Sleeping Giants - Whole Book Discussion, Spoilers Allowed (February 2017)

[Casceil]

This thread is for discussion of the entire book. There will be spoilers here. This seems to be a book people read or listen to as a chunk, so breaking the discussion into sections for discussion seems unnecessary.

The book contains some surprising reversals. Well, they surprised me anyway. What did you think about the end of part II, where Ryan attempts to kill Vince and Kara? Did Ryan's action seem out of character for him?

Did the other characters seem believable?

[Whitney]

There will indeed be spoilers in my following post.

I did enjoy the book, but I also thought it suffered from a bit of plotting laziness. I didn't buy Ryan attempting murder. I was thinking that it would turn out he had somehow been drugged and manipulated into it, but no, he just got drunk and went nuts because it was convenient to the plot to crush Vincent's legs and add some more YA level angst to the book.

I thought the characters were believable to a point, then they would veer off into teenage angst land again. I was also initially annoyed at how Mary Sue / Gary Stu perfect Kara and Vincent were, but then that was explained in a very cool way with the implication that they were descended from the original guardians of the robot.

Your question from the first thread about whether it was the same interviewer was interesting. I listened to the audiobook, and there it was obvious that it was the same person as he had a very distinct but unspecified accent and a very particular way of speaking. His arrogant personality was also apparent from the start in the audiobook. I enjoyed the scenes with Mr. Burns where we got to see the interrogator put back on his heels a bit in a situation where he wasn't the one in control.

[Casceil]

I didn't think of Kara and Vince as Mary Sue/Gary Stu at all. I realize there is considerable variation in how people use those terms, but I think of a Mary Sue as a kind of shallow, poorly developed character who can do pretty much anything, is pretty much perfect, and is kind of a wish fulfillment vehicle for the author. Kara and Vince were both very capable, but far from perfect, and I don't think being either of them would be anyone's fantasy. Both Kara and Vince seemed to have personalities that interfered with their ability to get along with others.

[Peter]

Whitney wrote: "I was also initially annoyed at how Mary Sue / Gary Stu perfect Kara and Vincent were"

I think you're misusing the term "Mary Sue" -- it doesn't mean just an incredibly competent character, but one who distorts the plot around him or her. See Seanan McGuire's description of what the term really means here.

Additionally, considering the secret government machinations going on, of course the people they are going to find are going to be highly competent. When you have that much power, you can get the best.

[Whitney]

Yes, the term in its full glory is a fan fiction term for a character who is just super good at everything and who all the characters love and admire. I was using it in a less exacting way, for sure. I was fine with Kara as an amazing pilot, that's why she was brought into the project, but then thought her marital arts prowess on the boat took it a little over the edge. And there's no compelling reason why the had to send her on that mission. You certainly could excuse Vincent's genius as the reason he was brought onto the project as well. I will add that the Mary Sue characters can have flaws, they usually consist of emotional immaturity embroiling them in some kind of love triangle, so that was part of my assessment.

My main point, though, was that I thought it was clever how Neuvel explained why these stereotypical hyper-competent characters were that way.

Speaking of the secret government machinations, that was another place I found the book to be a little lacking. Nearly endless resources and the best minds that could be found and the place was frequently run like a high school drama department. "I'm just going to wander over and chat with Kara, maybe put this helmet that's laying around on as a lark..."

[Casceil]

I still wonder where all the money was coming from for this project.

[Jane]

I was disappointed with this book - the plot and character development didn't live up to the potential of the premise in my opinion.

Character development: Kara is the best example of this here for me. I agree with Whitney that Kara's character was not believable. I hadn't heard your terms of Mary Sue etc before, but once I read more about them, I found myself in agreement. I also wanted some more nuance and exploration of her attraction and relationships with the two different men (can't remember names right now). Her character's tension in this area could have added depth. But it didn't.

Plot: what a great premise! And then really nothing happened. The story plodded along and missed opportunities for interesting vignettes as parts of the "giant" were discovered in all different parts of the world. Plus the book just went on too long.

Sorry to be so negative in my first discussion here!

[Amanda]

I really liked this. My only complaint was I thought Ryan trying to kill Vincent was out of character and then I thought it was a bit lazy/convenient that his legs were smashed and this enabled the backwards knees.

It's a book I really enjoyed while I was reading but I know there were some plot holes. I'll definitely read the second one. I found the ending to be the biggest surprise. Where has Rose been? Is it really Rose?
I'm guessing it is.

[Whitney]

Yes, good premise, and yes, the lazy / convenient thing was my biggest issue as well. I got the idea that Neuvel was really enthralled with Japanese giant robot movies but just wasn't able, or willing, to put in the work, to flesh out a solid plot. The aforementioned convenient crushing of Vincent's legs. The best minds working on the project and they couldn't find an engineer to build mechanical legs that translated forward motion into reverse motion, or even hook up a view screen on the other side of the control room. The 'reversible' knees are just medically stupid. And yet another love triangle for drama and character motivation.

[Casceil]

It was a good premise, and it did seem like the author could have done a lot more with it. I found Kara believable enough, but Ryan seemed to be more a plot device than a real character. By the last part of the book, everything seemed to me to be getting less believable. Earlier on, it made sense when the Greek geneticist's visa was revoked, because she seemed to be a disruptive force on the team. I did wonder whether the reason for ousting her was her failure to get along well with the others, distrust of her judgment, or alarm at the way she compared experiments with people to experiments with puppies. But it made no sense at all to me when she was brought back and put in charge of the project. There seems to have been some major shift in who was in control, but we were kept in the dark about the forces behind it.

I will be interested to see what happens in the next book. The author seems to have left open the possibility that the geneticist may have succeeded in combining Kara's eggs and Vince's sperm and gotten away with them.

