All's Fair re-read challenge: Fair Play

[Loretta]

"Trust this, you go in there without backup and I will have that place swarming with cops before you can say green juice tastes like grass."

That is such a good line I'm breathless. :)

[Johanna]

Josh wrote: "One of the reasons I love the character of Roland is because he is so difficult. He is admirable in many ways, and infuriating in others. And it is possible to love someone so dearly even when you disagree with so much of what makes them...them."

Yes! And this message, right here, is one of the reasons I love this series so much.

[Trio]

Josh wrote: "Trio wrote: ".Because you've been thinking about the characters for weeks on end.

I know how you feel

[Jordan]

I think his arrogance is what annoys me most about Rolland, now you mention it. His thinking that he's always right, and used to being right. That just works to make the other annoying bits even more annoying. Lol.

[Trio]

yeah, and how long did Roland not speak to his own son after Elliot chose his career? and it took his wife's death to bring them together again. was it Elliot who initiated contact then anyway?

[Karen]

I'm at about 60% with my re-read (3rd time?) with audiobook (2nd time?) and enjoying the comments here and in the Fair Game discussion.

I'm taking this reading fairly slowly, savoring, taking breaks with other stories. It's not confusing for me since I "know" the story, and I often read this way of late, dipping into one story then another. But I'm finding this reading of Fair Play so much richer than I remembered. There's a lot going on, lots of detail, and none of it gratuitous. It is quite a feat, as others have mentioned.

I'm one who does understand Elliot's hurt over Tucker holding back information. More on that later, after I finish this round. :)

[Kim]

Yes I did wonder if Elliot s mother hadn't died how long it would have been before Roland would have started talking to him again...I have faith that Elliot s mum would always support him and I hope she kicked Roland's ass...a lot.

[Josh]

Trio wrote: "Josh wrote: "Trio wrote: ".Because you've been thinking about the characters for weeks on end.

I know how you feel "

:-D

[Josh]

Trio wrote: "yeah, and how long did Roland not speak to his own son after Elliot chose his career? and it took his wife's death to bring them together again. was it Elliot who initiated contact then anyway?"

I think Roland would have to contact Elliot, and I think the tragedy would shock him out of his hurt and pridefulness. It would make him put Elliot's needs first because it would jolt him into remembering that Elliot was his son and not an adult adversary.

[Josh]

Mymymble wrote: "Trio wrote: "yeah, and how long did Roland not speak to his own son after Elliot chose his career? and it took his wife's death to bring them together again. was it Elliot who initiated contact the..."

My dad's family is like that, which makes my dad's refusal -- really inability -- to stay at war with loved ones more remarkable. He really is a very irascible personality, but he doesn't hold grudges. But his aunts and uncles went years without talking to each other -- and even without talking to their children in some cases.

My sisters and I have had bitter (and often the worst fights were over creative differences, of all things!) fights. But the truth is, I miss them too much to ever stay angry for long. Although I had more energy for it when I was younger.

Now I see how really stupid that kind of stubbornness is.

[Teal]

Isn't it amazing how someone who totally overthrows his family's expectations, hopes, and traditions to strike out on his own path can later be stunned and horrified when his own child does the exact same thing? I think you've nicely captured a real-life phenomenon here, Josh.

[Jordan]

The thing is, every parent wants their kids to be just like them, and kids so rarely are mirror images of their parents. It doesn't matter if my Dad's into trains as a hobby and I'm into wilderness survival as a hobby, or if my parents were not born with a disability and I was. There's always something very different from one generation to another. But parents either don't see it, or don't want to. I feel like it's only recently, in the past few decades, that parents have loosened up to let their kids grow up to be what the kid wants, you know?

Anyway, the point is that Rolland didn't pick up on this fact either.

[Teal]

Yeah, but I think it takes a stunning level of -- for lack of a better word, hypocrisy -- to rebel against everything your family stands for, and yet be horrified when your kid does the same to you.

[Teal]

Oops, how could I forget? ;)

[Loretta]

Jordan wrote: "The thing is, every parent wants their kids to be just like them, and kids so rarely are mirror images of their parents. It doesn't matter if my Dad's into trains as a hobby and I'm into wilderness..."

