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Sonnets > #66 Tired with all these, for restful death I cry

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message 1: by Martin (last edited Feb 16, 2017 09:01AM) (new)

Martin | 0 comments Sonnet 66

Tired with all these, for restful death I cry:
As to behold desert a beggar born,
And needy nothing trimmed in jollity,
And purest faith unhappily forsworn,
And gilded honour shamefully misplaced,
And maiden virtue rudely strumpeted,
And right perfection wrongfully disgraced,
And strength by limping sway disabled,
And art made tongue-tied by authority,
And folly (doctor-like) controlling skill,
And simple truth miscalled simplicity,
And captive good attending captain ill.
Tired with all these, from these would I be gone,
Save that to die I leave my love alone.


message 2: by Jonathan (new)

Jonathan Moran | 161 comments Oh, wow, Martin, not sure if you were just looking for a real tough one to spring on us. I may have to cheat and look at Shmoop! for some ideas on this one.


message 3: by Jonathan (new)

Jonathan Moran | 161 comments I'm not sure whether to classify the speaker's list as dichotomies or paradoxes, perhaps a little of both. But, it is clear, this list makes him cry for "restful death" (1). The twist comes in the last two lines again. He is tired enough with these paradoxes, if you will, that he would like to go on to that restful death, except that would mean leaving his "love", the person he loves, alone in this world. Now... I suppose I will look at some of his "problems".


message 4: by Jonathan (new)

Jonathan Moran | 161 comments Forgive me, but I read No Fear Shakespeare's rendering and I am afraid I disagree with a couple of their interpretive lines.

Clearly, the general idea is that this list of paradoxes is what is wrong with the world. He begins:

As, to behold desert a beggar born,

No Fear renders this:

Deserving people destined to be beggars

If I substitute in the gloss from my Norton, I get:

For example, to behold merit a beggar born,

Is this S just using inversion?

For example, a beggar [is] born to behold (to look upon) merit,


message 5: by Jonathan (last edited Feb 14, 2017 10:43AM) (new)

Jonathan Moran | 161 comments With a little help from Shakespeare's Sonnets, I think I've got the first problem:

desert = a deserving person, a worthwhile person.
a beggar born = born into poverty.

I think the first thing the speaker says is wrong with the world is that a person with merit, a person deserving of good, is born into poverty.

That's what I think it means, but I think there are a number of implications of this. This deserving person will never reach the amount of material wealth he or she deserves. Their works, or their genius, will never be appreciated. There is a proverb which says, "A poor man's words are never heard and his wisdom is despised." I think the speaker is dealing with a similar problem in his first paradox.


message 6: by Martin (last edited Feb 14, 2017 01:24AM) (new)

Martin | 0 comments Hi Jonathan, you must be up very late by the CST clock. I have just corrected a horrid error in the text above, where "gilded" appeared as "guilded". You can see the error in place here http://www.opensourceshakespeare.org/...

I won't trust "open source shakespeare" so much in the future!

I think I'll leave any comments of my own until someone has made the inevitable connection with one of the poet's best known dramatic soliloquies.

;-)


message 7: by DavidE (new)

DavidE (shaxton) | 358 comments Jonathan wrote: "With a little help from Shakespeare's Sonnets, I think I've got the first problem:

desert = a deserving person, a worthwhile person.
a beggar born = born into poverty.

I think the first thing t..."


I've long taken the line to mean something like "as to behold the deserving not get what they deserve."


message 8: by DavidE (new)

DavidE (shaxton) | 358 comments Once again I find that reading the sonnet out of context has made me appreciate it more. I've always liked this particular sonnet, but it strikes me as even more powerful now that we are focusing on it alone.

Some of the lines have long resonated for me ("And art made tongue-tied by authority" and "And simple truth miscalled simplicity").

But a closer read reveals lines that are rather baffling to me.

"And strength by limping sway disabled"

or

"And captive good attending captain ill."

Anyone care to elucidate those lines? Jonathan? Martin?


message 9: by DavidE (new)

DavidE (shaxton) | 358 comments Here's the original spelling of the sonnet, should anyone find it useful.

