World, Writing, Wealth discussion
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February 2017 group read discussion: BE FIЯ$T OЯ BE DEAD #BOM_Feb_17
Ian wrote: "My take on Misha's character was that Misha was a cold heartless bastard interested only in making money in great chunks, and lesser roaches will be stamped on. His problem now is, Emil is more likely to see Misha as a roach. But since Emil is the same sort of person, and not exceptionally friendly in chapter 1, this is unwelcome news, but not exactly a shock.Nik may be amused at that interpretation ????..."
That's a fair description -:) Misha is light years away from being a saint, however he does have a struggling personality and (I hope) some redeeming qualities. He fights for himself, valuing money above all, because that's how the world is in his perception, yet he sees the flaws of a system and is willing to take risks for some 'greater good'. For some he'll remain an anti-hero throughout, maybe for some others - he'll come through a little better -:)
Kent wrote: "The "fair" oligarch as opposed to the ruthless one.."Exactly what I had in mind -:)
Kent wrote: "I just wasn't convinced that Misha would be caught hook, line, and sinker so easily by Emil. Misha didn't get to where he was by being naive.
That's a fair comment and you are probably right that the 'betrayal part' may benefit from additional build-up...
To a degree though - the naivety in relations with foreign businessmen was (and maybe still is) - present. It all looks so shining and pristine from afar, that many locals in Ukraine and Russia were sometimes truly surprised to discover some things abroad that were rotten, when they embarked global interaction. Very shrewd, but sometimes - still naive -:)
Kent wrote: "Interesting take. I felt that up to this point, Misha seemed more likeable than reprehensible. The "fair" oligarch as opposed to the ruthless one. Therefore, I should probably have felt a bit bad f..."it was a surprise that it happened so quickly yet it was foreshadowed. that was effective. more problematic is why Misha exposed his true feelings back at the chateau? he should've been a little more wise--less naive, as Kent stated.
however, Misha's character shows through in his meandering, drug-induced conversation with Emile about economics (obviously, author insertion, if you know the author--but hey it's not unusual ^_- ).
do i "like" Misha? he's the anti-hero with his realistic flaws and has that stoic sense of humor that one sees in thrillers. he keeps my interest--that's good enough.
Nik wrote: "To a degree though - the naivety in relations with foreign businessmen was (and maybe still is) - present... "Great point. The reverse of the situation with western business people going to Ukraine and Russia that you describe later in the book.
Nik, is there anything specific you'd like our opinion on from the first 7 chapters?
Alex G wrote: "do i "like" Misha? he's the anti-hero with his realistic flaws and has that stoic sense of humor that one sees in thrillers. he keeps my interest--that's good enough."Indeed!
Kent wrote: "Nik, is there anything specific you'd like our opinion on from the first 7 chapters? ..."You've provided such an elaborate feedback in private already, so I can hardly ask for anything else -:)
However, maybe some thoughts on a guest-star idea. It must be a little confusing to have an inlay, done in a different writing style, and interrupting a bit a differently - paced flow, but whether - you think an idea has a potential?
It has potential. But I think it's important that the guest chapter be written from the guest author's character's POV. That way, the differences in voice, pace, and style are normal, even expected. It would also be nice to give the guest character a larger role in the plot. That would eliminate the gimmick side of it.
Kent wrote: "It has potential. But I think it's important that the guest chapter be written from the guest author's character's POV. That way, the differences in voice, pace, and style are normal, even expected..."Cool, thanks - definitely good ideas for smoother implementation!
I found the change of style abrupt, and in my opinion it might have been better if that had been written from a different character's POV. But if you do that, you have to keep it up through the novel.
This is a little off-topic, but the question I have to ask is, how many people are actually participating in this BOM? For my book in January, I know Alex read it, probably because since this concept was his idea he felt he had to, and because he felt he had to he probably took it when under normal circumstances he wouldn't. He didn't like it, which meant the one review was not an asset. In this month, I know I am reading it, as are Kent and Alex, but is anyone else? If not, do we want to continue? I have put this here because it is the only way to find out how many people are following this BOM.
i'm in- just haven't had much time this past week. i plan to start in the next few days.
Ian wrote: "This is a little off-topic, but the question I have to ask is, how many people are actually participating in this BOM? For my book in January, I know Alex read it, probably because since this conce..."That is a valid question. So, Mike is in, which makes 4.