I think he realized it when he was writing the ending of his book. One of the concluding paragraphs:

You can't fill the heads of your children with ideals like equality, justice, liberty and peace, convince them those are the things worth fighting for, and then expect them not to take up arms to defend what they believe in. And by "take up arms," I mean fight in the ways that seem most effect to them. Even fight you, if they have to. That's something I've had to come to terms with in my own life.

[Jordan]

Ah, yes, you're right.

[Loretta]

Not that the realization kept him from giving Elliot a hard time.

[Teal]

Josh wrote: "[Roland] does make that effort at the end of the book -- as righteous as he believes his anger is, he does not want another lengthy impasse with Elliot, does not want Elliot to walk away believing that he hates him or blames him."

Between that and the excerpt from his book that Loretta quoted above, I guess I should consider Roland as having redeemed himself. He's still an arrogant SOB, but his love for Elliot has forced him to become a wiser person, maybe even a better person.

[Jordan]

Funny thing, when I started up the audiobook on my way into work this morning, I was only a few sentences away from Eliot reading that passage. Perfect timing!

[Josh]

Teal wrote: "Yeah, but I think it takes a stunning level of -- for lack of a better word, hypocrisy -- to rebel against everything your family stands for, and yet be horrified when your kid does the same to you."

I suppose so. But it's so human. ;-)

Plus, in this case I think the fact that Roland did have an especially ugly and dangerous relationship with the FBI made Elliot's choice all the more difficult.

[Josh]

And given Roland's very difficult relationship with the FBI, Elliot's own choices are interesting.

But Elliot is definitely an overachiever, so if law enforcement was his goal, he would naturally aim for the best and most prestigious organization.

[Teal]

Josh wrote: "I suppose so. But it's so human. ;-)

It sure is. And yet, somehow, it never ceases to amaze me that parents can be stunned -- gobsmacked -- flat-out astounded -- that their children aren’t their clones. Guess I’m the only one who marvels at that particular human foible...?

It does make Elliot’s career choice look like a premeditated poke in the eye to his father. If Roland’s own father was alive when it happened, I bet he enjoyed seeing Roland get a taste of his own medicine. ;)

[Antonella]

Just to say that I looked for it in my Kindle yesterday night and didn't find it. Then today I searched my computer and I didn't find it either! I was already getting upset, but then I looked again and it was on my Kindle. So I'll start rereading this evening.

[Elena]

I just listened to the meeting between Elliot and MacAuley, the conservative blogger. Has anyone else had the impression that it won’t be the last we’ll see of him?

[Kim]

Yes I thought at the time MacAuley was rather creepy and he seemed a bit fixated on Elliot, not that I blamed him for that.

[Teal]

At the end of the first book, I was disappointed that Elliot wouldn't rejoin the FBI. At the end of the second book, I was disappointed again. And on the re-read, I realized why: all throughout there are little hints of Elliot's dissatisfaction with his new career, in thoughts that he cuts off before he fully articulates them. And finally, in his conversation with MacAuley, there's this:

"I don't want to be interviewed. I don't need or want that attention. I teach history now."

MacAuley said quietly, sympathetically, "That must be very difficult for you." His eyes seemed to look right inside Elliot and read the restlessness, the frustration that Elliot managed to keep hidden most of the time, even from himself.

Gee, Elliot keeping things hidden from himself -- can you imagine? ;) But no wonder I've been unhappy about him being in academia -- he's unhappy about it himself. Or if not explicitly "unhappy," something quite akin to it.

It would have been so easy to make MacAuley into a cliché, but instead he comes across as a strange and complex character.

"You might be surprised, Elliot. We have more in common than you realize."

Hmmmm... What was MacAuley thinking there? What an interesting guy. I wouldn't mind seeing more of him.

[Jordan]

Having just finished this, my question is what did Roland think he was going to do, how was he going to "handle it" with Nobby, knowing he'd killed Suzy? Was he going to find her family and tell her sister what happened? Did he feel it would be better if she didn't know? If he told her, what did he think she was going to do or want to do? I'm sure she'd want to go to the cops, horrified of the truth, and probably not caring about Nobby's age.

