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Feminism: Needs an image makeover or what's in a name?
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Tara Woods Turner
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Jan 13, 2017 06:45AM
Lately there's been a trend for feminists of both genders, to balk at the label because they feel it's divisive. Valid point or misguided distraction from the real issues?
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Tara wrote: "Lately there's been a trend for feminists of both genders, to balk at the label because they feel it's divisive. Valid point or misguided distraction from the real issues?"Labelling anything often gives an impression of something being different. I never liked the idea of feminism. Why can't one declare independence by not attracting attention?
Mehreen wrote: "Tara wrote: "Lately there's been a trend for feminists of both genders, to balk at the label because they feel it's divisive. Valid point or misguided distraction from the real issues?"Labelling ..."
Feminism isn't about declaring independence but about equal rights. Inequality requires a lot of attention.
Don't think the name is the problem and there always will be someone who's unhappy. The essence is that its aim is equality (cool), while of chauvinism - superiority (uncool). Who knows maybe one day feminism may be associated with superiority too, as supposedly there were matriarchies before -:)It maybe irritating sometimes, but I guess it serves its purpose and has successes in dealing with gender inequality.
I just believe that slogans are good for pursuing some common goal, but that shouldn't substitute personal ambition despite existing or perceived inequalities..
For example, politics is stereotyped primarily men's biz, but Thatcher, Merkel, May or Bhutto (in Muslim society no less!) proved - not only...
Nik wrote: "Don't think the name is the problem and there always will be someone who's unhappy. The essence is that its aim is equality (cool), while of chauvinism - superiority (uncool). Who knows maybe one d..."You nailed it! Brilliant!
I remember being little and wondering what Women's Lib was and why there were so many jokes about women burning their bras... Feminists in the early 70s were vilified and ridiculed by many, but I remember it as a time where comments and behaviour, that are now considered blatantly sexist, were normal and passed without censure. In this respect, society has changed enormously. I don't think that women should forget the uphill battle that women faced in the 70s; there are still areas that require significant improvement, such as the stick insect models in the media that promote unhealthy body images amongst the young.
There are plenty of people out there who make the claim that "Political Correctness" is terrible and has ruined everything. There are also those who claim that both feminism and anti-racism have been tainted in the modern age by radicalism, and that it USED to be okay. Personally, I think this is barely sugar-coated sexism and racism parading around as moral indignation.Personally, I think that sexism and racism have become acceptable and even mainstream again, and that this false rhetoric of it being okay in the past, but bad today, is an obvious attempt to hide modern bigotry. And I think that blaming Political Correctness for anything is hypocrisy, seeing as how every racist statement I hear these days is always followed by "but you can't say that, because of the PC thugs!"
I think if people were truly concerned about divisiveness, they might check their privilege and phony sense of outrage at the door and understand that these issues haven't been "solved", and that discrimination is still out there.
Matthew wrote: "There are plenty of people out there who make the claim that "Political Correctness" is terrible and has ruined everything. There are also those who claim that both feminism and anti-racism have be..."I wish GR had a like button! Nothing works like a straw man. Distract from the real issues by painting oneself as the victim of political correctness - always at the expense of 'free speech' of course lol.
Jen Pattison wrote: "I remember being little and wondering what Women's Lib was and why there were so many jokes about women burning their bras... Feminists in the early 70s were vilified and ridiculed by many, but I r..."Jen - great perspective and you reminded me of some of the strides feminism has made that I'd almost forgotten about!
I think that there does need to be a new word for feminism. It leads some including people like me to think back to some of the negative images of bra burning which were previously mentioned. I think just plain equality is a simple enough word which says volumes. That said, I am not against chivalry. My husband opens doors for both men and women. Its not a sexist thing, its kindness. My younger son does not do it like his dad does. My son's reasoning is because "some overly feminist women get insulted by it."