TYr'd with all theſe for reſtfull death I cry,
As to behold deſert a begger borne,
And needie Nothing trimd in iollitie,
And pureſt faith vnhappily forſworne,
And gilded honor ſhamefully miplaſt,
And maiden vertue rudely ſtrumpeted,
And right perfection wrongfully diſgrac'd,
And ſtrength by limping ſway diſabled,
And arte made tung-tide by authoritie,
And Folly (Doctor-like) controuling skill,
And ſimple-Truth miſcalde Simplicitie,
And captiue-good attending Captaine ill.
Tyr'd with all theſe,from theſe would I be gone;
Saue that to dye,I leaue my loue alone.


message 10: by Janice (JG) (new)

Janice (JG) I was immediately reminded of:

Darkness at the break of noon
Shadows even the silver spoon
The handmade blade, the child's balloon
Eclipses both the sun and moon
To understand you know too soon
There is no sense in trying

Pointed threats, they bluff with scorn
Suicide remarks are torn
From the fool's gold mouthpiece
The hollow horn plays wasted words
Proves to warn that he not busy being born
Is busy dying.

Temptation's page flies out the door
You follow, find yourself at war
Watch waterfalls of pity roar
You feel to moan but unlike before
You discover that you'd just be
One more person crying

So don't fear if you hear
A foreign sound to your ear
It's alright, Ma, I'm only sighing

As some warn victory, some downfall
Private reasons great or small
Can be seen in the eyes of those that call
To make all that should be killed to crawl
While others say don't hate nothing at all
Except hatred.

Disillusioned words like bullets bark
As human gods aim for their mark
Made everything from toy guns that spark
To flesh-colored Christs that glow in the dark
It's easy to see without looking too far
That not much is really sacred.

While preachers preach of evil fates
Teachers teach that knowledge waits
Can lead to hundred-dollar plates
Goodness hides behind its gates
But even the president of the United States
Sometimes must have to stand naked

An' though the rules of the road have been lodged
It's only people's games that you got to dodge
And it's alright, Ma, I can make it

Advertising signs that con you
Into thinking you're the one
That can do what's never been done
That can win what's never been won
Meantime life outside goes on
All around you.

You lose yourself, you reappear
You suddenly find you got nothing to fear
Alone you stand with nobody near
When a trembling distant voice, unclear
Startles your sleeping ears to hear
That somebody thinks they really found you

A question in your nerves is lit
Yet you know there is no answer fit to satisfy
Insure you not to quit
To keep it in your mind and not fergit
That it is not he or she or them or it
That you belong to

Although the masters make the rules
For the wise men and the fools
I got nothing, Ma, to live up to

For them that must obey authority
That they do not respect in any degree
Who despise their jobs, their destinies
Speak jealously of them that are free
Do what they do just to be nothing more than something they invest in

While some on principles baptized
To strict party platform ties
Social clubs in drag disguise
Outsiders they can freely criticize
Tell nothing except who to idolize
And then say God bless him.

While one who sings with his tongue on fire
Gargles in the rat race choir
Bent out of shape from society's pliers
Cares not to come up any higher
But rather get you down in the hole that he's in

But I mean no harm nor put fault
On anyone that lives in a vault
But it's alright, Ma, if I can't please him

Old lady judges watch people in pairs
Limited in sex, they dare
To push fake morals, insult and stare
While money doesn't talk, it swears
Obscenity, who really cares
Propaganda, all is phony

While them that defend what they cannot see
With a killer's pride, security
It blows the minds most bitterly
For them that think death's honesty
Won't fall upon them naturally
Life sometimes must get lonely

My eyes collide head-on with stuffed graveyards
False gods, I scuff
At pettiness which plays so rough
Walk upside-down inside handcuffs
Kick my legs to crash it off
Say okay, I have had enough
What else can you show me

And if my thought-dreams could be seen
They'd probably put my head in a guillotine
But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only

- Bob Dylan, It's Alright Ma


message 11: by Jonathan (new)

Jonathan Moran | 161 comments David wrote: "And captive good attending captain ill."

