The Riddle of the Labyrinth: The Quest to Crack an Ancient Code

[SRC Moderator, Moderator]

This is the discussion thread for the Spring 2017 Group Read The Riddle of the Labyrinth: The Quest to Crack an Ancient Code. Please post your comments here. This thread is not restricted to those choosing this book for task 20.10, feel free to join in the discussion. Warning- spoilers ahead!

The requirement for task 20.10: You must participate in the book's discussion thread below with at least one post about the contents of the book or your reaction to the book after you have read the book.

[Shree]

Even if mentioned in first post **probably spoilers ahead**


I will fully admit, this book grabbed me and I really could not put it down until the end; however, the only thing keeping me going to the end was the mystery of language.

The author details the lives of 3 individuals as they discover, study and eventually decipher an ancient language. Her writing is engaging if not a bit romantic. She must have really loved her subject matter considering some of the flowery language. Her technical analysis was also easy to follow, and if anything, I thought was more interesting than the actual people. This could also be because how stymied Alice Kober was in this story and I couldn't help feel for her. No doubt Kober's, Even's, and Ventris' lives influenced their work but it honestly held no interest for me, especially the men. If only I could reach through the book and give them a good strangle.....

Unsurprisingly, I enjoyed the last chapter and the epilogue the most. I could feel the excitement when the decoding was coming together. The recount on the lives in the cities was fascinating if only because humans love paperwork, no matter how long ago it was. Archaeologists must have a special love for bureaucracy and taxes.

4* for me.

**As much as the author tries to temper it, the books has a slight feminist tint, and I can definitely appreciate it.

[Dlmrose, Moderator Emeritus]

I've had this book on my TBR since 2013 and I'm so glad that this task pushed it to the top of the pile. As Shree mentioned above, it was (surprisingly) a page-turner I didn't want to put down. I appreciated the use of the Dancing Men to illustrate some of the concepts. I thought Margalit Fox did a great job of making scholarly analysis accessible throughout the book.

[Lavender]

I love puzzles. I love stories about smart women. I loved everything about this book. I am happy that someone told the story of Alice, showing her contribution to the puzzle, but without taking away from the accomplishments of others.

If not for the group read challenge, I may never have gotten around to reading this book, so I'm glad it pushed me to do so and that my library had an available copy.

5*

[Sandy, Moderator Emeritus]

I read this choice, because I didn't want to re-read either of the other choices. Although this was not a book I was particularly interested in, I did find it interesting. I have always liked doing logic problems, and much of Kober's work reminded me of that - I couldn't resist looking at the diagrams and trying to work through some of it.

And, I particularly enjoyed the last chapter, seeing how the economic records told so much about the civilization.

[Marcene]

I enjoyed this book. What’s not to like – linguistics and cryptography? Interesting stuff. I marveled at the lengths Alice Kober went in her task of deciphering Linear B, from learning many languages to a database on slips of paper. What would she have been able to do with a even simple database on today’s computers? I think the solution would still require the human intuitive leap or at least hunch. And of course, the first to publish, Michael Ventris, gets the credit. That is no different today. Those who publish first, always stand on the shoulders of others. Read the book, it’s good.

[Diana]

This was an interesting read. I find both language and archeology fascinating and it was incredible to read how much effort on the part of three different people went into decoding these characters. Can you imagine devoting most of your working life into arranging and rearranging and trying to make sense of these symbols? I admire their dedication and perseverance. I'm glad this book recognizes the work of Alice Kober since she had not received the credit she was do before.

[Dee]

I'm about 3 chapters into this so far - finding it an easy/enjoyable read

[Deborah]

I enjoyed reading about the complexities that go into trying to understand an unknown language. Kober had a well organized mind and was a stickler for details, to the point where I wanted to smack both Myres and Kober. She should have let that relationship go and focused on her study of the tablets. Myres took great advantage of that relationship.

I'm glad this was chosen as a group read and having gotten to learn about the history of languages and all the people it took to decipher Linear B.

[Sandy, Moderator Emeritus]

Deborah wrote: "She should have let that relationship go and focused on her study of the tablets. Myres took great advantage of that relationship.
..."

One of the things that seriously annoyed me was the way she was treated as a glorified secretary, especially by Myres. How much time and effort she spent on this, instead of on the actual work she was doing. Sadly, I think this is a reflection of how women were treated, and probably one of the reasons that women's contributions were so often overlooked.

[Andy]

I read this book for a long ago challenge but what I remember most about it was the dedication that Kober had for this task to the point of using scraps of paper to record data because paper was in such scarce supply.

[Dee]

I found the comparison of Ventris filling in his grid to that of doing a Soduku puzzle to be a great analogy

[Cindie]

I enjoyed this book, not so much the puzzle solving aspect but like many others, the final chapter was my favorite. The bureaucratic lists of animals, textiles and grains really did relay much information about the Mycenaen society. The saddest sentences were those that said we will never know more about them than we do right now. I will say that many of the decipherers and supporters seemed cursed: Kobler, Daniel and Ventris all died sad and early deaths.