Joanne wrote: "I think that there does need to be a new word for feminism. It leads some including people like me to think back to some of the negative images of bra burning which were previously mentioned. I thi..."Feminism isn't about chivalry but about equality, as you've stated. This misunderstanding is part of the problem. I do wish that it could just be about equality but women's rights would be subjugated without the differentiation, or the label. This is why feminism is not the same as humanism. So many of those harmful tropes of the past prevent some of our contemporaries from understanding feminism.
Tara wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Tara wrote: "Lately there's been a trend for feminists of both genders, to balk at the label because they feel it's divisive. Valid point or misguided distraction from the real issu..."Did feminism help? Or do women have more rights now as natural evolution?
Mehreen wrote: "Tara wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Tara wrote: "Lately there's been a trend for feminists of both genders, to balk at the label because they feel it's divisive. Valid point or misguided distraction from ..."Feminism has given us so many of the rights we enjoy today. Ceaseless protesting, lobbying and marching did what evolution was never going to do naturally.
"Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never has and it never will" - Frederick Douglas
Tara wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Tara wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Tara wrote: "Lately there's been a trend for feminists of both genders, to balk at the label because they feel it's divisive. Valid point or misguided d..."Yeah I can understand that everyone must fight for his or her rights. It won't be just handed out on a silver platter.Why is feminism in such a mess now that even feminists themselves have moved away or wanting to move away, I wonder?
Mehreen wrote: " I never liked the idea of feminism." Interesting.
What exactly do you have against equality for all genders, Mehreen? (Or, as mentioned, a humanistic view, and equal treatment for everyone - every feminist I know is pretty strongly in favour of equal treatment for all.)
Not liking the idea of feminism means you think one (or more) genders deserves better treatment than the others. Why?
As for #12, of course feminism helped. Here's an easy one: The gender wage gap still exists, but it's slowly closing. Ask yourself honestly: Would that have happened, in a period of less than full employment, without people actively raising the question and without a dimension of legislative support based on that activism?
Think about how domestic violence was treated 50 years ago. How recently was marital rape still legal? Sexual harassment?
What evolution could have brought about the massive changes in societal attitudes other than women bringing these issues into the light, and forcing a change? A cultural hegemony doesn't give up it's power out of the goodness of it's heart, why on earth would it.
The lady running the local battered woman's shelter could probably not be anything other than a feminist - even if she doesn't call herself that.
It's extremely unfortunate that people equate feminism with bra-burning and equality with "men open doors for me", and ignore the very real and difficult work feminists have been doing in politics, education, academia and out there on the streets. I find it really sad that misinformation like that makes women, particularly young women, feel ashamed of the term.
Mehreen wrote: "Tara wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Tara wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Tara wrote: "Lately there's been a trend for feminists of both genders, to balk at the label because they feel it's divisive. Valid point o..."You have to say 'some' feminists. Many women today enjoy the fruits of feminist efforts of the past without being appreciative of them. Others have such a tainted understanding of feminism that they fail to articulate its merits. Lastly, extremists on both ends of the feminist agenda are rather intolerant and give the movement a bad name. In what ways can it be said that feminism is a 'mess'?
Krazykiwi wrote: "Mehreen wrote: " I never liked the idea of feminism." Interesting.
What exactly do you have against equality for all genders, Mehreen? (Or, as mentioned, a humanistic view, and equal treatment f..."
Thank. You. So. Much.
Tara wrote: "Thank. You. So. Much." You're welcome. You're much braver than me to even bring this up :)
Lastly, extremists on both ends of the feminist agenda are rather intolerant and give the movement a bad name. In what ways can it be said that feminism is a 'mess'?
This is an important point. Radicals on the ends of the spectrum of every movement, from civil rights to religion and everything in between, are exactly those things. But they are always the (unfortunately noisy) minority.
Krazykiwi wrote: "Tara wrote: "Thank. You. So. Much." You're welcome. You're much braver than me to even bring this up :)
Lastly, extremists on both ends of the feminist agenda are rather intolerant and give the ..."
You're making so many major observations!
Krazykiwi wrote: "Mehreen wrote: " I never liked the idea of feminism." Interesting.