S is not clear about what capacity this is in, but it seems that one of this world's ills is when "a good person is enslaved by and must minister to an evil person who is his superior." The word "captain" does invite us to think about the military. But, since S loved word-play he may have been using "captive" to compare/contrast with "captive". He even could have been referring to more powerful countries taking good people from another country into servitude. In any case, I am satisfied with good slave, evil master.


message 12: by Gabriel (new)

Gabriel | 196 comments Thanks for the explanations of 'As to behold deſert a begger borne'. I had taken 'desert' to mean 'deserted', hence 'to behold a borne beggar deserted' (like the 'poor naked wretches' that King Lear suddenly realises he has ignored all his life). But I think your explanations (Jonathan, David...) are probably better. On another line, I think 'strength by limping sway disabled' means someone with natural strength of character dominated by a weak character in a ruling position'. ('Sway' means rule here and there in the plays).

And needie Nothing trimd in iollitie,
And pureſt faith vnhappily forſworne,
And gilded honor ſhamefully miplaſt,
And maiden vertue rudely ſtrumpeted,
And right perfection wrongfully diſgrac'd,
And ſtrength by limping ſway diſabled,
And arte made tung-tide by authoritie,
And Folly (Doctor-like) controuling skill,
And ſimple-Truth miſcalde Simplicitie,
And captiue-good attending Captaine ill.
Tyr'd with all theſe,from theſe would I be gone;
Saue that to dye,I leaue my loue alone.


message 13: by Gabriel (new)

Gabriel | 196 comments Sorry - pasted in the rest of the sonnet by accident!


message 14: by DavidE (new)

DavidE (shaxton) | 358 comments Gabriel wrote: "I think 'strength by limping sway disabled' means someone with natural strength of character dominated by a weak character in a ruling position'"

I think you've nailed it, Gabriel.


message 15: by DavidE (new)

DavidE (shaxton) | 358 comments Jonathan wrote: "it seems that one of this world's ills is when "a good person is enslaved by and must minister to an evil person who is his superior."."

Yes, I think you're right--and the line might well have larger implications. I wonder if there's any evidence that Shakespeare was aware of the slave trade in the New World, if indeed it had begun in earnest when he wrote this sonnet. Captive good attending captain ill, indeed.


message 16: by Jonathan (new)

Jonathan Moran | 161 comments David wrote: "I wonder if there's any evidence that Shakespeare was aware of the slave trade in the New World, if indeed it had begun in earnest when he wrote this sonnet."

The slave trade as America knew it definitely had not begun. This is probably an indictment on Imperialism. My Shakespeare professor interpreted The Tempest in this way. Still not sure if I buy that one, but there is some type of slavery which S is addressing here, even if it is just the Master/Servant relationship prevalent in England for many centuries.


message 17: by Stephen (new)

Stephen (havan) | 15 comments I want to think about this one some more but my first reaction was to think of Noel Coward and his song "World Weary."


message 18: by Candy (last edited Feb 16, 2017 09:18AM) (new)

Candy | 2806 comments Mod
The anger and overwhelming feeling that is portrayed in this sonnet....seems only to be matched by the resoluteness of Hamlet's famous let of burdens.

The word "desert" really stood out to be ...because it triggered the sense of opposite to the green world. As another military motif....rulers and military hiding in here...

this sonnet cries out for a rebirth of the culture. The culture and system is wrong. In the words of activists and Bernie Sanders followers...."the system is rigged"

This is the same system of economics and oppression in the rotten Denmark. The kingdom must fall and fall and have a rebirth. This sonnet cries for restoration of the world.This seems to me brilliant precisely because Shakspeare is also calling out the Master of Revels and censorship....And art made tongue-tied by authority

Fro etymology page...

desert (v.) Look up desert at Dictionary.com
"to leave one's duty," late 14c., from Old French deserter (12c.) "leave," literally "undo or sever connection," from Late Latin desertare, frequentative of Latin deserere "to abandon, to leave, forsake, give up, leave in the lurch," from de- "undo" (see de-) + serere "join together, put in a row" (see series). Military sense is first recorded 1640s. Related: Deserted; deserting.
desert (n.1) Look up desert at Dictionary.com

"wasteland," early 13c., from Old French desert (12c.) "desert, wilderness, wasteland; destruction, ruin," from Late Latin desertum (source of Italian diserto, Old Provençal dezert, Spanish desierto), literally "thing abandoned" (used in Vulgate to translate "wilderness"), noun use of neuter past participle of Latin deserere "forsake" (see desert (v.)).