[Melanie]

Sandy wrote: "One of the things that seriously annoyed me was the way she was treated as a glorified secretary, especially by Myres. How much time and effort she spent on this, instead of on the actual work she was doing."

SO TRUE! I really enjoyed reading about the whole thing, the puzzle and the way various preconceived notions (it's not Etruscan!) can stymie progress and the pre-computer-era attempts to consolidate knowledge and how much it helped to have people from different fields approach deciphering from the different angles their disciplines taught them.

But I'm saddened when I read stories like this, or Hidden Figures: The Untold True Story of Four African-American Women Who Helped Launch Our Nation into Space. It's super, of course, to hear about the accomplishments of extraordinary women, but my family is full of women who *wanted* to accomplish more, academically and professionally, but the mores of the time constrained them.

Even with everything Kobler had to offer, her vast accomplishments and acknowledged skills, she couldn't get that university position. Any man with her C.V. would have made double her salary from Brooklyn, and been keynote at symposiums worldwide. And she just kept working away, ignoring her increasing ill health and the work she wanted to do herself, to Support A Great Man who swatted away as inconsequential her requests for accreditation.

I'm happy to have found this book, but my fresh outrage over 60 year old injustices will take a while to subside.

[Peg]

I enjoyed this read much more than I anticipated. The time and devotion that is put in to solving these life mysteries for really so few to appreciate I think is what always draws me.

It was the little things within the story, the lack of paper, the heavy workload yet she still took on more, not driving and caring for her mother that was sprinkled throughout. How spoiled we are today with our comforts. It shows that no matter what obstacles or treatment you receive, if your passion is strong you will persevere.

[Trish]

I love a good puzzle, and I'm fascinated by ancient history and mythology, and this had a good dollop of both. All three of the people the authors focused on were fascinating in their own way, and I find myself in awe of the patience which Kober and Ventris took to crack Linear B. I also find myself agreeing with the author's view that Kober could have finally succeeded if she'd just had the time.

The writing style reminded me a lot of Longitude, but I guess as that was one of the earlier micro-histories, and probably the first I read, I guess I'll always have that in the back of my mind when I read that kind of book.

Well worth reading.

[Nicola]

Books like this make me want to read more non-fiction. Though i may be biased in this case as a statistician.
Whilst the life stories of all three people was interesting, it was the discussion of the decoding and thought processes that intrigued me the most. I really like how Margalit Fox gave examples from known languages to help the reader put it into context.
I wonder if any one did "try writing your name in a block of Plasticine with a straight pin taped to a stick" :)

I identified with many of Kober's frustrations. Even some 60 years later there are many senior academics that still treat everything as needing to be secretive and none collaborative. There are even many that still treat their juniors, especially women, as admin rather than fellow academics.

The bit about Ventris sticking to his thoughts about Etruscan no matter what also made me chuckle as i've seen this happen a lot too- where someone has preconceived ideas and sticks to them no matter the evidence.

[Alycia]

I wound up enjoying this in a different way than I thought that I would. Based on the introduction, I'd expected to find it to be mostly about Alice Kober, with significantly less info on Evans and Ventris. I wound up with a much better picture of how the work was actually done.

Some random thoughts/observations:
Had to chuckle at the description of qualifications for a world-class archaeologist: "tirelessness, fearlessness, boundless curiosity, wealth, and myopia"

I found myself being annoyed for Kober dealing with being a woman in a male-dominated field. From being treated like a secretary by Myres to being passed over by Penn, to being referred to by Ventris as "Miss Kober" rather than by her title, she obviously was dealing with some social baggage that a man would not have been.

As a computer geek, I found Kober's technique for putting together a paper database fascinating. Having designed and built databases, I can see just how much having one would have helped her.

I would kill for handwriting as neat as Michael Ventris'. Sadly, mine looks more like Myres'.

[Sandy, Moderator Emeritus]

Alycia wrote: "As a computer geek, I found Kober's technique for putting together a paper database fascinating. Having designed and built databases, I can see just how much having one would have helped her.
..."

You know, I'm no computer geek, but I kept thinking the same thing - just imagine what she could have done with a computer!

[Andy]

Alycia wrote: "I wound up enjoying this in a different way than I thought that I would. Based on the introduction, I'd expected to find it to be mostly about Alice Kober, with significantly less info on Evans and..."

I think if Kober had been born several decades later she would have dealt with her situation much differently. I have several teacher friends now retired who started working as teacher in the early 70's and they were asked if they planned to get married soon with the implied as soon as you have children you will retire, so we are not sure we will hire you. Much change has occurred as to women's place inn the workplace.

