A Non-Sensational Question

[Jen]

I've done some beta reading, and though I found two authors who love what I do, many (many, many) have called me overly opinionated and visceral.

Here's my question:

What's the typical procedure for beta reading? What do authors expect to see? What are other readers providing?

I've been using red ink to insert comments and critiques wherever I feel like it. Is this wrong? Am I just supposed to read, then send the author an email with general feedback?

Any help would be appreciated. I'm not likely to change my style for those who like it, but I might want to do this again for someone else and I get the impression than I'm offending people...

[Jen]

Thank you, Linda. Aside from the two I'm working with now, they don't come back for more. I get thanked, and dismissed. I just want to make sure I'm not completely out of line. I take beta reading seriously...

[Michael]

I wouldn't say you were wrong in your approach, no, it just seems that those authors got more than they had originally bargained for!

As an author, I've made use of beta readers on three occasions now and quickly realised that some people are better at finding/commenting than others. Some will find only the occasional spelling mistakes whilst others will point many other things as well, including what parts they thought worked and what didn't.

I think it's rather rude for the authors to say you're overly opinionated. Beta readers are (usually) volunteers offering their time on a non-professional basis so I'm always mindful of the fact that everything is being done during their free time.

I don't generally specifically ask after individual beta readers again as I always feel like I'm imposing myself on them, but due to some of them being in the same GR groups as me they have helped me out on different books.

[Jen]

Michael,
Thank you. If there's a class out there for betas, I never heard of it. I did what I thought was best, that's all I can say.
I'm a reader with no aspirations to write, but I do find that I enjoy giving my opinion and proofreading a MS (so long as I like the author/book). I don't mind volunteering my time for an enjoyable activity. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't completely wrong in my approach. I always thought the more feedback a writer got, the better off they'd be...

[Jason]

What terms are you using? Things like "restructure this" or "this is awkward-what are you trying to say here?" are fairly neutral and (probably) won't offend too many people, but "What the hell?" or worse might trigger the defensive response.

Also - do you put in positive comments? I know that, for me, when I get positive comments it makes me much more likely to listen to criticism because I, on an instinctual, emotional level, understand that they aren't just opposed to my writing, they are trying to help me grow and improve and they recognize what I do well.

Hope this helps a little.

[Tom]

Jen, you've beta-read for me and I loved all of it. It's better to tear a book apart when it can still be edited and re-worked than to publish it and realize all of those things later. I'd come back to you for more, but I have nothing else to offer at this point!

I've told my beta readers to be as brutal and honest as possible, and not to treat it like something I've written. That generally turns up good feedback, because when the reader knows they have a free pass to tear it apart, they'll address every concern without fear of reprisal.

[Jen]

Jason wrote: "What terms are you using? Things like "restructure this" or "this is awkward-what are you trying to say here?" are fairly neutral and (probably) won't offend too many people, but "What the hell?" o..."

I use terms like "cut this, we already get it" and "I don't think (this character) would say this." I'm never trying to be mean. I take on projects only when I have an appreciation for the work. I don't want to trash a novel or rewrite an entire book. Where's the fun in that?

[Jen]

Thomas wrote: "Jen, you've beta-read for me and I loved all of it. It's better to tear a book apart when it can still be edited and re-worked than to publish it and realize all of those things later. I'd come bac..."

I appreciate that! I've just gotten some rejections that made me question my approach. (It seems not everyone likes the way I do things...)

[Jen]

Linda, that made me laugh out loud. Perfect visualization there. Absolutely perfect!

If I hadn't already become your "fan," that would've done it...

[D.C.]

Hmmm, Jen, how full is your plate? I can ALWAYS use critical betas. They're never as rough as my editor will be.

[Janelovering]

Are you giving reasons for your objections? For example, when you say 'cut this, we already get it', maybe it softens the blow a little if you follow it up with 'it's basically the same thing you say on page 23, 57, 92 and 110'. I find I object less to negative comments if my reader can give concrete examples of why something is wrong. And if you say 'this character wouldn't say this', perhaps follow it with 's/he seems to have a very positive way of looking at things, which is why I feel this is out of character'. That way your comments come over as less didactic and more reasoned argument.
And I second the 'give positive feedback'. Nothing makes me feel fuzzier than when a beta/editor pencils in 'this made me ROFL'.

[Stefani]

I have been looking for betas for my first finished work and I'd love to get red inked. Go for it, tear my book a new one, tell me every single thing that sucks. I might not agree with you, but if you have that opinion (or other betas do) then maybe I am looking at my work through rose colored glasses.

[Jason]

Jen wrote: "Jason wrote: "What terms are you using? Things like "restructure this" or "this is awkward-what are you trying to say here?" are fairly neutral and (probably) won't offend too many people, but "Wha..."

Then I don't see any problem with your terms, personally. I would take this well (I think...)

[Jen]

Janelovering wrote: "Are you giving reasons for your objections? For example, when you say 'cut this, we already get it', maybe it softens the blow a little if you follow it up with 'it's basically the same thing you ..."

Actually, no, I don't. Beta reading (at least the way I do it) is time consuming, and requires thought and attention to detail. If I'm worried about softening blows and cushioning my remarks, it would only take longer, and make me less effective.

[Jen]

D.C., and Stefani, what projects did you have in mind?

I ask because if I wouldn't normally read the story, I won't beta read it. I think there should be some amount of compatibility between author and reader.

