The Happy Prince - The Devoted Friend

[Deborah, Moderator]

I hope everybody has been enjoying the holidays. Somehow a story about friendship seems very appropriate at this time of year.

What does devoted mean to you?
At the end we are told it's dangerous to tell a story with a moral. Why would it be dangerous?

[Rosemarie, Moderator]

This story has a different mood than the others we have read. This book is about abuse of friendship. The Miller is an odious character who abuses Hans by taking advantage of his good will and generous nature. In other words, the Miller is a "user".
The moral of the story is different than the usual morals we find in stories. I think the story is telling us to beware of false friends like the Miller, who is a hypocrite and steals Hans's time, which leads to a very sad end for Hans.

[Brit]

This story builds on the previous three stories. Again Oscar Wilde tackles love and friendship brilliantly with a twist on the theory and practice of true friendship and love.

The water rat and the Miller are two of a kind. Their selfishness wants us to shake them up and scream no, no, no, you have no clue about love and friendship and this how Oscar Wilde gets us contemplate true love and friendship.

[Brit]

A couple of questions:

Hans has a beautiful garden, in which he works every day. It is full of lovely flowers. Are we again back to the garden of Eden and how we mess it up?

Oscar Wilde knew his bible. Is there a connection between this story and faith with and without works? These stories seem to illustrate biblical themes and truths, but not by lamely copying the biblical illustrations.

[Jo]

I have another question for you all: Was it really necessary to use the framing device? Does the story 'work' without it?

At first I thought it was rather superfluous because the characters of the water rat and the other animals aren't really fleshed out, are they. But when I finished reading the story, I thought it was clever to use this narrative technique. I think I never came across a parable or fable where the applicability of the moral it teaches is explicitly mentioned.

Why is it dangerous, then, to tell a story with a moral? Ideally, it makes people think and question their own behaviour ...

[Deborah, Moderator]

Jo wrote: "I have another question for you all: Was it really necessary to use the framing device? Does the story 'work' without it?

I first thought it was rather superfluous because the characters of the w..."

So is thinking and questioning one's behavior by its very nature dangerous?

[Deborah, Moderator]

Rosemarie wrote: "This story has a different mood than the others we have read. This book is about abuse of friendship. The Miller is an odious character who abuses Hans by taking advantage of his good will and gene..."

I agree, the mood is different. It came across to me as much lighter

[Brit]

Deborah wrote: "Jo wrote: "I have another question for you all: Was it really necessary to use the framing device? Does the story 'work' without it?

I first thought it was rather superfluous because the characte..."

If the story ended with the egregious behavior and speech of the Miller, then the framing of the story would be unnecessary. But to get the point across about the dangers of thelling stories with a moral, I think it is essential.

[Jo]

I agree with you, Brit: the duck's closing words play an essential role in the whole frame story.

Speaking of which ... that was a good question, Deborah. In my opinion it's very healthy to think about one's behaviour and being willing to reconsider one's point of view.
I think it's 'dangerous' inasmuch as most people don't like to be criticised or challenged this way. No one likes it when someone holds the mirror up to them - they feel offended or annoyed (like the water rat in our story) when they really ought to be grateful.
Unfortunately, many people don't want to endanger seemingly harmonious relationships by challenging others when it's necessary. That's where the real danger lies, if you ask me ...

[Deborah, Moderator]

Jo wrote: "I agree with you, Brit: the duck's closing words play an essential role in the whole frame story.

Speaking of which ... that was a good question, Deborah. In my opinion it's very healthy to think..."

How do you tell whether the challenging feedback is true or just the other party's nose being out of joint?

[Mila]

The question of a moral being dangerous reminded me of Rousseau’s criticism of La Fontaine’s Fables in "Emile". For him morals are too indirect for children to understand and too abstract for their young experiences. Fabulists, he says, are not able to adopt the children's perspective.

Something similar happens here. There is a moral and it is pretty obvious to us that the story warns against false, manipulative friends or states that one-sided friendships never pay off for the one being abused but we deduce it from the discrepancy between the miller's noble words and his infuriating behaviours.
The water-rat, on the other hand, takes the tale literally. When it is said that the miller is so devoted that he never forgets to take something away from Hans, the expression "devoted friend" is ironically used to address the abusive miller. The water-rat doesn’t seem to have the keys to irony, and he accepts uncritically the miller’s rhetorical speeches. Everytime there is a shade of suspicion on his grandness, the miller dispels it with some clever abstract words.

It strikes me that the character who understands that for such a hopelessly selfish bachelor as the water-rat the implicit message could not have come across, is the mother. Again I see a connection between childlessness and selfishness vs having children/dealing with children and virtues like empathy, patience and even wisdom.

[Abigail]

I liked seeing a little bit of Wilde’s snark coming through! The first time I’ve noticed it in this collection of stories.

As to the dangers of telling stories with morals, part of it may be that many people don’t like to be made to challenge the basis of their actions—self-questioning seems to be anathema to some. They like to fabricate myths about themselves and how wonderful they are, and hearing a story with a moral can undermine the treasured myth.