[Amy]

This book has been on my to-read list for a few years now, so I welcomed the incentive to get it read. I was fascinated by the subject matter of the book from the first time I heard of it, and this book was as good as I hoped it would be. It was surprisingly readable, partly because it focused a lot on the people who worked on the Linear B puzzle. But also, I find codebreaking interesting in and of itself. I loved learning about Alice Kober's brilliant work. Her handmade punch card database was astonishing! I am so proud that my alma mater, the University of Texas at Austin, has been instrumental in preserving Kober's papers. What an amazing piece of history.

[Shanna_redwind]

Very interesting story. I ended up reading this because I started Jonathon Strange and just couldn't get into it, and I couldn't see reading 1000 pages of book I wasn't enjoying.

This book I enjoyed a surprising amount, though it was completely outside of my usual reading. I enjoy archaeological thrillers, and I expect to notice references to Linear B show up in my reading, as so often happens to me when I learn a new word, or gain new knowledge.

[Lauren]

Reading this book was interesting for me mainly due to the fact that it resonates with two very different modules that I teach at my local college - Cryptography (Software Engineering) as well as Myths and Legends (General Studies).

In the M&L course, my students learn about the discovery of the Palace of Knossos and its connection to the myth of Atlantis while in the cryptography module they learn all about the various methods of encrypting and decrypting hidden messages and codes from steganography to the Caesar cipher to public-key encryption.

Both of these interests came together in this book for me and it was fascinating.

[Dee]

Lauren - I'm soo jealous of those courses! I wish I had taken a mythology course or something like that

[Lauren]

Dee wrote: "Lauren - I'm soo jealous of those courses! I wish I had taken a mythology course or something like that"

I love teaching it Dee and the students have a blast. They send me stuff they see in the news even after the course is over :0)

[Dee]

The sign of a great educator ;)

[Lauren]

Dee wrote: "The sign of a great educator ;)"

Aww.. thanks. I try, lol!

[Dee]

I still have high school teachers I stay in touch with because they made that kind of impact :)

[Lauren]

Dee wrote: "I still have high school teachers I stay in touch with because they made that kind of impact :)"

Me too. It's one of the best aspects of teaching.

[Sarah]

I loved this book, and I'm so glad it was chosen as a group read as I'd never even heard of it before.

I can only admire the skill of the author in making the subject so compelling. I thought I'd be interested anyway as the topics appeal to me, but to have the pull of a page-turner as well was wonderful.

[Coralie]

I haven't yet read the Ventris section but feel I should comment today in case I run out of time when I finish.

I am not much of a non-fiction reader but I thought the subject matter of this book looked interesting. I am enjoying the discussions on language and cryptography more than the biographical parts (I pretty much gave up reading biographies fifty years ago).

The author obviously really admires Kober but I did laugh when she claimed that not many women would read detective fiction whilst also knitting as I was both knitting and reading for a large part of the book, as I do with any book that will stay open by itself. I suspect that it was quite common back in the 1940's to do both together.

[Coralie]

The thing that I am having difficulty getting over in the third section is the idea that you shouldn't touch a two year old for fear of giving him a complex! Poor little boy.

[Dee]

Coralie - I was just reading that in another book (Homo Deus: A Brief History of Tomorrow) and it talks about how the method for child raising has changed over time - but that in the 30/40's - a child didn't need care/affection, they just needed food/water and how that changed in the 60/70s

[Andy]

Dee wrote: "Coralie - I was just reading that in another book (Homo Deus: A Brief History of Tomorrow) and it talks about how the method for child raising has changed over time - but that in th..."

I think this book could be read for its elucidation of how women were treated in the workplace versus their male colleagues as well as attitudes toward child rearing although that is certainly not the author's primary intent.

[Kristen]

This book was a bit different than what I was expecting, but it was still interesting on some levels. I certainly learned something about an aspect of history that I wasn't familiar with. However, I was expecting more of what was in the epilogue instead of a book about cracking the code. If I had paid attention to the synopsis, I would have known better :)

While I find language interesting, I got lost in a lot of the sections about the methods they used to decipher Linear B. I found the historical and sociological contexts far more interesting, such as the attitudes toward an American female as a scholar, the relationships between the various scholars, or how Ventriss was raised by Jungian parents.

I listened to the audiobook version of this, so that might have led to me not being able to focus completely on some of the sections that gave so much detail on linguistics and how the code was cracked. I'm not sure that I would have had an easier time reading these sections though. That part of this book (which is a lot of the book) just didn't appeal to me.

I ended up giving it 2 stars. I didn't hate it, but can't say that I loved it either.

[Dee]

Andy wrote: "Dee wrote: "Coralie - I was just reading that in another book (Homo Deus: A Brief History of Tomorrow) and it talks about how the method for child raising has changed over time - bu..."

which really hasn't changed in the time period since then...first word out of most peoples mouth at a new job - are you married? do you have kids? going to have kids?