February 2017 - Whats Eating Gilbert Grape

[Joan]

Tammy wrote: "Joan wrote: "In its review, Publishers Weekly said this book has "clever literary symbols"; please let us know if you notice any.


I just noticed that Publishers Weekly has no apostrophe- huh."

I..."
good one Tammy

The bit of meat left on the chicken wing struck me as a literary symbol Chapter 25 (view spoiler)[ Gilbert is not quite ready to finish with Mrs. Carter - at this point in the story he needs to leave a little on the table though he seems to think he is showing his ability to choose to walk away - (hide spoiler)]

[Joan]

Cherie wrote: "I just saw the remark/question about grounding Ellen. (view spoiler)[ Who was going to Enforce it? Amy and Gilbert do not want to make waves with their mother. She is not going to tell Ellen anything. Ellen doesn'..." (hide spoiler)]

Cherie - exactly! Chap 3 spoiler (view spoiler)[
I think that is what Tammy meant about Ellen needing discipline - and I wondered who could give instructions/discipline in this family. (hide spoiler)]

[Joan]

Margo wrote: "I'm have reading problems so paper books are rarely an option for me. I like kindle cos it has OpenDyslexia text which I find easier, plus you have the text-to-speech option. Other than that I do a..."

Margo,
I am glad you find it on Kindle. Here in the US, our Library of Congress has digital and audio books for people for whom books are not usable. Your country may have something similar.

[Joan]

Do you think Gilbert is a reliable narrator about how the people in town view the Grape family?

[Margo]

Joan wrote: "Margo wrote: "I'm have reading problems so paper books are rarely an option for me. I like kindle cos it has OpenDyslexia text which I find easier, plus you have the text-to-speech option. Other th..."

no, i think all we have is a blind library for which i don't qualify :(

ah well, thank goodness for kindle!

[Tammy]

Joan wrote: "Do you think Gilbert is a reliable narrator about how the people in town view the Grape family?"

I would imagine he has a skewed view as he seems pretty self conscious. However, the family is odd, has had tradgedy, and people know of the mothers size. All ingredients for not desiring to get too close. I do think the family self isolates to avoid hurt from outside.

[Peg]

I started reading last night, and I'm up to Part 2, chapter 21. I agree with Tammy that his view is most likely skewed. (view spoiler)[He also dismisses things he disagrees with very easily, or doesn't pay attention. As an example, not really knowing what his older brother does, or not being able to listen to what his older sister does because he's never flown and he doesn't understand her description. I haven't seen the movie and I'm not sure this far in to the book that I want to. It is depressing, with the only happiness I see coming from Arnie, who can enjoy the simple things without real life and the losses weighing him down. (hide spoiler)]

Literary symbols? The first one that hit me was the town name. ENDora. Great name for the dead end town.

[Joan]

Peg (view spoiler)[ I'd found Gilbert very irritating but until you spelled it out, I couldn't say why. His smug dismissal of things he didn't like made him seem more like a teenager than a twenty-something to me. (hide spoiler)]

[Joan]

Alright! Publishers Weekly said there are "clever literary symbols".
So far we have: Arnie a symbol of American chaos - hmm prescient comment for 2017 don't you think : )
Endora a symbol of the end town
The meat on the chicken wing a symbol of an event in the novel

Let us know if you find any others - foreshadowings, metaphors, epiphanies, all those things they mention in study-guides for students.

[Tammy]

Don't you think Gilbert is kind of old for Becky?

[Tammy]

Finished the book

[Joan]

Tammy, I'm glad you brought that up. Spoiler for the end of the book.
(view spoiler)[Several people have commented that Gilbert seems more like a teenager than a 24 yr old.

Does Becky seem to act her age, Chap 27?

Do you think the behavior/chronological mismatch lies with Gilbert or the author's writing? (hide spoiler)]

[Tammy]

I'm wondering if Gilbert's developmental stages have been held back because of the trauma he has suffered in his life. This could cause him to act younger than his chronological age.

[Peg]

I finished the book. I agree Tammy, he is too old. Could be his development. Aren't his friends on the same level he is and they're his age also.

[Cherie]

Peg wrote: "I finished the book. I agree Tammy, he is too old. Could be his development. Aren't his friends on the same level he is and they're his age also."

