THE WORLD WAR TWO GROUP discussion
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2017 - February - Theme Read on any WW2 Battle/Campaign from the Defeated Perspective
By 1945 things were getting serious for the Wehrmacht in regards to fuel. The author mentioned this account in his chapter on the preparations for Operation 'Konrad III':" ... The loss of this infantry support was serious but there was yet another foreboding omen; dwindling fuel supplies forced Heeresgruppe Sud to order all troops not to use vehicles unless absolutely necessary. This order also referred to the units taking part in Operation Konrad III. The commanders of the Heeresgruppe feared that the assault which had already been initiated would be forced to stop because of lack of fuel."
Finished up
Dunkirk - The Men They Left Behind: very good, but I'll get my thoughts typed up in a couple of days, once I get a moment! In the meantime I'm starting
After Hitler: The Last Days of World War Two in Europe, which may be less in the spirit of the theme read; but I'll drop in any observations if they're relevant
I'll look forward to your final comments on the Dunkirk book and Michael Jones' is still a good fit for the theme read, keep us posted.
Yes I echo Ricks sentiments Jonny. Charles Jager described how him a few comrades moved on from the village Skine where they had stayed and had been treated very well. The days after he and his comrade Ben entered another village and were told of a massacre back in Skine, just after then they left.
I engine searched and the wiki has the Massacre of Kondomari.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacr...
I also came across this that mentions Skine in the comments,
http://www.pappaspost.com/brutal-nazi...
To save looking among the usual irrelevant comment this is what is written for those who are interested. "These photos should be published again and again for the world to see the atrocities of this war. Shooting unarmed civilians also occurred at the village of my parents, Skine, Crete. Retribution for the kidnapping of a German general also occasioned the burning of the entire village. This meant the villagers scattered to live in caves, as did my mother, or under the trees with flimsy sheets for protection from the elements. Some of the more fortunate villagers had relatives in other villages with which to stay. Rebuilding poor impoverished homes went on for decades and many people still live in those homes. The small payments of German retribution have never been enough to compensate for the misery and destruction."
I intend to read the kidnapping of the general. Abducting a General: The Kreipe Operation and SOE in Crete by Patrick Leigh Fermor, an exceptional author for those that may not have heard of him.
One of the things that has been a recurring theme in my reading of localised events, the invasion of Crete being the latest example of this, is the expectations of the occupied towards their allies and in this case the British. Jager writes, "They firmly believe that the British will return and meanwhile they'll continue to oppose our common enemy and to feed and shelter us even though the penalty is an order to dig their own grave. Of all those in occupied Europe, Cretans are the best organised and most resolute in opposition to the enemy. Shameful that after the war Britain so quickly forgot this loyalty"
I am enjoying this book, it is not in the league of Sledge by any stretch but then what is? I think that Jager, for an ex soldier and amateur writer does not deserve me to be too hard on prose that is a little bit pretentious, it is after all his story written later in life and precious memories to him, his family and friends. I have not read enough of these personal accounts in the past so will refrain from expecting this book to be anything other than what it is, an old soldier reminiscing.
message 106:
by
Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces
(new)
Jonny wrote: "Finished up Dunkirk - The Men They Left Behind: very good, but I'll get my thoughts typed up in a couple of days, once I get a ..."Sounds like it has been a good book Jonny so be interested hear your overall thoughts.
Charles and his mate Ben have a bit of a disagreement over the way Charles walks. He is obviously not Cretan and the Cretan's let them know. Ben gets it, Charles don't. The Germans on the other hand have no idea about how the different peoples walk. Ben moves to the other side of the road and says he is not being seen with Charles and Charles gets narky and says OK then and proceeded to get captured when a Greek quisling gets a German Kubelwagon he is with to stop and check his funny walk. "I am a prize chump" writes Charles.
Bou wrote: "I just finalized the second part of D DAY Through German Eyes - The Hidden Story of June 6th 1944 in which a number of German veterans are interviewed about their experience on D-da..."Yes, the Bf-108 Taifun as the two seat Messerschmitt training aircraft, the Taifun B was designed for use by KG-200, and was to be remotely flown like a drone by radio, like the Fritz X cruise missile (which sank the Italian battleship Roma in 1944). The purpose was to use it like a V-1 flying bomb.
4triplezed wrote: "Charles and his mate Ben have a bit of a disagreement over the way Charles walks. He is obviously not Cretan and the Cretan's let them know. Ben gets it, Charles don't. The Germans on the other han..."That's a funny story :)
(not for Charles though!)