Sense of "waterless, treeless region" was in Middle English and gradually became the main meaning. Commonly spelled desart in 18c., which is not etymological but at least avoids confusion with the other two senses of the word. Classical Latin indicated this idea with deserta, plural of desertus.

Every important worker will report what life there is in him. It makes no odds into what seeming deserts the poet is born. Though all his neighbors pronounce it a Sahara, it will be a paradise to him; for the desert which we see is the result of the barrenness of our experience. [Thoreau, Journal, May 6, 1854]
desert (n.2) Look up desert at Dictionary.com

"suitable reward or punishment" (now usually plural and with just), c. 1300, from Old French deserte, noun use of past participle of deservir "be worthy to have," ultimately from Latin deservire "serve well" (see deserve).


http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?t...


message 19: by Martin (new)

Martin | 0 comments Candy, I'd just written my post below before seeing yours,


I have been really surprised by the posts so far. I'd expected an outpouring of recognition of the abuses S writes about with what we see in the world today, and especially the world of the US. Instead it seems to have created some puzzlement. Jonathan, why did you see paradoxes in these lines? Or was that just the reaction after a first reading?

The connection I meant in message 6 is with Hamlet's "to be or not to be",

The insolence of office, and the spurns
That patient merit of the unworthy takes . . .

-- with the same use of personification. (Obviously it is not the office which is insolent, but the officer who hold the office, and so on. And then "purest faith", "gilded honour" and the other virtues are patterned like "patient merit".)

To be a deserving person born into poverty is the fate of millions today. And we all know the "needy nothings trimmed in jollity". In England "needy" still carries the meaning of "attention seeking", although "jollity" is now just "merrymaking", and has lost the sinister 17th century associations. (I won't bore you with the COED definition.) They are the celebrities, famous for nothing except being famous, that the media endlessly display before us as if we are bound to be interested in them. You could in fact gloss each line by a modern illustrative example,

And needy nothing trimmed in jollity -- Paris Hilton
And gilded honour shamefully misplaced -- Donald Trump
And captive good attending captain ill -- Chelsea Manning obeying the prison guards

The poem expresses intensity and anger, but we get that, I think, through the relevance to us of the catalogue of abuses.

The ending, read "out of context", just reminds us that however sickening we find this life, we have a reason for saying alive. Bertrand Russell said that when he was young his desire to learn more mathematics was his reason not to kill himself.

One line in the poem may be seen as commenting on the poem itself,

And art made tongue-tied by authority

The abuses are described in general and not illustrated by the particular. A powerful system of control and censorship would make that essential.


message 20: by Candy (new)

Candy | 2806 comments Mod
Oh thats funny Martin....I guess maybe you and I have read Halet together at least twice...so maybe it's effected our cthinking in similar manners.

I think the tragedy of this sonnet...and it's just so sad and futile to me...is exactly the kind of pain and emotions...many people are feeling...at least on my Facebook feed. Facebook used to be all kittens and science (and Republicans complaining about Obama)...


...now it's just utter meltdowns upon meltdowns of more and more people feeling betrayed by their government...at least now the Dems and Reps...have that feeling in common.


message 21: by Jonathan (new)

Jonathan Moran | 161 comments Martin wrote: "Instead it seems to have created some puzzlement. Jonathan, why did you see paradoxes in these lines? Or was that just the reaction after a first reading?"

I think these are paradoxes because the end result is the opposite of what is expected in a lot of these cases. I am referring to the difference between what is deserved and what people get. In the speaker's mind, those born into poverty are deserving of something good, but instead get dealt the hand of poverty. Is that not paradoxical? That "purest faith" is forsworn is another paradox. What would we expect from purest faith (fidelity)? We would expect it to remain faithful, yet it commits perjury or betrayal. These unexpected twists are what drives the speaker to wish for death.


message 22: by Martin (last edited Feb 17, 2017 12:53AM) (new)

Martin | 0 comments Ah, yes, I see what you mean, and "purest faith unhappily forsworn" does sound as if faith is doing the forswearing.

