World, Writing, Wealth discussion
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Feminism: Needs an image makeover or what's in a name?
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Mehreen wrote: "Alex G wrote: "Humanist and feminist do not have to be mutually exclusive.On another note, the term, feminism, is a particularly western concept, in fact even more specific than that, a term that..."
If this violence is directed towards women that very much makes it a gender issue. How is this not plain? This is like saying ethnic cleansing is not about ethnicity.
Nik wrote: "How do you go about them, btw? Should there be a difference between mother and father in the family? Is chivalry that Joanne mentioned in post 10 contradictory to it?I think a lot of women certainly support equality, but still want to feel women, to be courted and stuff -:)."
It's ok to treat people differently, particularly if it's their choice - as long as you treat them all equally well.
I think it's a slippery slope to equate "equality" with "exactly the same." Certainly there are differences between men and women, but there are differences between every woman and every other woman too.
I hold open doors if there are people behind me because it's the polite thing to do. Not because they are women. I'll jump in front and open the door for anyone with a pram or a cane or carrying a bunch of bags too, because that's kind and it's good to be kind when you can. Chivalry needn't have anything to do with gender either.
Or to take up romance, as you mentioned, for sure, there are a lot of women who appreciate being courted. My younger daughter is a total romantic, and would swoon over any of the usual romance tropes - which is cute because she's a 6' tall Viking type and hardly a delicate flower, so nobody thinks to treat her that way, even though she'd love it.
But there's plenty like her older sister (who is kind of petite, relatively, for Sweden) who find it fairly uncomfortable to be treated like a fragile little flower and would rather spend a first date whipping their date's ass at paintball, or seeing if he can handle being dragged to help at a soup kitchen for the evening (those both have really happened.)
All things being equal, both kinds, and all the ones in between should be entirely free to seek out and spend time with potential partners who appreciate them - and their choices. Because they are different people, not applying stereotypes because they are women.
Nik wrote: "From a brief look, it does look like everyone here supports gender equality as the common denominator. Can understand that some may not like the movement or think that it ignores physiological and ..."Feminism has nothing to do with women not wanting their femininity acknowledged. It has nothing to do with women hating men. It has nothing to do with women not wanting to be taken out to dinner or given flowers. It has nothing to do with chivalry. These are old stereotypes that have nothing to do with the fight for equality. Of course there are biological and physiological differences between men and women but there are biological and physiological differences between groups of men as well. It's not about that.
Marissa wrote: "FEMINISMn.
Belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes.
n.
The movement organized around this belief.
This so-called controversy, like so many others, might not exist ..."
Thank you for saying this. There is no way you can understand what feminism means and not supported.
Joanne wrote: "Also just as a,side note, I am reading a Victorian novel called Middlemarch by George Elliott. It was really written by a female writer. The book is off the beaten track for a Victotian novel and s..."That has been on my reading list for quite a while so now I really need to make time for it! Thank you :-)
Krazykiwi wrote: "Nik wrote: "How do you go about them, btw? Should there be a difference between mother and father in the family? Is chivalry that Joanne mentioned in post 10 contradictory to it?I think a lot of w..."
Awesome post :)
Joanne wrote: "Also just as a,side note, I am reading a Victorian novel called Middlemarch by George Elliott. It was really written by a female writer. The book is off the beaten track for a Victotian novel and s..."thx! added it to my long list.
Krazykiwi wrote: "It's ok to treat people differently, particularly if it's their choice - as long as you treat them all equally well. .."Gotcha.
Hope either girl gets the treatment she prefers -:)
I think feminism's done wonders to women's status, but not sure everyone's bound to adore it.. -:)I guess the question per se is based on exactly this premise..
Nik wrote: "I think feminism's done wonders to women's status, but not sure everyone's bound to adore it.. -:)I guess the question per se is based on exactly this premise.."
What, do you suppose, are some reasons one might have for not embracing feminism?
Probably various: from misunderstanding its essence and purpose to associating it with some extremes...Joanne and Mehreen seem not to be huge fans, and I guess - that's fine...
I think from the point of view of legislation and recognition, gender discrimination should be abolished, equality achieved, while in day-to-day life it's frequently different - maybe some just believe now it's down to an individual implementation ...
If I can use a really blunt metaphor, it's a bit like religion. There are a lot of people who believe in a more or less Christian God, but balk at being called Christian, or call themselves Christian but don't belong to a church, or don't want to be labelled "Episcopalian" or "Baptist", because they feel those labels have baggage.