What exactly do you have against equality for all genders, Mehreen? (Or, as mentioned, a humanistic view, and equal treatment f..."
Interesting indeed! In some parts of the world women not only enjoy equality but a lot more freedom than men. In ancient times women used to rule over men and so on long before the inception of feminism. There was something fundamentally wrong in the western society which had to give rise to feminism, equal rights and so on. That's what's interesting!
Mehreen wrote: "Krazykiwi wrote: "Mehreen wrote: " I never liked the idea of feminism." Interesting.
What exactly do you have against equality for all genders, Mehreen? (Or, as mentioned, a humanistic view, and..."
Patriarchy and inequality are not American, nor do women enjoy equality the world over. Far from it. But the problem remains that some very, very distorted views of feminism exist that are harmful to women everywhere.
Tara wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Krazykiwi wrote: "Mehreen wrote: " I never liked the idea of feminism." Interesting.
What exactly do you have against equality for all genders, Mehreen? (Or, as mentioned, a huma..."
In some parts of the world and in ancient societies, women wore the pants, not men. They have understood feminism like one one else. It takes a distorted view in the hands of some women who not only misunderstand it but totally misapply as well. More so in the USA and the West in general.
Mehreen wrote: "They have understood feminism like one one else.It is abundantly clear Mehreen, that you don't understand feminism at all.
One gender "wearing the pants" is neither equality nor has it got anything to do with feminism.
Also you still didn't answer my question: Why do you think any gender inherently deserves more rights or better treatment than any other?
Krazykiwi wrote: "Tara wrote: "Thank. You. So. Much." You're welcome. You're much braver than me to even bring this up :)
Lastly, extremists on both ends of the feminist agenda are rather intolerant and give the ..."
Feminism has lost its way. You want to discuss an issue that's fine. But this is no platform for personal attacks.
Stating that you don't understand a word is hardly a personal attack. It's a flat out statement of fact, and I would say it to anyone making your mistake.Feminism does not mean women in a superior position to men. Yet you continue to claim it does.
So again: Why do you believe any gender inherently deserves more rights or better treatment than any other?
Krazykiwi wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "They have understood feminism like one one else.It is abundantly clear Mehreen, that you don't understand feminism at all.
One gender "wearing the pants" is neither equality nor..."
I don't think any gender deserves more rights. That's not the issue. I am saying that in some cultures women enjoy equal rights and power just as men. They don't even have any issues with gender. I find this problem more in the West. If you're an example of a feminist, than God help us all women. LOl.
Mehreen wrote: "Krazykiwi wrote: "Tara wrote: "Thank. You. So. Much." You're welcome. You're much braver than me to even bring this up :)
Lastly, extremists on both ends of the feminist agenda are rather intole..."
I don't want you to feel attacked. We are simply exploring and challenging beliefs. You seem to be implying that Western expectations of gender equality are somehow the problem. I don't understand this view.
Krazykiwi wrote: "Stating that you don't understand a word is hardly a personal attack. It's a flat out statement of fact, and I would say it to anyone making your mistake.Feminism does not mean women in a superio..."
The mistake is not mine. Perhaps yours since you are the one who have pointed that I am wrong. And what's your definition of feminism if I may ask?
" if you are an example of a feminist then God help us song "This qualifies as a personal comment. Let's remain civil.
Tara wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Krazykiwi wrote: "Tara wrote: "Thank. You. So. Much." You're welcome. You're much braver than me to even bring this up :)
Lastly, extremists on both ends of the feminist agenda a..."
Does feminism have different interpretations? Men and women are equal. Equal jobs, rights, freedom. Is there anything else? Am I missing something? Is the Western expectation any different?
Tara wrote: "" if you are an example of a feminist then God help us song "This qualifies as a personal comment. Let's remain civil."
Let's get this sorted from the person who started it. It did not start this on my end. And if this attacks continue, I will leave this discussion.
Mehreen wrote: "Krazykiwi wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "They have understood feminism like one one else.It is abundantly clear Mehreen, that you don't understand feminism at all.