If you swear something you make an oath; if you forswear you break the oath. A witness in court swears on oath to tell the truth, and if he then tells lies he forswears. So "forswear" came to have "commit perjury" as one of its meanings, with the effect of slandering whoever was on trial. And I think this has to mean "purest faith unhappily slandered", in other words, faith is not forswearing, but is being forsworn by someone else. It then fits with the later lines, about bad things being done to good people.

(I'm reminded of Elizabeth Warren, a person of obvious integrity, being accused of inventing a native American ancestry to advance her career.)


message 23: by James (new)

James Hartley | 23 comments Hi everyone - this is my first sonnet reading with the group and it´s been very enlightening - especially Martin´s examples of how the poem´s truth can be illustrated nowadays. Like Bob D getting a mention, too.

I have a question. I´ve been reading a lot about Shakespeare´s rhetorical devices - those he learned and those he used - and am interested to know how you would all define the construction of the "and" lines, the balance of ideas. Is it "antithesis", not in the sense that he´s using contrasting ideas, but rather in the use of a parallel construction? If not, what is it?

I think this is a great idea to read the sonnets out of order, by the way. It´s made stop and read the words more carefully than I ever have before.


message 24: by Martin (new)

Martin | 0 comments James, Welcome! I've no idea of the answer to your question, but suspect it's some long Greek word. Over to Jonathan or David . . .

:-)


message 25: by Jonathan (new)

Jonathan Moran | 161 comments James wrote: "I am interested to know how you would all define the construction of the "and" lines, the balance of ideas. Is it "antithesis", not in the sense that he´s using contrasting ideas, but rather in the use of a parallel construction? If not, what is it?"

Welcome James. There is a name for the "and" device. I will find it for you by the end of the day. I have an Oxford Handbook on Literary Devices, but it is going to take a minute to find it.

Antithesis? Yes. That is what I would call the device he used to contrast these ideas.

needy nothing | jollity,
purest faith | forsworn,
gilded honour | shamefully misplaced
maiden virtue | rudely strumpeted,

These are all opposites. Antithesis is the poetic device which contrasts two opposites. I suspect you know that though. The way that he strategically placed them in the lines, if I am not mistaken, is called parallelism. I'll check that too. Maybe the use of antithesis is a bit unclear because these are not the traditional dichotomies we are used to seeing:

black | white
truth | lie
rich | poor
life | death

As expected, S goes a little deeper.


message 26: by Jonathan (new)

Jonathan Moran | 161 comments James wrote: "am interested to know how you would all define the construction of the "and" lines,"

James, I don't know if you looked at the previous threads, but I confessed to being an inveterate formalist, and, seriously, you have made my day. The use of "and" at the beginning of a number of lines is called "anaphora". The Oxford Dictionary of Literary Terms defines it as "a rhetorical figure of repetition in which the same word or phrase is repeated in (and usually at the beginning of) successive lines, clauses, or sentences. They say the device was favoured by Dickens and Whitman. They use a piece by Dickinson as an example:

Mine--by the Right of the White Election!
Mine--by the Royal Seal!
Mine--by the Sign in the Scarlet prison
Bars--cannot conceal!


Interestingly, the device where one places this repetition at the end of the line is called "epistrophe", which Oxford defines as "a rhetorical figure by which the same word or phrase is repeated at the end of successive clauses, sentences, or lines." I don't think we will find this in the sonnets because of the strict rhyme scheme. Can anyone find an example of S using this in one of his plays?


message 27: by Jonathan (new)

Jonathan Moran | 161 comments James wrote: "Is it "antithesis", not in the sense that he´s using contrasting ideas, but rather in the use of a parallel construction?"

Oxford says, "The effect of parallelism is usually one of balanced arrangement achieved through repetition of the same syntactic forms. In classical rhetoric, this device is called parison or isocolon. (Since Martin wanted the Greek words) [...] Where the elements arranged in parallel are sharply opposed, the effect is one of antithesis."

I would say these elements are "sharply opposed." Of the four examples I mentioned above, I think the first one begs for an explanation. Shakespeare's Sonnets says "trimm'd in jollity = (undeservingly) done up in frivolous and expensive clothes and ornaments". This is a sharp contrast to a needy nothing.