People support the principle of equality for all - but misunderstand the baggage of the term "feminism". The irony is that if you think about where that baggage comes from, the mischaracterisation and misattribution of motive, they're from people against the idea. I'm old enough to remember male news anchors (because there were no female news anchors on NZ TV when I was a child) scoffing at women's lib protests, the talking heads on the media talking about what they saw as "hairy legged man-hating lesbians burning their bras" etc.
Well mission accomplished, if people are still, 40 years later, misunderstanding what the word even means.
As for why feminism as a term is important, we touched on it earlier - if you make it too general, the specific is lost. It's exactly like "Black lives matter". Sure all lives matter, nobody disputes that, and nobody is saying they don't. But by saying "All lives matter" the narrative immediately turns back to "Oh but this white dude got shot too..." and the actual issues (racial profiling, police violence) is lost.
Another similar case: "Not all men." Every woman on the planet is completely aware that not all men are potential rapists or about to burst into woman-targeted violence every minute of the day. The problem is enough of them are, that for most women every potential interaction with a man means you have to consider the possibility that this man might be. If not this man, maybe the next one. That is a reality that informs every day of most of our lives, even if it's often on a subconscious level. As soon as you hear "Not all men" the narrative becomes "oh the poor men who are nice! think of the men!" and the message is lost. We're not stupid, we know it's not all men, but that is not the point.
So on the one hand, yes, it's pretty clear feminism has a lot of baggage attached, it's sadly misunderstood as a term. On the other, using another term subjugates the specific in favour of the general, and I think a makeover is exactly what it needs. It needs reclaiming, the way queer has been, and gay before that. And I have no idea how to do that, other than challenging and trying to educate people who are misunderstanding it, even if that ends with them not liking me very much :)
Nik wrote: "Probably various: from misunderstanding its essence and purpose to associating it with some extremes...Joanne and Mehreen seem not to be huge fans, and I guess - that's fine...
I think from the po..."
Good explanation. But the thing is feminism is about legal/financial/economic equality and that is not about interpretation. When it comes to personal implementation/choice that has more to do with behavior prferences. Feminists don't care if men hold the door for us or not but we do care if banks deny us home loans because we're not married. We don't care if a man pays for our dinner but we care if we can't pay for dinner because of wage inequality. We don't care if misguided people portray us as angry, man-hating women out to destroy the essence of what it means to be a female. Each woman should decide what that means to her. I am an ultra romantic, happily married woman who is obsessed with shoes, handbags, rare French perfumes and Royal Doulton fine china. I am more comfortable in heels than in gym shoes and Dior #109 is the shade of red lipstick that was made for me. And I am 100% a feminist!! my best friend in Wisconsin doesn't care for men much at all. She is a family physician and could care less about lipstick or fashion. She collects Porsches and restores them on the weekends. And she is 100% a feminist!!
Tara wrote: "And I am 100% a feminist!! .."Brava!
Krazykiwi wrote: "If I can use a really blunt metaphor, it's a bit like religion. There are a lot of people who believe in a more or less Christian God, but balk at being called Christian, or call themselves Chris..."
I wish I could turn your entire comment into a T-shirt! It is not the term feminism that needs to change it is attitudes that need to change.
In order to make my point about using words and labels, have you seen the "run like a girl" video? You might be able to find it on Youtube. In this video, a boy is asked to run like a girl. He runs all awkward and prissy. Then the girl is asked to run like a girl and she runs in place very strong and poised looking. Posting those kinds of things without labeling them "feminism" but "girl empowering" or something else is what I am talking about. I think starting with the youth is a great idea in general.
Joanne wrote: "In order to make my point about using words and labels, have you seen the "run like a girl" video? You might be able to find it on Youtube. In this video, a boy is asked to run like a girl. He runs..."That's the thing, though. What you described is all about shattering stereotypes and gender myths and empowering girls and I strongly support that, but feminism is about equality in a legal, institutionalized sense. I think the nearly equal legal footing women enjoy because of the hard work done by feminists in the past have actually given us the freedom to worry about trivialities like labels. But the work is not done and if we distort the purpose and meaning of what feminism is we will actually lose ground.
Tara wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Tara wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Tara wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Tara wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "I support and condone that in the extreme. And if her point is that women can be enjoy freedom...""Equality" is not plain simple. There is a lot to it than meets the eye.
Krazykiwi wrote: "If I can use a really blunt metaphor, it's a bit like religion. There are a lot of people who believe in a more or less Christian God, but balk at being called Christian, or call themselves Chris..."
Great post that sums up the whole subject nicely.
On another note, the term, feminism, is a particularly western concept, in fact even more specific than that, a term that originated in ..."
Similar to the word environmentalism it is just an easy way to identify a target concern.