Sorry, his "I told you I'd handle it." Is still irritating me, a bit.

[Loretta]

Jordan wrote: "Having just finished this, my question is what did Roland think he was going to do, how was he going to "handle it" with Nobby, knowing he'd killed Suzy? Was he going to find her family and tell he..."

Well, he didn't want Nobb to go to prison so telling Suzy's family was out. I think he wanted to let Nobby know that he wasn't going to publish the book so Nobby could relax. Maybe he was going to be Father Confessor and absolve Nobby of his guilt. I think his main focus was to get Elliot out of danger. I don't think he really knew how he was going to "handle it."

[Teal]

I think Roland's version of "handling it" would be getting Nobby to stop trying to kill Elliot. And secondly, to convince him the publication of his book wouldn't be a threat, because no one else would put two and two together about Suzy's disappearance. I really don't think Roland gave a rat's ass about Suzy's family. :/

[Jordan]

You're probably right, both of you. Just makes me sad, is all. He's trying to do the right thing, but it's actually the worst thing he could be doing. :-(

[Kim]

Yes that's what bothered me the most about Roland's trying to handle the situation...
He didn't give a thought to how the family of the a teenage girl that never went. Home " after the party finished " would feel to finally know she was found.
That's what I can't quite let my dislike of Roland go.

[Trio]

I totally agree with all three of you. Josh does those characters so well, yeah? not likeable but put into situations where maybe we are supposed to give them the benefit of the doubt and they keep disappointing us over and over... love that! multi dimensional characters on many levels.

[Teal]

You’re right, Trio. I’ve been specifically thinking about Josh’s characterization skills over the last two days because of the book I’ve been reading by a new-to-me author -- a book I gave up on last night, unable to tolerate a moment more of two 40-ish guys giggling. Seriously, WTF? One owns his own business, one is CEO of a tech firm; one is bi, one passes for straight. And they're gabbling and gushing like 14-year old girls. (No insult intended, 14-year girls of the world.) The unrelenting giggles and googly eyes and near-swooning of these two supposedly adult males drove me bonkers. I don’t want to read about 40-year old men who giggle. I don’t want to read about 40-year old women who giggle, either. Please.

Last night I threw in the towel and created a new GR shelf for it called “This Is Ridiculous.” Unfortunately, a couple dozen of the other m/m books I’ve read needed to join it there.

So right now I’m appreciating Josh even more than I usually do. Even her unlikeable characters can be engaging. After all, how much time did we spend griping about Guy during the AE re-read a couple months ago? And now it’s Roland’s turn to take the heat. ;)

[Trio]

ha ha, I'll check out your shelf!

[Rosa]

Teal wrote: "You’re right, Trio. I’ve been specifically thinking about Josh’s characterization skills over the last two days because of the book I’ve been reading by a new-to-me author -- a book I gave up on la..."

I'm going to take a look at your shelf XD

[Trio]

There is nothing on that shelf I've read yet... I'm glad you have more books on your current shelf than me ;).

[Teal]

Mymymble, I didn't give Evenfall any stars, because I didn't get very far into it before giving up. When I look at someone else's shelf, I see both their ratings and my own...

I know I've got a few things on that shelf, m/m and otherwise, that some people think highly of. Taste is so subjective! But I agree that ridiculous and good are NOT necessarily exclusive. I gave 5 stars to Bone Rider, for example, because it was just so much fun, but it was definitely ridiculous too. In a good way. :)

[Teal]

Trio wrote: "I'm glad you have more books on your current shelf than me ;)."

My currently-reading shelf is a bit of an embarrassment... My excuse is that some of them are collections of short stories or essays, which I pick up only occasionally. And some of the non-fiction takes a while to work through. And apparently I also have a short attention span. But yeah... embarrassing. ;)

[Elena]

Teal wrote: "I know I've got a few things on that shelf, m/m and otherwise, that some people think highly of. Taste is so subjective! But I agree that ridiculous and good are NOT necessarily exclusive. I gave 5 stars to Bone Rider, for example, because it was just so much fun, but it was definitely ridiculous too. In a good way. :)"

Oh, yes. I have a couple of shelves specifically for books that objectively aren’t good (sometimes it’s the writing, sometimes the plot, most of the times both), but for some reason I enjoyed them so much that I couldn’t bring myself to give a low rating.
Just like there are books well written, with good plot and characters, with a lot of 5-stars reviews, that bored or annoyed me to no end or simply didn’t work.