Also, I think Martin is right about pure faith being forsworn. (I didn't see this at first.) The website says "forsworn = tricked by false promises, betrayed". Pure faith is not the one forswearing, it is the victim here, being betrayed or tricked by false promises.

So, in most of these lines we see someone deserving something good and getting something evil. There is one exception. There is one line that breaks this parallel construction.

And folly (doctor-like) controlling skill I suppose the reason is simply to fit the rhyme scheme. This tells us that S was more concerned with the rhyme scheme than he was with his rhetorical construction. If it followed the prevailing construction, then this line would be "skill controlled by folly." He had to find a word that rhymed with "ill". Moreover, you cannot end an iambic pentameter line with "folly". That is stressed followed by unstressed. So, S adheres to the form of the sonnet, but breaks his parallel construction. Thanks James for bringing all this up.


message 28: by Janice (JG) (new)

Janice (JG) Jonathan wrote: "So, in most of these lines we see someone deserving something good and getting something evil. ..."

And it must be a pattern that S has observed because he's sick to die of it, and would if it weren't for his love, whom he does not wish to leave unprotected. The good are being sacrificed by authority and power. innocence by lust and greed, etc. Not much has changed... I guess that's why S continues to speak to us, and for us.


message 29: by James (new)

James Hartley | 23 comments Excellent stuff! Thanks Jonathan - anaphora was the one I was after, which sprung to mind, but didn´t have the patience/time last night to go through the books and look at the examples. Great stuff.

I love the links between what Shakespeare learnt at school - classical rhetoric, if you want - the devices, methods, etc - and how he put them into practice. Although it seems overwhelming at first - and fiddly - they do begin to jump out at you. His genuius, of course, is in making them fresh, startling and, as we´ve seen with this one - true.


message 30: by Martin (new)

Martin | 0 comments "Anaphora"! Thanks Jonathan. This poem could be used to explain what anaphora is. But I'm wondering why James needs this word. After all, most people seem to get by without it . . .

;-)


message 31: by Jonathan (last edited Feb 18, 2017 01:20AM) (new)

Jonathan Moran | 161 comments Martin wrote: ""Anaphora"! Thanks Jonathan. This poem could be used to explain what anaphora is. But I'm wondering why James needs this word. After all, most people seem to get by without it . . . ;-)"

We need the word! It is astounding to me the advancements that the Greeks and Romans made in understanding rhetoric and all these devices. I think it helps to have the vocabulary, because it helps us to identify the device being used. It is pretty salient here, but in less conspicuous use it may be more helpful.


message 32: by Martin (last edited Feb 18, 2017 01:37AM) (new)

Martin | 0 comments Agreed, but I suspect James want it to put into one of his stories . . .


message 33: by Jonathan (new)

Jonathan Moran | 161 comments Martin wrote: "Agreed, but I suspect James want it to put into one of his stories . . ."

Hmmm.... Stories? I don't know about his stories.


message 34: by James (new)

James Hartley | 23 comments In this case, it´s a bit of both. I´ve been writing about Shakespeare´s first "lost years" and have made him a teacher at a school in a series of stories I am writing for young readers - 13-16yrs old. I wanted to know more about what he would have learned.

But I´m totally in agreement with Jonathan - although the descriptions sound confusing, what they describe is language which is still used today all over the place - especially by politicians and other speech writers. The Greeks and Romans and British placed great interest in examining parts of speech and their different effects and it makes fascinating reading. "Rhetoric" gets a bad press these days - sounds like manipulation - but it´s really just knowing why certain things sound or look good. Everyone knows what alliteration, similies and metaphors are - it´s just more of the same, and just as useful to know about (I think).