One gender "wearing the pants" is ne..."
What issues with gender do American women have? If there is inequality are American women supposed to not fight for their rights? And there are very, very few countries that value and protect both genders equally. It is 2016 and an Indian woman can still be murdered by her husband for little or no reason and with no justice for her attacker. In China a woman's reproductive rights are still not up to her. I could go on and on.
Mehreen wrote: "Tara wrote: "" if you are an example of a feminist then God help us song "This qualifies as a personal comment. Let's remain civil."
Let's get this sorted from the person who started it. It did ..."
To be fair, Krazykiwi stated her opinion that you don't understand what feminism means. You stated that if she is an example of feminism then God should help us all. Her statement dealt with your views/beliefs. Your statement dealt with her personhood. Everything is fine, let's just stay on topic.
My definition is "Equal treatment and consideration for all regardless of gender."Perhaps you prefer the Merriam-Webster definition:
"The theory of political, economic and social equality of the sexes."
Or the Collins one? "The belief and aim that women should have the same rights, power, and opportunities as men."
Cambridge? "The belief that women should be allowed the same rights, power, and opportunities as men"
Oxford? "The advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes." (ETA, I made a cut and paste error and put the Cambridge definition twice. Mea culpa.)
An encyclopedia definition? Brittanica says: "Feminism, the belief in the social, economic, and political equality of the sexes."
As you can see, they are all largely in agreement. So, for the fourth time, why are you against this?
Tara wrote: "Matthew wrote: "There are plenty of people out there who make the claim that "Political Correctness" is terrible and has ruined everything. There are also those who claim that both feminism and ant..."I know, right? Funny thing is, this is nothing new, though the current crop of angry white folks and feminist-haters seem to think it is. Bigots and sexist people have always tried to claim that those who oppose them are motivated by a hateful and spiteful agenda. It's never about "women wanting the vote", its about "women want to destroy all barriers between men and women". And Martin Luther King Jr. isn't fighting to repeal Segregation laws, he "hates all White people!"
Tara wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Krazykiwi wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "They have understood feminism like one one else.It is abundantly clear Mehreen, that you don't understand feminism at all.
One gender "wearing ..."
You have not taken world history or cultures where women are treated equally and enjoy every rights but not under any banner of "feminism" Something is inherently wrong in this culture that has given rise to this so much so that women go against women deny them the same rights that they have been fighting for. I was appalled that how many women thought that Hillary should not be made president. In some countries women have heads of states from time immemorial. People preferred women to be leaders than men. On the issue of domestic violence, women in many instance are the perpetrators not men.
Mehreen wrote: "Tara wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Krazykiwi wrote: "Mehreen wrote: " I never liked the idea of feminism." Interesting.
What exactly do you have against equality for all genders, Mehreen? (Or, as ment..."
In what way has feminism been distorted in the USA and the West? And in which parts of the world are the women enjoying more freedom and rights? Because last I checked, the status of women around in the world is quite deplorable. And it is the developed nations - predominantly in the West - where their status as equal citizens is guaranteed by law.
Matthew wrote: "Tara wrote: "Matthew wrote: "There are plenty of people out there who make the claim that "Political Correctness" is terrible and has ruined everything. There are also those who claim that both fem..."Smokescreen special with a side of dog whistle, please. Similar to tactics used to turn anti-police brutality protesters into roving bands of cop hating thugs who hate A'Murrica. In the meanwhile the big business machines who *realy* have their heels on the throats of society are laughing all the way to the steps of their private jets. The trope of the man-hating, frothing feminist is so exhausting.
Mehreen wrote: "Tara wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Krazykiwi wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "They have understood feminism like one one else.It is abundantly clear Mehreen, that you don't understand feminism at all.
One gen..."
Just because you're a woman doesn't mean you're not a feminist if you don't vote for the female candidate. How is this feminism's fault? Many women thought Clinton was less than honest and too wedded to corporatations to get their vote. The fact that they can vote at all is because of feminists.
Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Tara wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Krazykiwi wrote: "Mehreen wrote: " I never liked the idea of feminism." Interesting.
What exactly do you have against equality for all genders, Mehre..."
Tribal women enjoy a lot more rights. Women in Pagan cultures enjoy a lot more rights. It is inherent in their culture. They don't think that it is odd. This could be a great ethnographic research, not ethnocentric, per say. A quick google search won't do the job.
Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Tara wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Krazykiwi wrote: "Mehreen wrote: " I never liked the idea of feminism." Interesting.
What exactly do you have against equality for al..."
Don't all women everywhere deserve the same equality and human dignity as those women enjoy?
Tara wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Tara wrote: "" if you are an example of a feminist then God help us song "This qualifies as a personal comment. Let's remain civil."
Let's get this sorted from the person who sta..."
No. Her statement deals with calling people "noisy minority". This has nothing to do with this discussion on feminism. Why would I not understand feminism? What is there not to understand?
Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Tara wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Krazykiwi wrote: "Mehreen wrote: " I never liked the idea of feminism." Interesting.
What exactly do you have against equality for al..."
Tribal women where? And which pagan cultures? Because as a historian, I can tell you this sounds like a convenient generalization. Matriarchal or matrilineal cultures have existed, but they were more of an exception than the rule. And their existence hardly demonstrates a distortion on behalf of feminists in the West. Those movements arose due to a lack of inequality and patriarchy.
Tara wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Tara wrote: "Matthew wrote: "There are plenty of people out there who make the claim that "Political Correctness" is terrible and has ruined everything. There are also those who cla..."RIGHT??? If I hear someone say "what about black-on-black violence?" again, in response to a police shooting, I swear I will kick them in the balls! As I have grown accustomed to saying to such people "no one gives a shit about Blacks or Latinos killing each other until a cop shoots one!"
Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Tara wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Krazykiwi wrote: "Mehreen wrote: " I never liked the idea of feminism." Interesting.
What exactly do you have against..."
Do you know about the Manipuri in Sylhet? How much do you know about tribals in Chittagong Hill Tracts? There are Hundreds of them. Ethnography is one thing but ethnocentric or thin assessment is quite another.
Mehreen wrote: "Tara wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Tara wrote: "" if you are an example of a feminist then God help us song "This qualifies as a personal comment. Let's remain civil."
Let's get this sorted from the p..."
I have to respectfully disagree but will reiterate that each of us must refrain from individualized put-downs.
Matthew wrote: "Tara wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Tara wrote: "Matthew wrote: "There are plenty of people out there who make the claim that "Political Correctness" is terrible and has ruined everything. There are also ..."Those matriarchical societies arose from the basic human desire for autonomy and personal agency - the very things femnists fight for.
Mehreen wrote: "I don't think any gender deserves more rights. That's not the issue. I am saying that in some cultures women enjoy equal rights and power just as men. They don't even have any issues with gender. I find this problem more in the West. If you're an example of a feminist, than God help us all women. LOl. .."That is exactly what you said. I have provided you with several definitions of feminism, all of which agree on gender equality, and you said you have never liked the idea of feminism. QED.
Why?
And damn straight I'm a feminist - I don't believe either men or women are better than the other, more important than the other, or deserving of special treatment based on possession of a particular set of genitalia.
Krazykiwi wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "I don't think any gender deserves more rights. That's not the issue. I am saying that in some cultures women enjoy equal rights and power just as men. They don't even have any issue..."I have read your definitions of feminism and I agree with them all. How ever, I did say that I never liked the idea of "feminism" as such because "equal rights" could be achieved even without being marked as a feminist. Rights are inherent for every gender. They are already there in many cultures although some feel the need fight for it and to oppress those, the "noisy minority? Even though they happen to be women.
Tara wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Tara wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Tara wrote: "Matthew wrote: "There are plenty of people out there who make the claim that "Political Correctness" is terrible and has ruined everything...."Quite right.