The two books that fit into this months category:
South From CorregidorSouth from Corregidor by Lieutenant Commander John Morrill U.S.N. When the Philippines fell, Morrill didn’t want to surrender to the Japanese, so he came up with a plan to sneak away. He wanted his men to go with him, but the journey was dangerous and risky. He gave his men a choice to surrender or sneak away at dusk. A few of the men said no because they were so defeated. They had given everything to keep Corregidor from falling into the hands of the Japanese, and they were unable to deal with the risk involved in sneaking away.
General Wainwright's Story: The Account of Four Years of Humiliating Defeat, Surrender, and CaptivityThe General Wainwright’s Story. General MacArthur and General Wainwright knew there was a chance that war was going to come to the Philippines, but they thought they had another six months to prepare. Most of their equipment and guns were out of date or left over from WW1. The U.S. couldn’t get supplies or men to the Philippines due to a Japanese blockade, which lead to the fall of Bataan and Corregidor. Wainwright and his men surrendered at Corregidor and was held captive for almost four years. During that time, they were starved, beaten and treated inhumanely.
It is well known that the US government considered the Philippines a sacrificial lamb to buy time to prepare for the war in Europe and in the Pacific. The high ranking US Officials knew the Philippines couldn't win their fight again the Japanese, but they demanded the men of Bataan to fight to last man. MacArthur ordered Wainwright not to surrender on Bataan, but General King surrendered when the front line crumbled.
Two good choices in connection with the theme. I've always felt sympathy for Wainwright's dilemma.
Jonny wrote: "Finished up Dunkirk - The Men They Left Behind: very good, but I'll get my thoughts typed up in a couple of days, once I get a ..."I really liked this one (4+ star read for me) Along with all the others, I look forward to your thoughts.
I chose a title with only 157 pages: WN 62 - A German Soldier's Memories of the Defence of Omaha Beach, Normandy, June 6 This way I can finish before the end of the month and be prepared for March!
My final (theme specific) thoughts on
Dunkirk - The Men They Left Behind"For every seven men who were evacuated via Dunkirk one man was left behind as a prisoner of war"
That pretty much sums up the book. Where formations of men or battles are described, it is a minority event. The entire book is about individuals or groups left behind or abandoned to their sorry and unacknowledged fate; five long years of captivity, slavery and official ignorance. Force marched from the position of capture (France's Atlantic coast, for some) to Germany, ritually humiliated and then force marched again in the opposite direction before the advancing Red Army.
I'll leave you with a couple of (long, sorry) quotes from the forced march, which will leave you with wholly the wrong impression:
"The next day they found some relief, stopping for the night in the garden of an inn. Able to trade with Belgian civilians, they furnished themselves with soap, towels and toothbrushes as well as desperately needed food. It was not just the food that helped lift their morale. The Belgians helped raise their spirits by telling them that the British always lost the first battle but then won the one that really mattered - the last one. Then they laughed and said they would prefer that the British didn't always lose the first battle in Belgium."
"For one household in the small mining town of Ashington, Northumberland the chaos of the defeat in France had an immediate impact. The Charters family had two sons serving as machine-gunners in the 7th Battalion of the Northumberland Fusiliers. Brothers Jim and Jack Charters had both been fortunate to survive the battle at St Valery yet no news of their fate had reached their parents. However, a handful of their regiment had reached home. One of them returned to Ashington with tragic news – a story soon went around the town that the two brothers had been killed at St Valery. What made it worse was that the man did not visit their parents to tell them what he believed had happened. Instead they received the news via friends and neighbours who came to commiserate with them at their loss. It was a terrible blow – to lose one son was bad enough but to lose two was devastating. Then to receive the news indirectly only compounded the emotional blow. The only consolation was that at least they had some notion of their sons’ fate – or so they thought. While so many families were still waiting for any news, the Charterses received an unexpected communication. The postman delivered a letter, written in an unfamiliar hand, postmarked Geneva. When Jim Charters had handed over his address to a woman at the roadside during the march into captivity he had no notion of the impact it would have. The woman, Madame Grenier who resided in the town of Wingles, had kept Jim Charters’ note and written to his home: ‘I’ve still got the original of the letter she sent to my parents. I handed over the message not expecting the news to get home. But the woman sent a letter to Geneva and that was posted to my parents. The woman had written it in French so my father had to take it to a local schoolteacher to get it translated. It was the first my parents knew that we were still alive.’ That was enough for the family. Their boys were not home but at least they were alive. When the brothers finally returned home they wanted to find out who had so cruelly lied to the town about their supposed fate. Their father seemed to know the identity of the culprit but refused to reveal his name. The local branch of the British Legion even wanted the man to be prosecuted, but Charters senior refused. Instead the people of Ashington took action and drove the man from the town. As for Madame Grenier, she later became a member of the French Resistance and was eventually imprisoned by the Germans. She survived the war, was decorated by the French government and died in 1986."
