Beta Reader Group discussion
Writing Advice & Discussion
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Can I have some advice?
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I think 400K is rather a lot (!)How about asking someone to beta the first 50–100k? You might want to a) split your mammoth version into separate novels and b) edit it down. So, asking for a beta view on the first section doesn't obligate you with a CP and you may well get some useful feedback anyway.
I know, that's a looooot of words... but my project was writing three books developing over a pretty lenghty period of time, and I am conditioned by years of reading long epic fantasy series. My brain can't contemplate writing anything that settles up in less than a few hundred pages (unfortunately).I will follow your advice, thank you so much for your quick answer.
Mari, let me clarify. Long books aren't a problem (if they are good!) for a reader, eg War and Peace, Tolkien, Proust.The problem for the writer, is in the beta reads, the CP, and … the editing. Plus, you have to decide whether to do the first book free, and hope people buy the others.
Just as your first line, your first par, your first chapter needs to be good, your first book/section of your series needs to draw people in.
Yes, my problem is that I can't easily ask someone I know to read it. It will just be a burden if it's not what they're into, and it's not... and when I checked the discussions almost everything was between 50k and 100k, so I got a bit nervous thinking of this monster of mine, I just had to ask if it was doable :)I will break it down.
for a first book, 100,000 words is about right. My advice, split it up into 4 books. You have to accept certain norms, rather than the world accepting your norms...if that makes sense. Then get six people to read the first few chapters..... see what they say and go from there. If its good, they may want to read more, if they have similar thoughts on change, they are probably right....and you will have some work to do. If you want to send me a few chapters, I will have a look and give you some feedback
For what my advice is worth, I started with a short story that ballooned into 250K of probably 400K in a series. However, I have the first portion set at around 80K for two reasons: ease/cost control of beta reading and editing (they charge by the word, you know), but most important: if the first 80K doesn't sell, why would anyone read the rest?So I think you really do need to break the beginning of your story into at least one manageable piece of 100K or so (where the 'or so' should bias to less than 100K). Work on getting that polished to the point you can start shopping it around. I suggest that you have some significant plot point wrapped up at the end of your first chunk so if there are not enough readers to get the rest published at least you'll satisfy those who do pick it up.
Thank you all again! Rod, thank you for offering your feedback :) I'm polishing it up to prepare it for a beta since I have left the first chapters alone for several months. I would be happy to send it to you, but maybe you want to know a bit more to see if you're actually interested in it? If not I was going to ask for a beta in a few days, as soon as I've re-checked it properly, so no worries :)
I'll look at the first 25-50K if you like...
Wow thank you! :) how should I send it and in what format?
You can PM me (or Google my name and find my email). Word (docx) is fine, though I use LibreOffice so odf is OK as well.
I also use Libre. Oh OK, I wasn't sure I could send stuff to people through this forum. It's coming, then.
Mari wrote: "Hi everyone, I'm Marina and I'm new not only to this group, but to all this Beta reader thing! I've never really sought out people to read my work.My problem is: I have this big-ass fiction (which..."
Ask a beta now. Word count is not a
that important if all of those words count. Ive read several 300 and 400k word novels and never felt bored or lost.
On the flip side i have read plenty of novels of 100k words or less where an author /editor has fallen down and let so much extraneous information into a story that it makes it damn near unreadable.
Get a few opinions from betas, If they're good they'll let you know if you're on track for a 400k epic or just stringing words together because you read a thesaurus.
Going on my very limited experience as a beta i would say that most authors could and should drop about a third of the words they have written during self editing prior to getting a beta.
Use word and utilise the find function. Type in . But . Then . And separately
and select "main document" from the drop down "Find in " menu
This simple exercise will point out find out how many of your sentences begin with unneeded conjunctions
Paul wrote: "Mari wrote: "Hi everyone, I'm Marina and I'm new not only to this group, but to all this Beta reader thing! I've never really sought out people to read my work.My problem is: I have this big-ass f..."
Sorry if my previous coment makes no real sense and doesn't address the original question . ive been to a xmas partyy an im a lttle drunk
Maybe you should get a lockout for your keyboard ;-)
ahahah well I'm impressed that you managed to give such professional-sounding advice while drunk! Congratulations :) And i appreciated the comment a lot becase one of the things I'm especially worried about in my work is exactly overwriting, so you were spot-on.
I'm not sure if I'm reading this right or not, but are you saying 400k total or 700k finished product?I'm sorry but if you handed any beta a 250k+ work, I'd expect them to laugh at you, especially if it is a first novel. That's just monstrous in size.
"If" 80k is the default novel size with Fantasy/SciFi running large at 120-150k (first timer), 200k would be the absolute upper limit, and that is assuming that 10% is going to be cut right off the bat (180k). You're at more than double that.
I'm not saying that your work should be shorter than that. Far from it. But within the context of your question "fielding it to betas," you need to "break it up" either by chapters or story arcs to make it more manageable not only for the betas but for yourself.
As others have said, the actual size is not what matters, it's the content. However, remember you are not dealing with "your baby" anymore. You are refining "a product" and that product has a distinct size. That size if too large can be very cumbersome. Like trying to get a box through a door by yourself. The bigger the box the harder it is to maneuver, and the longer it will take to merge beta comments and edit slowing your overall process.
Food for thought.