That is what I thought throughout the whole story, Peg. Gilbert and his friends read much younger. Tucker continually was asking Gilbert to set him up on a date with Ellen, and they are all chasing Becky, after she shows up in the story.

Becky definitely seemed to act older than 15, which was even younger than Ellen. Her grandma tried to point out to Gilbert that Becky was too young for him. I think he understood mentally, but emotionally, he was still lusting after her. I never quite understood her. It seemed that she knew that Gilbert was too old for her, but she came across as much more mature.

[Cherie]

Joan wrote: "Do you think the behavior/chronological mismatch lies with Gilbert or the author's writing?..."

I have to think that the mismatch was per the author's writing. Gilbert and his family members were all damaged, not just Arnie.
There was a definite disparity between their emotional age and their physical ages.

[Cherie]

Joan wrote: "Tammy wrote: "Joan wrote: "In its review, Publishers Weekly said this book has "clever literary symbols"; please let us know if you notice any.
I just noticed that Publishers Weekly has no apostr..."

Re: the meat left on the wing. I could not figure this out, until I read the response in message 51. Thank you!

[Cherie]

Now that I have read the book, I want to see the movie again. My memory of the movie seemed out of sequence with the order of things that happened in the book. That is what was bothering me, most of the way through. I also want to see what they brought out in the movie vs what happened in the book.
I honestly do not remember Gilbert's two older siblings at all, either.

I could not understand Janice at all, and her "girlie" pact with Ellen. She seemed to go out of her way to put Gilbert down, but I did not understand why.

I guess I have a question about the father, that feels stupid, but I am going to ask any way. (view spoiler)[did he hang himself because of Arnie? Because he could not accept that he was retarded? (hide spoiler)]

[Peg]

Cherie, I wondered that also. (view spoiler)[ It never really says. It had been confirmed just a few months before though. Also when the mother is 'talking to the father' in the living room she mentions that she's glad or it was better that they didn't put in him a home. To me the biggest confirmation was she just wanted to live until he turned 18. Regardless of his condition, I think that's when she thought her responsibility to him ended, even though he was never meant to live that long, and then she could leave and escape her pain. (hide spoiler)]
I also think the mother's weight was a symbol of all the pain and memories they were all holding on to, keeping them down.

[Joan]

Peg - The mother's weight (view spoiler)[destroying the house - what a symbol of the family baggage. (hide spoiler)]

Cherie - it was interesting that all the neighbors (view spoiler)[say the father as cheerful, helpful, optimistic - so they were missing his stress/depression - and I thought they all seemed oblivious to Gilbert's stress too. Maybe they both wore themselves out caring for others. (hide spoiler)]

The publisher's web site had this discussion question:
When Becky asks what Gilbert wants, (view spoiler)[he asks for things for everyone but himself. What is the detriment of caring exclusively for others? (hide spoiler)]

[Joan]

One of the things I could not figure out: (view spoiler)[Gilbert's Mom acted more selfish than grief-ridden, demanding service from the kids continually, not really interacting even with Arnie, not commenting on Ellen's late hours. I just couldn't figure out if she was completely destroyed by grief or had grown up a pampered, pretty spoiled brat who sucked the life out of her husband. (hide spoiler)] yikes I'm harsh.

[Kristie, Moderator]

So, I just went on Netflix to add this movie to my queue so that I remember to watch it after reading the book and was informed by Netflix that I watched this movie in May of 2008 and rated it 4 stars. I really don't remember that! I've been racking my brain trying to recall the characters or come up with a scene, anything I haven't seen in the trailer, but I can't. I'll have to watch it again. I wonder how much of it will seem familiar when I'm actually watching it.

[Joan]

Kristie wrote: "So, I just went on Netflix to add this movie to my queue so that I remember to watch it after reading the book and was informed by Netflix that I watched this movie in May of 2008 and rated it 4 st..."

I always forget seeing movies that I don't like. In college I ended up seeing one movie 3 times because it was so bad I kept forgetting it.

[Kristie, Moderator]

Haha, Joan. I think if it was that bad I'd remember. lol The thing is, I rated it 4 out of 5 stars, so I must have liked it. I just don't remember it at all.