I simply can't recommend this enough. I'll post a "proper" review as soon as possible
Interesting story in
After Hitler: The Last Days of World War Two in Europe discussing the defenders of Berlin;"The soldiers of the LVI Panzer Corps were known to the Russians already, for in the spring of 1944 they had been responsible for the worst atrocity ever committed by the German Army in the Soviet Union, the creation of Typhus camps where more than 50,000 civilians in the region of Parichi were deliberately infected, and then left in the path of the advancing Red Army, with the hope of causing a major epidemic among the Russian soldiers."
Anyone ever heard of this?
Jonny, I find that very interesting about the Typhus camps in Parichi. I hadn't read that information before, but I would be interested in learning more on the subject.
I've read about the Typhus camps previously but I can't remember which book although I am thinking it might even be in Michael Jones' other book; Total War: From Stalingrad to Berlin but I will have to find my copy and check.
Total War: From Stalingrad to Berlin by Michael Jones
I've also heard of the Typhus camps and will have to search out where I read it.
Considering the condition of the camps themselves and that they all tended to be disease ridden anyway it points to more of the bizarre from the Nazi's.
I found details of a deliberate set up of a camp with typhus with the view of infecting the advancing Russian armies in Jones' other book; Total War: From Stalingrad to Berlin, on page 144.
Finished Escape from Crete. In my research I came across an interesting site for those with an interest in Australian POW's. http://www.anzacpow.com/welcome_letter
Also found this site that I thought was nice.
https://thingsthatmadeanimpression.wo...
Also Jager makes mention of this book. Would not mind reading it if I find it.
Not As A Duty Only: An Infantryman's WarInfo about Charles wartime comrade Ben, whose actual name is Frank Dudey Travers, is very hard to find on the www. Charles writes at the end of his book about Ben transferring from 2/2 to 2/5 Battalion and fighting in New Guinea. He eventually stowed way with US infantry and fought in the Philippines where he was wounded and recommended by his US officer for a decoration. As an AWL he was unable to receive anything from the Australian military. I think that Ben could have written an interesting book as well. He learn fluent Greek.
One of the other individuals that gets a mention in the book is a NZer called John Redpath. His story is worth knowing. This link makes useful reading.
http://www.aucklandmuseum.com/war-mem...
This link makes no mention of his death but Jager says that once home "........like so many who could not come to terms with peace, the grog got him and he soon died"
Some great links there 4triplezed. I have seen copies of Not As A Duty Only: An Infantryman's War in a few second hand book shops so you should be able to find a copy hopefully, if not check out these search sites:http://www.bookfinder.com/
https://www.abebooks.com/
The author of the book on the German offensives to relieve Budapest in 1945 quotes a Russian captain in regards to their reorganization with some brand new SU-76 SPGs:" ... Later in the day fifteen brand new SU-76 SPGs arrived for the brigade. The tank men had not seen such machines before and initial assessment of them was pretty sceptical. The weak armour protection and low power gun meant it would not find any favourable niche in the history books; it would disappear from the front line as suddenly as it had appeared having been given an unflattering nickname - 'cigarette lighter'. But back then the 2nd Tank Battalion was reorganised into a SPG unit because of those things. An unusual battalion structure was introduced: three batteries comprising five SPGs a piece. Straight away we encountered problems with the supply of fuel, ammunition and spare parts for these machines."
I can't find anything on why the SU-76 was nicknamed the 'cigarette lighter' but here are a few links to the SU-76:
http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2...
http://www.flamesofwar.com/Default.as...
I've enjoyed reading about the Crete campaign. It was certainly a drama, and there has been considerable debate about it. Matthew Wright, a New Zealand author certainly disputes Anthony Beevor's criticisms of Freyberg (see this blog post for a summary: https://mjwrightnz.wordpress.com/2016... ). My grandfather served in 18 Battalion and it was fascinating hearing his accounts of the evacuation.
Good link Bevan, thanks for sharing the details.Seems everyone is reading about Crete at the moment! :)
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Some great links there 4triplezed. I have seen copies of Not As A Duty Only: An Infantryman's War in a few second hand book shops so you should be able to find a copy hopefully, if not check out th..."Cheers Rick. I will be looking in the local 2nd hand shops first.