There´s a very entertaining little book about it called The Elements of Eloquence by Mark Forsythe which features Shakespeare heavily but is very light, quick reading.


message 35: by Gabriel (new)

Gabriel | 196 comments I didn't know the terminology of rhetoric, and I doubt I'll use it much, but after your question about an example of epistrophe, Jonathan, I just came across this one, not in S but Marlowe:
Faustus:
And what are you that live with Lucifer?
Mephistopheles:
Unhappy spirits that fell with Lucifer
Conspired against our God with Lucifer
And are for ever damned with Lucifer.


message 36: by Gabriel (new)

Gabriel | 196 comments and just after posting that I thought, what about Marc Antony's speech to the citizens with its repeated use of 'They are all honourable men'?


message 37: by Jonathan (new)

Jonathan Moran | 161 comments Gabriel wrote: "I didn't know the terminology of rhetoric, and I doubt I'll use it much, but after your question about an example of epistrophe, Jonathan, I just came across this one, not in S but Marlowe:
Faustus..."


Yeah this is a good example. See Gabriel, you are already using it.


message 38: by Jonathan (new)

Jonathan Moran | 161 comments James wrote: "In this case, it´s a bit of both. I´ve been writing about Shakespeare´s first "lost years" and have made him a teacher at a school in a series of stories I am writing for young readers - 13-16yrs o..."

Sounds interesting. I wish he were my teacher. Well, I suppose, in a way, his is a teacher to all of us.


message 39: by Diane (new)

Diane | 3 comments Anaphora is a good term to know because it goes beyond just simple repetition, used much like parallelism.


message 40: by Janice (JG) (new)

Janice (JG) Gabriel wrote: "I didn't know the terminology of rhetoric, and I doubt I'll use it much, but after your question about an example of epistrophe, Jonathan, I just came across this one, not in S but Marlowe:
Faustus..."


I'm reading Marlowe's Doctor Faustus right now (and enjoying it muchly). Where (which act) in the play is the quote you provided please?


message 41: by DavidE (new)

DavidE (shaxton) | 358 comments This is really not the right sonnet for this post, but I'll forget about the passage if I don't do it now. Hopefully we'll think of it when we cover some sonnet like "Shall I Compare Thee to a Summer's Day."

The passage is from Two Gentlemen of Verona. Proteus is advising Sir Thurio on how to woo--and strategy No. 1 is sonnet writing. Shakespeare has his tongue firmly planted in his cheek.

PROTEUS. But you, Sir Thurio, are not sharp enough;
You must lay lime to tangle her desires
By wailful sonnets, whose composed rhymes
Should be full-fraught with serviceable vows.

DUKE OF MILAN. Ay,
Much is the force of heaven-bred poesy.

PROTEUS. Say that upon the altar of her beauty
You sacrifice your tears, your sighs, your heart:
Write till your ink be dry, and with your tears
Moist it again, and frame some feeling line
That may discover such integrity:
For Orpheus' lute was strung with poets' sinews,
Whose golden touch could soften steel and stones,
Make tigers tame and huge leviathans
Forsake unsounded deeps to dance on sands.
After your dire-lamenting elegies,
Visit by night your lady's chamber-window
With some sweet concert; to their instruments
Tune a deploring dump: the night's dead silence
Will well become such sweet-complaining grievance.
This, or else nothing, will inherit her.


message 42: by Gabriel (new)

Gabriel | 196 comments Janice, the bit I quoted from Dr Faustus is (in my copy at least, which is the Penguin Marlowe Complete Plays) Scene 3 line 71ff


message 43: by Gabriel (new)

Gabriel | 196 comments The most sustained bit of (almost certainly) Shakespeare discussing the power of poetry to woo is in Edward III, 2:1 - and it also gives another eg of epistrophe, but seeming to make fun of it. Edward employs a poet, Lodowick, to write stuff to woo (adulterously) the Countess of Salisbury. Lodowick, not happy with the illegitimate commission, writes it badly. Edward is annoyed with him and demands greater hyperbole:
ED Read o'er the line again.
LOD 'More fair and chaste'-
ED I did not bid thee talk of chastity...
For I had rather have her chased than chaste.
Out with the moon line, I will none of it,
And let me have her likened to the sun,
That her perfections emulates the sun,
That she breeds sweets as plenteous as the sun,
That she doth thaw cold winter like the sun,
That she doth cheer fresh summer like the sun,
That she doth dazzle gazers like the sun,
And in this application to the sun,
Bid her be free and general as the sun...
etc
Edward finally gets fed up with Lodowick and says he'll have to write the stuff himself. But the dialogue all around this is very much better poetry than the sun stuff that Edward wants.


message 44: by DavidE (new)

DavidE (shaxton) | 358 comments Gabriel wrote: "The most sustained bit of (almost certainly) Shakespeare discussing the power of poetry to woo is in Edward III, 2:1 - and it also gives another eg of epistrophe, but seeming to make fun of it. Edw..."