R/Aaron
I think the problem with such a mammoth work is that you'll have a hard time convincing anyone to take a chance on a new author if the book weighs in at 700 pages. There is SO very much to read out there and SO very little time. Authors have succeeded at writing epics, but even some of them broke the novel across multiple books (LoTR comes to mind... Tolkien wrote it as one story, but his publisher made him split it into three novels.)
I think I had the wrong idea of how to proceed when I posted this, because I read many answers saying that it's a lot and it should be broken into multiple books. I was already planning to break it down into books, although I will probably change the division and accomodate it to number of words per book and plot necessities. I thought I would just say how long I planned it to be in total, including the last part that hasn't been written yet. Breaking my novel into many pieces to make it more palatable to betas isn't a problem at all, and I surely won't care if it has to be split. As I said, it's already split (although my concept of splitting ranges from 180k to 225k per book, but that can be changed).
And yes, it took me a while but I'm just now realizing that editing so much is a lot of work (I must be a genius or something), so according to the advice I've received I'll cut it in smaller pieces to make it easier to propose to people and see how it goes
Mari wrote: "I think I had the wrong idea of how to proceed when I posted this, because I read many answers saying that it's a lot and it should be broken into multiple books. I was already planning to break it..."If it's any help, my client's series was 500,000 + in total. First book was around 110, another at say 120, and the two longest at 140/150. It was intended to be a trilogy but the last book (at nearly 300) was split into two. The books don't feel long because the author writes well, but it was one hell of an edit.
Hi Marina,If you want I can look at the first 3 chapters. I like fantasy novels and have experience with receiving (editorial) comments from my own editor.
You can send me a message for my e-mail.
Mari wrote: "lately I'm restless to know if my novel is even any good at all since I've been writing so much, which is why I started to want someone to read it for me and give me a feedback.what kind of feedback do you want? there's several levels of feedback that you could get:
Note: All of my criteria are centered on the book's niche, in your case, dystopian or dark fantasy.
(1) Does the book's style match enough with the expectations of enough readers in that targeted niche?most writers want (4) but many times (1) is even more important because that will influence the tropes, style--basically everything in (4) the quality of writing--of your work in progress (WIP).
(2) Does the book's originality in ideas or style match the current or projected trends (admittedly, difficult) in the niche?
(3) Does the book's originality in ideas or style match current trends outside of the niche; for example, current events, and endorsement by a US president, publishing trends like the introduction of the kindle.
(4) Is the quality of writing (clarity, dialogue, and so forth), story (complexity of plot, pacing), and characterization good enough?
is this is your first book that you've written or have you written other fiction like short stories, flash fiction that you've published? Or have you finished another book but not published it?
Hi Hati, thanks for offering to read it! Three chapters means a pretty long way to go, almost 50k! Is it still OK? About the kind of feedback, I am content with knowing if it's readable. As I mentioned, I tend to get carried away with the words, so yes, I think the fourth point is my major concern
Hi,aha 50k for 3 chapters :)
That's about the same wordcount as my novel but that's ok. You can mail it in a .doc document to tjhati@live.com
I know, this is why I warned you ahah I will probably make an effort to make them shorter, but the chapters are usually plot chunks in my case, so I need to figure out where the new divisions should be (if I really convinve myself to change them)thank you, I'm in the middle of rereading it right now and I think I can send it between tonight and tomorrow
Hello, Marina, I have exactly the same problem as you, I've written two books so far (both from the same series) and each one goes beyond the 300k words mark, the only thing is they're originally in spanish and I'm working on their translation. I already revised the translation for the first book, but I could use some help to test the grammar consistency since I'm not a native english speaker. So I thought that we'd be pretty much on the same level with the word count; we could swap chapters then if you're interested. My book's genre is urban fantasy and I like all fantasy-related books, I don't mind reading a lot (I've read books with more than 1k pages), so let me know if you're interested.
Hi maho! I'm sorry to disappoint you but I'm not native English either >.< Of course I will be happy to swap, but as I have two consecutive exam sessions in January and February and a thesis to write I don't think I can read it in a timely fashion. You can still pm me! artemis94@hotmail.it
Oh, it's okay, either way maybe we can help each other.
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It's OK! I already got some feedback and I'll edit the first part before posting it up for betas again. I don't think it appears in the seeking free betas section, though, at least I can't see it there...
My problem is: I have this big-ass fiction (which I don't even know what category it should be in, but I'm thinking it's maybe "dystopian" or "dark fantasy") of about 400k words with another 300k in progress. That is a lot and I feel guilty even just proposing it for beta-ing, also because it's not finished. And I need a CP more than a beta, as I have realized after scrolling through this - wonderful - group.
From what I've read, CP will want to exchange novels and opinions. But in these months to come I will have to read seven or so books for my graduation thesis and I won't be able to return the favour immediately even if I found a CP willing to read all that.
For some reason, lately I'm restless to know if my novel is even any good at all since I've been writing so much, which is why I started to want someone to read it for me and give me a feedback.
Should I wait till I have actually the time to reciprocate by reading a CP's novel or should I ask for a beta and delay the more thorough editing I was hoping for to a more appropriate time?
I know this is a stupid problem but I really am unfamiliar with beta and CP policies and this would literally be the first time I put my novel out there for someone to read.
Thank you all in advance!