[Joan]

Do you think the Grape children should (spoiler for Chap 2(view spoiler)[have been removed from their Mother's care? (hide spoiler)]

[Cherie]

I am adding this note to indicate that these comments should not be read until after you have finished reading the book. - just to be sure we do not give anything away for later readers. CLR 2/15

Re the mother: (view spoiler)[ I thought it was interesting that she DID know that the floor was sagging, and then, I thought she was eating and gaining weight so that she could destroy the house, to get back at her husband, somehow. (hide spoiler)]

Re the husband: (view spoiler)[ it is possible that his good humor and easy going attitude did mask a depression, but it is never really indicated. We never know the family dynamics until after the father is gone and the mother has started eating and gaining weight, but it is never really been an issue as much as it had been until a few years before Arnie was to turn 18. It seemed to have been escalating the closer Arnie was to get to his 18th birthday. I cannot tell though, because Gilbert had been out of school for 7years. So, is that when it started getting worse? (hide spoiler)]

re small town (view spoiler)[In such a small town, it is hard to believe that the neighbors could not know that things were wrong. The unfortunate side is that is that they will choose to ignore things because they do not want to get involved. That is what I have seen. I think the grocery store owners that Gilbert worked for knew that things were bad, but they just tried to bolster Gilbert's emotions and support him, I guess. They seemed very unrealistic to me. (hide spoiler)]

Re caregivers: It is true, that caregivers have a hard time seeing outside of their situation. It leads to anger, resentment and self denial. Chapter 52 (view spoiler)[When Gilbert beat up Arnie in the bath tub was a perfect example of what happens when they finally blow their top. (hide spoiler)]

[Peg]

Joan, I don't think you're too harsh! It could be either way, although I tend to go with the first thought.

After reading what you wrote Cherie, (view spoiler)[ I think it was her plan to eat in a form of suicide and go as soon as Arnie turned 18. That was her only goal that she stated all the time. I think it said that her eating had increased in the months leading up to his birthday (hide spoiler)]

Small town or big city, so many turn a blind eye to family situations. I think in small towns though, more people know about it which is worse that help is not there. Then again, they may not always have the resources or the education to help.

[Joan]

@Cherie & Peg
Your comments made me think again of my childhood friends GiGi & FiFi. (view spoiler)[ When their younger brother graduated from high school their Mom started drinking and drank herself to death within a few years. FiFi said her Mom had wanted to die ever since the death of her husband. (hide spoiler)]

[Cherie]

I did not think you were being too harsh either, Joan (re message 71)

With respect to the mom and only wanting to make it to Arnie's 18th birthday (view spoiler)[she got her wish! (hide spoiler)]

I have never personally known anyone to intentionally do something like this. It is hard to comprehend.

[Joan]

and spoiler for the end of the book
(view spoiler)[ were would they have been sent? I was just thinking of this in relation to current events when the child welfare authorities are criticized for not removing kids ...I wonder what I would have been thinking if I was the family doctor or a teacher (hide spoiler)]in Endora.

[Sarah]

I'd appreciate it if you could just check your comments to make sure you're not giving anything away to other readers that come in late to the discussion and add spoiler comments where necessary. I've been reading through the comments and it seems like a lot of information is being given away. I'm not reading the book or intend to so I don't mind but others might.

[Joan]

I went back and put spoiler alerts in my posts; however, if you responded to one of my inappropriate comments I cannot fix it. Please delete or modify my words in your posts.
Sorry for the inconvenience.

[Cherie]

I checked all of my remarks. I don't think I was giving anything away in anything I had already put into a spoiler.

I have been looking back through the book trying to find "clever literary symbols", but no luck yet. I do love the name of the store they stop at, ENDora OF THE LINE.

I was driving up to see some family friends in Washington State, and decided to take a bypass route that I had never taken before. I passed a small storage place and almost laughed myself off of the road. It was called CRAM-A-LOT Storage.
I still giggle when I see United HAIR Lines on the beauty parlor down the street from my house.

[Joan]

Cherie wrote: "I checked all of my remarks. I don't think I was giving anything away in anything I had already put into a spoiler.

I have been looking back through the book trying to find "clever literary symbo..."

Cherie wrote: "I checked all of my remarks. I don't think I was giving anything away in anything I had already put into a spoiler.

I have been looking back through the book trying to find "clever literary symbo..."

OMG it's like you live in ENDora.
Be sure to check the Seattle Propane signs at Wallingford Chevron - they are all over the web, pun funny.