I like to think about these stories from the point of view of the very little I know about Oscar Wilde. I suspect he feels that he lives in a glass house, and throwing stones (morals) at others may rebound in attacks leveled against his own character. I wonder whether living in a society that defined him as immoral for his very nature made him think more about ethics, prompted him to develop a clearer idea of what values are really important and what are not.

It’s interesting to see the ethics around caring for children—helping them develop, giving them space to act like children and to learn—be such an important element in these stories. Coming from a childless man, it’s a bit surprising. And it’s also surprising to see a writer of this era saying so explicitly to children that they are important—not a mainstream concept in those days, I would have thought, despite the sentimentalizing of the Victorian age. Or maybe I’m speaking from an American perspective and in England it was different.

Finally, I wonder whether Kenneth Grahame read these stories and, if so, what he made of the Water Rat! Since he used the same animal as a major character in The Wind in the Willows.

[Deborah, Moderator]

Abigail wrote: "I liked seeing a little bit of Wilde’s snark coming through! The first time I’ve noticed it in this collection of stories.

As to the dangers of telling stories with morals, part of it may be that ..."

Great question about Graham. Does anybody have any info on that?

[Brit]

Abigail wrote: "interesting to see the ethics around caring for children—helping them develop, giving them space to act like children and to learn—be such an important element in these stories. Coming from a childless man, it’s a bit surprising."

Oscar Wilde was married and had two sons (born in 1885 and 1886) at the time he wrote these stories in 1889.

[Suki]

The water rat is a selfish creature, but the animals' conclusion that it is because he is a bachelor is proven faulty by the story, because Hans is a bachelor, and his abusers have at least one child.

I think the lesson learned in this story is that you have to be on your guard against "friends" who do not have your best interests at heart. Pretty words do not a friendship make; the miller was only "devoted" to plundering Hans by abusing his friendship. I have had people like this in my life when I was younger and much more naive. I learned this lesson the hard way. A good indicator of a false friend- they are not always easy to spot, they can be very smooth- is how indignant they get when you are not willing to always behave in ways and make choices that benefit them much more than you (the way the miller punished Hans with words and made him feel bad about wanting to look after his own interests. Poor Hans was caught in a situation where, if he didn't look after himself, no one was going to look after him. His "devoted friend" did not even truly mourn his death; rather, he used the funeral as an opportunity to show himself off as a figure of importance).

This story echoes the unappreciated sacrifice theme of The Nightingale and the Rose.

[Abigail]

Thanks for that, Brit! I didn’t know he had children.

[Brit]

Suki wrote: "I think the lesson learned in this story is that you have to be on your guard against "friends" who do not have your best interests at heart. Pretty words do not a friendship make;...

It is interesting that the moral of the story can be interpreted in more than one way. I was thinking the examining light was shone upon yourself so you are not found to be a "fake" friend with fine words and no substance and looking out for only yourself. That seems to be the moral of this story.

[Jo]

Suki wrote: "The water rat is a selfish creature, but the animals' conclusion that it is because he is a bachelor is proven faulty by the story, because Hans is a bachelor, and his abusers have at least one chi..."

Good point, Suki! It bothers me when childless persons are portrayed as heartless; I'm glad that Wilde didn't do that.

Abigail wrote: "Thanks for that, Brit! I didn’t know he had children."

I completely forgot that he had children.

[Charlotte]

I was thinking of hypocritical politicians when reading about the miller and that it might be politically dangerous to point out their hypocrisy (dangerous morals in a story). I liked the clear contrast of the meanial work and concrete, beautiful actions of Hans versus the lofty, theoretical expressions of the miller; all words and no substance. Wilde turns these sad realities into great humour in this story.

[Deborah, Moderator]

Charlotte wrote: "I was thinking of hypocritical politicians when reading about the miller and that it might be politically dangerous to point out their hypocrisy (dangerous morals in a story). I liked the clear con..."

That came to my mind too,

[Brit]

There is clearly a moral in these stories about true friendship, true love, and hypocrisy.

[Brit]

There is clearly a moral in these stories about genuine love and friendship versus hypocrisy. Is Oscar Wilde intention to to teach us how to avoid being victims or is he asking us to look at ourselves so we do not become hypocrites?

[Rosemarie, Moderator]

I think it is a bit of both. A person can be too naive and trusting, so others will takr advantage of them. From the other perspective, we need to be aware of how flippant statements may unknowingly cause pain to others. The last refers to the story of the nightingale, who died for a rose that was not valued and thrown away.

[Abigail]

It’s interesting to read these stories while living in a culture in which the consensus on what constitutes appropriate behavior is eroding. In Wilde’s day, the norms of appropriate behavior were stifling, and so he focuses on their hypocrisies and how they imprison or disadvantage individuals. The consensus is seen as artificial and is set in opposition to true values. But when the consensus evaporates, people are horrified by the results and bemoan the absence of common values.

[Deborah, Moderator]

Brit wrote: "There is clearly a moral in these stories about true friendship, true love, and hypocrisy."

Also I see selfishness in each one of the stories

[Deborah, Moderator]

Abigail wrote: "It’s interesting to read these stories while living in a culture in which the consensus on what constitutes appropriate behavior is eroding. In Wilde’s day, the norms of appropriate behavior were s..."

Very interesting point