them not the same, let alone exactly the same."
LOL, not on GR they don't no, because GR database schema can't do that, if it could there would be no need for ACE's. In the actual real world though same exact editions do have multiple covers and that's my freaking point! :P Like I said, do what you want, LT has the ability for multiple covers per ASIN so that will work nicely.
Not on my (real-life) bookshelves either. A MMP film tie-in edition is different from the original MMP cover (and usually gives a later printing, or printing date), even if they share the same ISBN.
ok one last reply, maybe it's a lost in translation issue but here goes:Any film tie-in edition is of course a wholly separate edition from an original printing. That has nothing to do with what I'm talking about here. I'm talking about identical books having different covers. Literally nothing about the book changed except the cover. GR cannot assign multiple covers to the same ASIN or ISBN so they invented what they call ACE editions, alternate cover is literally just that, an alternate cover of a specific edition.
Tal wrote: "Any film tie-in edition is of course a wholly separate edition from an original printing. That has nothing to do with what I'm talking about here. I'm talking about identical books having different covers."Why is that not the same as what you're talking about? This film tie-in edition differs from the original edition only by its cover. The ISBN is the same, the YoP is the same.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1... - original Picador edition (1977)
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/3... - film tie-in edition, also states 1977 as publication date in the book, plus "9 8 7", so 7th printing. But since Goodreads is against printings being mentioned, I looked up the date of the film's release (1985) and added that as pub date instead.
I bet that many of those MMP alternative cover editions mention different printings in the book, or maybe even different years of publication. Yet the ISBN stays the same.
A new cover is considered a big enough change that a new ISBN should be assigned, but unfortunately MMP publishers seldom do.
Another example:https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/3... (1977)
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2... (Reprinted 1981)
ISBN is the same.
A Kindle book gets published on Amazon listing a print length of 200 pages and the bot uploads the book to GR database with that information. At some point later, whether a few days, a few weeks or even a year, Amazon updates that Kindle book record to show print length as 300 pages. The Kindle book itself didn't get updated, it's not a "new edition" but for one reason or another Amazon corrected the print length. It still has the same ASIN and publish date as when it was added to GR by the bot. Do you update the page count to reflect the publisher's record (in this case Amazon) or say the original page count is inviolate because it was added by the bot.
Longer story: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...