[Peg]

Ok, I checked my comments. Hopefully I've tucked away all spoilers. If not, please let me know so I can correct it.

Cherie, that's so funny! I love when business have fun with their names, makes them memorable!

[Joan]

Thank you

[Sarah]

Thank you for making changes.

I'd appreciate it if you could spoiler msg 76 Cherie - the last two paragraphs infer a lot for someone which is coming in at this stage of the read.

I have deleted one comment above, Cherie's response to one of Joan's questions - it wasn't a huge amount of text - just one line. Personally I think it was quite revealing and inferred that something had happened to warrant that behaviour. As I have said, I have not read the book nor will I be reading. However, I tend to go have a read of the synopsis. In my eyes, discussing things openly which appear in the synopsis is fine because that is already common knowledge, as is discussing characters and what you think of them, but discussing events or what you would have done instead etc. needs to be put in spoiler tags.

[Joan]

How does the size of Endora tie into the events of the story?

[Joan]

Cherie, another literary symbol, though I think this was heavy-handed, not finessed. Spoiler for Chapter 45 (view spoiler)[ the burning of the school representing the destruction of so many things and the transition of Endora from isolated small town to being subsumed into the larger school district and a suburb with grocery chain, burger chain. (hide spoiler)]
Chap 60 (view spoiler)[ it also presaged the burning of the house and destruction of all those family issues (hide spoiler)]

[Cherie]

Sarah wrote: "Thank you for making changes.

I'd appreciate it if you could spoiler msg 76 Cherie - the last two paragraphs infer a lot for someone which is coming in at this stage of the read.

I have deleted o..."

I have spoilered message 76. Sorry that I missed that.

[Margo]

I started reading this on kindle today. I've just finished chapter 14 which is unusualky fast reading for me! It is an easy read so far mostly pleasant but every now and again something surprisingly dark jumps out and gives me a jolt. I haven't read through the thread yet - will have a look now and see if there are any observations on the early parts.

[Joan]

Margo, welcome to the discussion.
What is your impression of the Grape family at his point?

[Sarah]

Thanks Cherie.

[Margo]

Joan wrote: "Margot, welcome to the discussion.
What is your impression of the Grape family at his point?"

End of chapter 14 (view spoiler)[ talk about dysfunctionak families! This is a family totally distroyed by the suicide of their father. It seems that their mother is comitting suicide by eating herself to death. She has abandoned all attemts to care for family allowing the burdon to fall on the 2 eldest children. There are references to the eldest daughter having previously worked in in a school. Did she have to quit to look after Arnold! Money seems to be tight. The house is not looked after and the 3rd siblig (whose name escapes me at present) is not pulling her weight. She seems very spoilt which is odd in the circumstances. She also seems to think that noone else in history has ever gotten their period! I was interested in the scene where Gilbert drove over her lawn chair. We assume at the time that she was the target of his rage, her laziness and bad manners however we later discover that the chain belonged to the dead father. Does this provide an ulterior motive for the incident? (hide spoiler)]

[Joan]

Interesting observation about (view spoiler)[ the chair and its link to their father. I wonder if the chair is one of those "clever literary symbols" mentioned by the reviewers.
The menstruation drama - funny coming from a male writer. (hide spoiler)]

[Joan]

Margo wrote: "Joan wrote: "Margot, welcome to the discussion.
What is your impression of the Grape family at his point?"

End of chapter 14 [spoilers removed]"

Sorry about adding a T to your name; I fixed my pst.

[Margo]

Oh thats fine Joan - most people do spell it with a t. It was very kind of you to welcome me into me into the discussion :-)
.

[Margo]

Chapter 19: Haven't progressed very much in the last few days as I've been busy but (view spoiler)[ why are they bothering to reinforce the floors under Momma? She is eating them out of house and home and they are enabling her! If they care for her they should stop her eating, if they don't care - well there are kinder ways to do do assisted suicide. I'm starting to feel this book is going nowhere fast (hide spoiler)]

[Joan]

I hope you were busy with good things.
Re: Chapter 19
I found Tucker's attitude puzzling.
(view spoiler)[why did he care so much for Momma (hide spoiler)]

[Kristie, Moderator]

I'm planning to start this one soon. I'm reading it for the toppler. :)