This is an experiment. In our initial post about doing BOMs, we stated:
"The mods would select books for the group reads with the dual goal of increasing exposure for member authors and participation amongst the membership."We are open to suggestions and further discussion. If you have recommendations on how to improve it or whether to discontinue it, then please feel free to start a new thread.
Ian wrote: "If not, do we want to continue? I have put this here because it is the only way to find out how many people are following this BOM...."It's still a beta-BoM -:) We just started, as an experiment of a sort, with Tara 'sacrificing' her book to pioneer... -:)
Not sure, we can expect tremendous attention immediately, but tentatively it might pick up. What to do next? As politicians say: all options are on the table..
I'll start a new thread.
5 with me...I'm 15% in!
Thanks for your interest too, Mike and Eldon!
I'm reading it for what that's worth. Should get it finished in a few days. I'm ambivalent so far …
Roughseasinthemed wrote: "I'm reading it for what that's worth. Should get it finished in a few days. I'm ambivalent so far …"Cool, thanks for your interest! Looking forward to any critique you might have -:)
Nik wrote: "Roughseasinthemed wrote: "I'm reading it for what that's worth. Should get it finished in a few days. I'm ambivalent so far …"Cool, thanks for your interest! Looking forward to any critique you m..."
It's more of a macho guy's story.
We can start discussing 2/3 of the story openly now. At first I thought that Misha was TSTL wanting to get together w/Giselle, but then women and infidelity are his Achilles heel. Although he should've been a little smarter about how to use the internet. The 7's almost omniscient cyber presence is A litttle hand-wavy. Even my daughter said that Misha should've used Tor.
Alex G wrote: "It's more of a macho guy's story."Whether or not this is a macho guy's story, it should still grab your interest or else something needs to be fixed.
Right now I'm about 30% through the book and my initial thoughts on it are that the beginning needs work. For the first 20% I had no clue what the story was even going to be about. It seemed all that was going on was drinking, sex, and partying.
While I understand that the attempt here is to portray the lifestyle of an oligarch I also know that every author needs to give the reader a hook before trying to reel them in. There's lots of interesting things going on in the story now and I'm enjoying it but...the beginning is just too slow in my opinion.
Alex G wrote: "Even my daughter said that Misha should've used Tor...."She's right. Hope though she's a 'blind' consultant, for the book contains some adult content -:)
Alex G wrote: "then women and infidelity are his Achilles heel..."And it might be a characterizing pattern for certain wealthy men from that part of the globe...
It was around Giselle that I thought Misha started to become really unbelievable. He as even warned not to use the internet. But I also started to think from the response time that the 7 were starting to get ridiculously omniscient. You can't put an operation of that complexity together just anywhere that fast. For me, the problem is the tension is generated for the sake of the story, and not realistically, which means I don't really feel it. Maybe you can get away with it once, but this continues through the rest of the book.
It's more of a macho guy's storyJeez Alex! Sexist or what?! Don't go there.
@ NikSo far,I think some of the dialogue could do with work, it sounds a bit simplistic.
The whole party scene in Ibiza works well, but the money arms aspect seems too fast and too confused.
There are some basic errors but I guess that's due to English not being your first language, although it's hellish impressive for someone who isn't English-speaking first. More than I could do.
Thanks, Roughseasinthemed! Two editors had a go over the text, too bad the errors are still there. They are mine, undeniable, however hoped the editors would weed them out -:)
Two editors?!Actually, if you had two, they are their errors as well. And too many :(
When I've finished I'll try and remember to pm you. I'm a third or so through.
Thanks! I'll really appreciate anything you'd remember, however I don't expect a systemized report, of course, so it won't detract from the story (assuming it might be a little enjoyable -:))
I did like the guest chapter. Thought that was innovative and well written. Nice idea.
Roughseasinthemed wrote: "It's more of a macho guy's storyJeez Alex! Sexist or what?! Don't go there."
I apologize for that. I read some reviews by women that women were not portrayed well in this story and so made a blanket assumption with regard to your post.
finished! suffice it to say that i almost threw my kindle across the room.5 more days (the 24th) until we can commence an open discussion of the full book.
Alex G wrote: "finished! suffice it to say that i almost threw my kindle across the room.5 more days (the 24th) until we can commence an open discussion of the full book."