[Trio]

teal, mine is usually like that too but I'm doing a challenge in another group where I can't have stuff on there, so for two more weeks mine is clean. I like to use it for organizing too.

[Kim]

I love Elliot but he is a very complex character and the more times you read this series you always seem to learn more, I found it fascinating that we started out with Elliot s concrete opinion of Tucker and what happened to them, and the graduate realisation that they both had been wrong about what the other was feeling and thinking.
I loved Tucker he really pushed Elliot to rethink their past.
Would love to know what Tucker was thinking at times.

[Kim]

I love the dynamics of Elliot and Tucker in the bedroom, it wasn't as evident in the first book but the second book was certainly no doubt about it.
I have a feeling Elliot didn't come right out and tell Tucker he wanted him to take control in the bedroom...you know as Elliot is such a good communicator...
I would have loved to see Tucker s reaction when he realised that this is what Elliot wanted.

[Elena]

Kim wrote: "I love the dynamics of Elliot and Tucker in the bedroom, it wasn't as evident in the first book but the second book was certainly no doubt about it.
I have a feeling Elliot didn't come right out an..."

From what I gathered, sex was the one thing in which they never had any problems. Probably because they didn't need to communicate anything in words.
It seems like it happened naturally, Tucker is dominant and Elliot more on the submissive side (in bed, of course) and they clicked from the start.
I wouldn't mind seeing Tucker's reaction as well. I would love to see pretty much anything from Tucker's perspective. :D

[K.]

Tucker asked Elliot in book one what he would like to do in bed. Someting along the lines, that this time they would do it the way Elliot likes it. So I think during the time Elliot and Tucker were not together, Tucker put lot of tought into what went wrong.

[Elena]

K. wrote: "Tucker asked Elliot in book one what he would like to do in bed. Someting along the lines, that this time they would do it the way Elliot likes it. So I think during the time Elliot and Tucker were..."

Really? I took it as Tucker asking what Elliot was in the mood for in that particular moment, not as an acknowledgment that in the past they usually did what Tucker liked.
Elliot kept repeating throughout the whole book that sex with Tucker was always great. A lot went wrong, but I never had the impression sex was one of those things.

[K.]

Elena wrote: "K. wrote: "Tucker asked Elliot in book one what he would like to do in bed. Someting along the lines, that this time they would do it the way Elliot likes it. So I think during the time Elliot and ..."

No, I think sex was great for both of them. But the way things ended for them and that comment from Tucker made me think that he developed doubts about it. That what if Elliot didn't enjoy it as much as he did. But that's just how I saw it :)

[Trio]

And Elliot was always a little insecure and nervous that he had confided such an intensely personal thing to Tucker, and worried that Tucker would give his secret away... it really must have taken so much for someone as proud as Elliot to let anyone in on this side of his personality.

[Trio]

I love this couple, and I totally agree, I would love to read anything from Tucker's pov!

[Elena]

K. wrote: "Elena wrote: "K. wrote: "Tucker asked Elliot in book one what he would like to do in bed. Someting along the lines, that this time they would do it the way Elliot likes it. So I think during the ti..."

I get it.
I think if Tucker started having doubts on that front, he got over them pretty quickly. In Fair Game Tucker seemed certain that things between them were great for both of them, he just thought, when the shooting happened, Elliot still needed more time to take their relationship at the next level.

[Elena]

Trio wrote: "And Elliot was always a little insecure and nervous that he had confided such an intensely personal thing to Tucker, and worried that Tucker would give his secret away"

I remember Elliot being worried that Tucker was using it against him right before the famous scene on the porch, and Tucker making immediately clear that it wasn't the case, but never that he was worried Tucker would give his secret away.
Were you referring to that or something else, Trio?