[Peter]

Mysteries (not the genre, but the things) will keep me reading because I want to find our what's going on. It was, to me, one of the major pleasures of this book to see how the central mystery -- who built and then disassembled and hid this giant fighting machine, and why and how it worked. There's still a lot to find out, and I suspect it's enough to get my to buy the sequel come April 4th (or get it for my birthday).

I do admit some confusion about whether the builders of the giant were aliens, or the ancestors of humanity. Aliens wouldn't make much sense since they seem to be cross-fertile humans, which mean they basically are humans. But maybe there's a more complex explanation to come, like a common ancestor.

[Whitney]

I got the idea that the aliens were just aliens. The ones who were left here ended up breeding with humans, and only their descendants could operate the robots. I didn't think Neural was concerned enough with verisimilitude to bother with worrying about how that was possible, but maybe he will surprise me in the next books. Which I confess I will probably read a Wikipedia summary of.

[Marc]

Peter wrote: "Mysteries (not the genre, but the things) will keep me reading because I want to find our what's going on. It was, to me, one of the major pleasures of this book to see how the central mystery -- w..."

I thought this book did an amazing job of setting up that mystery and tension that also made me as a reader want to find out what was going on, but all that stellar setup fizzled pretty quickly for me after about the first 100 pgs or so. I also though Ryan's character was too two-dimensional and it seemed like Neuvel became more enamored with the witty dialogue than the actual plot.

Probably a pretty fine line for any author to straddle between giving up too much info and not giving up enough, but I thought the interviewer's mysterious role/background ended up giving him a little too much control over everything, almost like he himself was a deus ex machina. Anybody else feel this way?

My impression was that the builders of the giant were aliens who just happened to have some human-like forms (e.g., longer, reversed knees). I could easily be wrong here--that's just what I took away from it without going back for a closer read.

[Casceil]

Marc wrote: "Peter wrote: "Mysteries (not the genre, but the things) will keep me reading because I want to find our what's going on. It was, to me, one of the major pleasures of this book to see how the centra..."
" I thought the interviewer's mysterious role/background ended up giving him a little too much control over everything, almost like he himself was a deus ex machina. Anybody else feel this way?"

I was never sure just how much control the interviewer had. In the beginning he seemed to represent some agency or entity with a lot of control. After the disaster at the airport, he seemed to have much less control. I didn't think of him as a deus ex machina, but I did feel like there was someone or something behind him pulling the strings.

[Marc]

It was that fact that we readers were never really sure just how much control the interviewer had that made me feel a bit like he was a convenient plot device who could suddenly organize an international consortium, extract pieces or personnel from anywhere in the world, etc. Given how much of a to-be-continued we're left with, it seems like the type of series one might need to reflect upon once it's finished entirely.

Did you have any guess about what was behind him pulling those strings, Casceil?

I did enjoy the sense of humor in this book.

[LindaJ^]

This book was enjoyable in the way a Terminator movie is - won't win any major award but a box office hit.

[Whitney]

I found him a little too convenient as well, especially since the characters in the book would have had to have been given some idea of his credentials prior to just telling him everything, especially the NSA official. Still hoping sequels will prove me wrong, but Neuvel seems like a lazy writer when it comes to fleshing out or justifying anything that isn't part of the 'gee-whiz giant robot' center of the plot.

[Marc]

Your giant robot hatred is tangible, Whitney! I think I just cut myself on one of its edges :p

Now the Terminator plot, that was pretty cool.

[Whitney]

Not at all, I love giant robots! I grew up watching Ultraman, and have watched more episodes of Gundam, Evangelion, and Voltron (the newer one, natch) than an adult should admit to. But if you're going to write a novel with said giant robots at its center, you need to flesh out the background more than your standard anime series does.

Heck, I even enjoyed Pacific Rim!

[Peter]

One comment I read about the book in a review in Locus was that it seemed odd that none of the characters ever referenced the whole giant robot genre. It was like those books, TV shows and movies didn't exist in the setting. Maybe the author found the idea too meta!

[Whitney]

Good point, I think you're right. It's like how no one says "zombie" in The Walking Dead.

[Casceil]

Marc, I don't know who or what is behind the interviewer. I did wonder if somehow the aliens still have a hand in things.

[Whitney]

Casceil wrote: "Marc, I don't know who or what is behind the interviewer. I did wonder if somehow the aliens still have a hand in things."

I think it was made pretty clear that Mr. Burns was a descendent of the original aliens, and that the information he was offering about the aliens wasn't already known to the interviewer.

[Marc]

That's the impression I got, too re: Mr. Burns.

Now all this was to prepare for some sort of defense, yes? I had to return the book to the library but my memory is that there were multiple giant robots at one point and these were left behind for a coming battle but this was always described as a defensive position, yes, or did I misread that?

Does any of this relate to The Lost Book of Enki: Memoirs & Prophecies of an Extraterrestrial God? I must have read a suggestion linking these two books somewhere...

[LindaJ^]

I just finished the second book in the series -- Waking Gods. And in it you will learn who the mystery interviewer is and more about Mr. Burns. The audio book is amazing. My rather skimpy review, with no spoilers, is here -- https://www.goodreads.com/review/show....

[Caroline]

Ooo, thanks for the update Linda! I downloaded the audiobook a couple weeks ago but have been so far behind on reading and all my podcasts that I haven't gotten to it yet! I may start listening this weekend though now that I know I'll find out who the interviewer is. I really enjoyed the audio version for the first book, it was pretty fun.

[LindaJ^]

I finally got around to reading the final book in the trilogy -- Only Human. I was very disappointed and the more I thing about it, the more I think that a three star rating was too high. My short review -- https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...