Thanks for the sunny passage, Gabriel. I did not remember it because it's been too many years since I've read Edward III. As far as I can tell, the play does not get much attention. I just bought an edition of the 'complete' plays and Edward III was nowhere to be found.

I wonder if others in the forum are seeing Edward III show up in collected editions?


message 45: by JimF (new)

JimF | 219 comments Message 23: the construction of the "and" lines ...

Sonnet 66

TYr'd with all these for restfull death I cry, [01]
As to behold desert a begger borne,
And needie Nothing trimd in iollitie,
And purest faith vnhappily forsworne,

And gilded honor shamefully misplast, [05]
And maiden vertue rudely strumpeted,
And right perfection wrongfully disgrac'd,
And strength by limping sway disabled,

And arte made tung-tide by authoritie, [09]
And Folly (Doctor-like) controuling skill,
And simple-Truth miscalde Simplicitie,
And captiue-good attending Captaine ill.

Tyr'd with all these, from these would I be gone, [13]
Saue that to dye, I leaue my loue alone.

***

Each line combined by "And" riddles a play's character, e.g. Helena (All's Well) in line 2, Banquo (Macbeth) in line 12. This reading reasons every word of the sonnet (similar to sonnet 129).

Desdemona (Othello) in line 6 of sonnet 66 riddles devil or demon. Demon is a one-way anagram of Desdemona (---demon-). This could be a coincident, for the name was taken from Cinthio's tale ("A Moorish Captain") of Disdemona or Disdamona. Shakespeare named the unnamed Moor in Cinthio's tale to Othello (--hell-), a clue that he knew demon is within Desdemona.

Besides that, all words of sonnet 66 line 6 can be found in the play relating to Desdemona:

OTHELLO. *Rude* am I, in my speech, ... I won his Daughter.
BRABANTIO. A *Maiden*, never bold: ...
IAGO. So will I turn her *virtue* into pitch. ...
OTHELLO. Are not you a *Strumpet*?
DESDEMONA. No, as I am a Christian.
...
DESDEMONA. Why, sweet Othello?
OTHELLO. Devil.
DESDEMONA. I have not deserved this.
LODOVICO. My Lord, ... she weeps.
OTHELLO. Oh devil, devil:

666 is from Bible. Would Shakespeare do the same (arranging sonnets based on Bible) to other sonnets? He did, in sonnet 1, 7, 11, 17, 30, 40, 99, 100, 106, 150 and 153; e.g. sonnet 99 is about sinner, "one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons" (Luk. 15:7).


message 46: by JimF (new)

JimF | 219 comments Each line of sonnet 66 seals a play's character. All words can be reasoned in this reading, which is different from other editions. To affirm that, sonnet 129 follows the same idea, that each line seals a play. Interesting thing is, 129 is within the so-called Dark Lady sonnets.

Characters in sonnet 66:

[1] all these: all the following characters and plays.
[2] Helena (All's Well that Ends Well)
[3] Christopher Sly (The Taming of the Shrew)
[4] Timon (Timon of Athens)
[5] Caius Martius (Coriolanus)
[6] Desdemona (Othello)
[7] Cordelia (King Lear)
[8] Anthony (Anthony and Cleopatra)
[9] artisans (Julius Caesar)
[10] craftsmen (A Midsummer Night's Dream)
[11] Costard (Love's Labor's Lost)
[12] Banquo (Macbeth)
[13] be gone: stop writing.
[14] my love: the speaker's love of drama.


message 47: by Janice (JG) (new)

Janice (JG) JimF wrote: "Each line of sonnet 66 seals a play's character. All words can be reasoned in this reading, which is different from other editions. To affirm that, sonnet 129 follows the same idea, that each line ..."

This explains why he is so sick of them, but can't let them go.


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