Bevan wrote: "I've enjoyed reading about the Crete campaign. It was certainly a drama, and there has been considerable debate about it. Matthew Wright, a New Zealand author certainly disputes Anthony Beevor's criticisms of Freyberg (see this blog post for a summary: https://mjwrightnz.wordpress.com/2016... ). My grandfather served in 18 Battalion and it was fascinating hearing his accounts of the evacuation. ."Thanks Bevan. Good link. I am adding ANZAC fury to the next theme read and if able will include Abducting a General by Leigh Fermor. Once these are done and dusted if the itch is not scratched I will get Beevor and Wrights.
Would have been great to listen to your Grandfather. Did he ever venture and opinion on Freyberg?
A little late in the month, but I'm joining the group with:
Fighting for MacArthur: The Navy and Marine Corps' Desperate Defense of the Philippines by John Gordon.
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I found details of a deliberate set up of a camp with typhus with the view of infecting the advancing Russian armies in Jones' other book; Total War: From Stalingrad to Berlin, on page 144."Thanks Rick; I'll keep plugging away at the internet, to see if I can find any independent verification.
Interesting to read that the fighting got worse, if anything, after the fall of Berlin and Hitler's death. Also Donitz and his government appear to be as fanatical, if not moreso, than the men they replaced.
Finished:
by Mitsuo Fuchida This was a very interesting approach to the Battle of Midway and the authors were very clear and honest about the issues, mistakes and attitudes that cost the Japanese the victory.
Michael wrote: "Finished: by Mitsuo Fuchida This was a very interesting approach to the Battle of Midway and the au..."Had not heard of this one before, added TBR.
I just finished WN 62 - A German Soldier's Memories of the Defence of Omaha Beach, Normandy, June 6, a quick read with only 157 pages. While a very interesting story, I feel it looses something in the translation. Heinrich 'Hein' Severloh became seriously ill on the Eastern Front and after rehabilitation was ordered to be an orderly for his artillery battery commander 1st Lt. Bernhard Frerking on the Normandy coast of France. On June 6, 1944 Hein's position was to man an MG 42 near the battery's observation bunker. His D-Day experience was unlike any other's, he later likened what he did with his machinegun to the opening scene of "Saving Pvt. Ryan," and his life was haunted with the guilt of the lives of so many men he took that day.I look forward to what fellow readers think of this book. After rating "WN 62" only three stars, did someone find it a better read than I did?
From John Gordon's Fighting for MacArthur: The Navy and Marine Corps' Desperate Defense of the Philippines.I have long believed MacArthur's performance in the Philippines in the first days after Pearl Harbor was among the most incompetent in the history of American arms. It ranks as such above St. Clair's Battle of the Wabash, McClellan on the Peninsula or Custer at Little Big Horn. As Gordon writes:
Over nine hours after receiving word of the Pearl Harbor attack, the Army Air Force in the Philippines had been caught largely on the ground. Inexperience, bad luck, poor training, miscommunication, and some undeniable incompetence resulted in the Army's Far Eastern Air Force suffering a disastrous defeat...forty-nine American aircraft had been destroyed on the ground at Clark and Iba, including twelve of nineteen B-17s. In addition, nine P-40 fighters were either shot down or crashed when they ran out of fuel. More aircraft, including fighters and bombers, were damaged in the attack. Only fifty-eight of the Army's ninety-two P-40 fighters remained operational at the end of the first day of battle. Of the Army's five pursuit squadrons, two (the 3rd and the 20th) had been eliminated...No Japanese bombers had been lost over Luzon...
Although the exact sequence of events during the morning of 8 December will never be known (historians have tried unsuccessfully for years to reconcile the statements of MacArthur, Sutherland, Brereton, and other key Army Air Force personnel), there is no question that the senior Army leaders in the Philippines were completely responsible for the disaster...MacArthur clearly should have shouldered much of the blame for this disaster. Indeed, in some militaries he, his chief of staff, and his air commander would have all been relieved, or worse.
Gordon's points above don't even address the bungled ground campaign. Stalin would have had "Dugout Doug” and his staff shot, but FDR promoted MacArthur to Four Stars and gave him the Medal of Honor. Compare that treatment to what happened to Admiral Husband Kimmel after Pearl Harbor.
Manray9 wrote: "From John Gordon's Fighting for MacArthur: The Navy and Marine Corps' Desperate Defense of the Philippines.I have long believed MacArthur's performance in the Philippines in the f..."
Very good point about what Stalin would have done and the comparison between Admiral Kimmel and MacAuthur, hard to fathom.
Michael wrote: "Finished: by Mitsuo Fuchida This was a very interesting approach to the Battle of Midway and the au..."I think it was Fuchida's account of the battle that has been thoroughly debunked by Parshall & Tully in
. I highly recommend that work, instead.