O-ho?! I can only say that the book wasn't designed to inflict any damage to tangible assets, reading devices among them -:)
I'm going to be offline until next weekend (ie Sunday) but I'll join in then.If Nik – or anyone else – has discussion points or questions to think about in the meantime, that would be good.
Is Dmytro Firtash the prototype for Misha or one of the Magnificent 7?An Austrian court has ruled that one of Ukraine's richest men, Dmytro Firtash, can be extradited to the US to face corruption charges.
Ukraine oligarch Dmytro Firtash faces extradition to US
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europ...
Isn't that the whole point? The line between Misha and the M7 is very blurry grey to say the least.
There was no specific prototype, yet I tried to show some of the 'popular' tricks, schemes, scams and shenanigans, so parts of Misha's life or behavior can be representative for this or that oligarch... Firtash case is interesting for there is only a very distant alleged connection to the US through banks (?). As far as I understand he (a Ukrainian businessman) is being incriminated with alleged bribery (or something similar) of Indian officials -:) That surely forms a tremendous concern for the US.
So, how about that ending? I assume another book is coming?
So what was the point of Aidan Snow in this story? I never figured that out...
One of the things that puzzled me abut the story was the total inactivity of external forces. You have what is almost a significant military-style attack on a castle in Switzerland, but the authorities have no response whatsoever. The 7 take over a major burrowing piece of equipment which, from what I have noted from the construction of a tunnel here, requires a continual stream of trucks to take away the rubble, but nobody seems to notice, or care. I get the Ukrainian authorities are corrupt, but if they are going to be that corrupt, surely you need some scene to show how this feat was pulled off. I also did not see the point of the last scene - Arthur's murder had no point because it got nowhere, we had no scene to show how it was pulled off, and Misha collapsing into darkness for no apparent reason is hardly an ending in the classical way. You really needed some scene to explain WHY these things happened. Like Eldon, I simply had no idea about Aidan Snow.
Eldon wrote: "So what was the point of Aidan Snow in this story? I never figured that out..."i believe that Nik acknowledged it as a marketing technique. it works insofar as a minor character who comes in and saves the MC from a humiliating defeat.
Kent wrote: "So, how about that ending? I assume another book is coming?"The confrontation came to its resolution, so I felt I'd fulfilled my obligation to conclude this specific plot, as of Misha's fate - yeah there is an opening for the next one. Whether I'll write it? Good question. Don't know. I have the stories, but I'm not sure I'm the best fit to tell/write them -:)
Maybe I needed to have 3 books written to realize that my writing style and stuff won't be too appealing to a broad audience. So, I'm glad that I have Oligarch story out, but at this stage I'm hesitant whether to continue..
Eldon wrote: "So what was the point of Aidan Snow in this story? I never figured that out..."Mostly for a gimmick, fun and innovation. Same as guest star in TV shows and series..
For Alex Shaw - it gives an opportunity to introduce his main hero in a neighboring niche and to present his style, so whoever liked his piece (like RoughSeasInTheMed, for example) may try his other books.
For me it was fun to try to tie it in (although it seems I haven't succeeded in doing it seamlessly) and having another popular name as a contributing author on Amazon - gives a little bit more exposure, especially in UK ..
Thought that it might be a little confusing, but assumed it was worth a try. On the downside, it slowed a little the development, as one chapter of debauchery was probably sufficient.
Nik, are you saying that Snow was one of Shaw's characters? If so, for me as a piece of marketing for Shaw it was a flop because I never picked that up.
Right on the first page after the cover I mention that I'm hosting his guest star character Aidan Snow -:)Sure, some people don't like it. It's expected and I'm cool with it, while some others seem to enjoy it. It's not universally attractive -:)
Nevertheless, I wanted to try it, so I did and I'm very grateful to Alex Shaw for his selfless readiness to participate, for his time and effort
Nik wrote: "The confrontation came to its resolution, so I felt I'd fulfilled my obligation to conclude this specific plot, as of Mish..."I feel like you owe us another book after that ending. :)
M7 seems to be above the law in every country it operates in, so I'm not all that surprised that there was no involvement by the respective authorities.
Nik, I do have one other question:
How do you feel this book compares to your previous two in the series in terms of quality?
World, Writing, Wealth
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His brief appearance is kind of like James Bond joining your baccarat game, saving your life, and then continuing on his mission.