I also reading this book as part of the theme month:
Line of Fire by Ian TownsendIt covers an incident during the Japanese invasion and occupation of Rabaul during WWII:
http://www.ww2australia.gov.au/japadv...
Bruce Gamble mentions this incident in the second book of his trilogy on Rabaul, page 177-178:
Fortress Rabaul: The Battle for the Southwest Pacific, January 1942-April 1943 by Bruce Gamble
Making good progress with
After Hitler: The Last Days of World War Two in Europe, with a decent depiction of 21st Army's activities in Northern Germany; a more measured description of the tragic sinking of the Cap Arcona than when last I heard of it (
A Passing Fury: Searching for Justice at the End of World War II), a very good description of Montgomery's theatrics on Luneburg Heath and the antics of T Force in Kiel (can we all spell "diplomatic incident?). Very readable, enjoying the book immensely.
Sounds good Jonny. I have always enjoyed Michael Jones' books so I will try and read this one pretty soon.
From John Gordon's Fighting for MacArthur: The Navy and Marine Corps' Desperate Defense of the Philippines.For a naval history book, published by the U.S. Naval Institute Press, Gordon's book contains some odd misspellings or typographical errors. Among which: the gunboat, USS ASHEVILLE is recurrently spelled as ASHVILLE. It, and it's successor class (PGM-84), were named for the North Carolina city of Asheville. Another strange one is references to U.S. Coast and Geodeytic Survey ships. It's Coast and Geodetic Survey. Sloppy work for the Naval Institute.
Shame to hear that MR9, its always disappointing to come across such errors in a book, especially from a established and specialist publisher.
I finished my second theme book; Line of Fire which covers the Japanese invasion and occupation of Rabaul and provides the details on a sad incident involving an Australian family caught on the island at the time of the invasion. My review for those interested:
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
I found this information of interest, taken from the book; The Sword Behind the Shield for the period of 25-27 January 1945 during the German offensives to relieve Budapest:" ... Also, why was only 16% of the armoured fighting vehicles of the IV. SS-Panzerkorps in combat-ready condition? The answer to this second question can be found in a German document, seized by the Soviets, which states:
'Because of the very limited amounts of salvaging vehicles the swift towing of damaged tanks and assault guns to the repairing workshops was extremely difficult. Because of this, the combat capability of the armoured units was decreasing'."
One of the major saving graces of the Heer on the Eastern Front was its ability to recover and repair their damaged tanks for their armoured forces. It seems towards the end of the war they were losing that vital ability.
by Norbert Szamveber
Another account from my book in regards to the fighting during 25-27 January as the Russians start their counter-offensive:"The SS-Panzergrenadiere entered into combat with the armoured fighting vehicles using Panzerfausts and mines and soon knocked out a number of tanks. The commander of the battalion, Hauptsturmfuhrer Fritz Vogt who was only 27 years old, knocked out three tanks by himself - with Panzerfausts."
Details of Fritz Vogt:
http://ww2images.blogspot.com.au/2012...
http://en.ww2awards.com/person/14051
From John Gordon's Fighting for MacArthur: The Navy and Marine Corps' Desperate Defense of the Philippines.The defense of Corregidor saw the creation of one of the most unusual organizations in U.S. Marine Corps history. The day Bataan fell, the 4th Battalion of the 4th Marines was established. It consisted of four companies totaling 28 officers and 275 enlisted personnel. Of that total, one officer was USMC and nine were U.S. Army. There were five Marine NCOs and two Army sergeants -- all the rest of the battalion were sailors of the U.S. Navy. Most hadn't fired a rifle since boot camp.
Interesting composition, I bet the NCO's were pulling their hair out when dealing with the sailors :)
THE WORLD WAR TWO GROUP
Books mentioned in this topic
D DAY Through German Eyes - The Hidden Story of June 6th 1944 (other topics)D DAY Through German Eyes - The Hidden Story of June 6th 1944 (other topics)
Firestorm Hamburg: The Facts Surrounding the Destruction of a German City, 1943 (other topics)
Battle of Hamburg: Allied Bomber Forces Against a German City in 1943 (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Holger Eckhertz (other topics)Holger Eckhertz (other topics)
Martin Caidin (other topics)
Keith Lowe (other topics)
Norbert Számvéber (other topics)
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"The 570. Pionier-Kompanie 'Taifun' was also received by the III. Panzerkorps. This Motorised engineer unit fought with extraordinary equipment. The Pioniere were primarily trained for close quarters combat and attacking pillboxes and bunkers; they had a special gas mixture containing 80% carbon-monoxide and 20% ethylene which they blew into underground spaces or bunkers and then ignited it electrically or otherwise. The unit got its name 'Taifun' after the firestorm it usually caused."