[Stefani]

Jen wrote: "D.C., and Stefani, what projects did you have in mind?

I ask because if I wouldn't normally read the story, I won't beta read it. I think there should be some amount of compatibility between auth..."

Mine is an urban fantasy, heavy on the paranormal and light on the romance. I will paste the synopsis for you, see if you're interested. No obligation, naturally, since you weren't soliciting new works but let me know.

"Micah Levensque is an unusual young man with an even more unusual career. He is a bounty hunter for things that go bump in the night. All those monsters that mommy said didn't exist, he gets paid to hunt them down and dispose of them. Only one obstacle is in his way to making his dream a reality, Delia Michaels. Assigned to him as an on the job trainer, she has a reputation of getting her new recruits killed...and quickly. But, that was all just rumor right? "

[D.C.]

Jen wrote: "D.C., and Stefani, what projects did you have in mind?

I ask because if I wouldn't normally read the story, I won't beta read it. I think there should be some amount of compatibility between auth..."

I'll have a revision ready to go within the next week or so. It is a Halloween story, and it has a small amount of explicit gay sex between three men. It is primarily a romance, and is light, but the content would make it not necessarily everyone's cup of tea. I'm not under contract yet, but it was for an open call, and I do have what's essentially a verbal agreement if they like the revision, which is mostly to remove elements the publisher was not comfortable with.

I always have new stuff coming down the pike too. Almost all of my work is about gay/bi men, but it's not always explicit and there are usually only two of them.

[Shannon]

Personally, I think you've just found some overly sensitive authors. Beta readers are there for not only to find mistakes in spelling and grammar but also for opinions. They tell us authors where they notice information is possibly missing or where something isn't working well. They tell us where we should elaborate and anything else under the sun they feel like needs to be addressed. The more opinionated a beta reader is, typically the better. The only reason I say typically is if the beta reader doesn't provide information on why their opinion is the way it is, then being opinionated could be a bad thing.

An author also doesn't have to take what you say and apply it to their work, so there's no real reason for them to get upset about your opinions since they asked for it.

[D.C.]

I agree completely, but some people are very sensitive about it. I think they are in the wrong game. Betas are for telling you what you've done wrong, or could do better, not stroking your ego.

That's what fans are for, and while their feedback is awesome, it's very different.

[Stefani]

Linda wrote: "something caught my eye IMMEDIATELY in your synopsis. Do you want a PM? "

Most definitely. PM away!

[E.G.]

Jen, I have a primary beta reader/creative editor who regularly rips up my work. I take it as a compliment. I've written something worth that level of attention.

Recently, I've needed beta readers for a project in a genre my creative editor doesn't enjoy. I was fortunate enough to get several volunteers. I try not to impose, since anyone who volunteers is doing me a favor. So yes, I'm happy with macro comments about the story arc and character development. I'm thrilled with more detailed input.

Any author who gives a beta reader a hard time - what Linda said in message 11.

[Nenia]

I love my beta. He's so awesome. Sometimes I get a chapter back that's all marked up, and other times I get a chapter back that's virtually untouched. Then I feel speshul, like I got a gold star on a math test! Having a beta makes me work harder, because I know that my best efforts will be made even better by a second pair of eyes wielding a red pen.

[Arabella]

Beta readers are a godsend. How many times have you read your paragraph and it says she's going to die Saturday night when you previous made it clear it was tomorrow night!!! They see the things you've completely zoned out on
I want a beta reader to be honest...and that includes saying this isn't their cup of tea and I might do better with someone who's better versed in the subject.
I have to be honest...I've entered things in contests and gotten a gushy I Just Love This and the next judge spent paragraphs telling me how messed up it was.
Be honest....but know what you're talking about

[Virginia]

Arabella wrote: "Beta readers are a godsend. How many times have you read your paragraph and it says she's going to die Saturday night when you previous made it clear it was tomorrow night!!! They see the things yo..."

I absolutely agree. Honesty is a must. How else can we write a better, more satisfying book if we don't know how our readers feel. Also, the more specific my betas get, the better I like it.

[Jen]

Thanks everybody! When I finish my current projects, perhaps ill take on some new authors...

[S.]

I dont have a real beta reader just a former colleague who i send my writing for an opinion. i mostly ask him whether he found the writing interesting, whether there is any areas that need further explanation or background info..and whether the flow is there..mostly his feedbacks are i have choppy writings and that im not insightful enough..i agreed with him most of the time but im not aiming for pullitzer prize..to me the most important is that the writing is interesting for readers..

[S.]

S. wrote: "I dont have a real beta reader just a former colleague who i send my writing for an opinion. i mostly ask him whether he found the writing interesting, whether there is any areas that need further ..."

only after his feedbacks ill send the writings for proofreadings..

[E.G.]

Jen, I've had an eye opening experience on beta-reads. As I mentioned in an earlier post (m25), for the first time I've solicited (and been fortunate enough to find) a handful of beta-readers for a project outside of my normal genre.

With half the beta-reads in, I've had great feedback on everything from the ending to annoying word choices to typos (more than I expected.) What's a huge surprise is that they all want to know where to post a review.

From Wikipedia (it's not perfect but it is reliably in the right time zone)

An alpha reader or beta reader (also spelled alphareader / betareader, or shortened to alpha / beta), also pre-reader or critiquer, is a non-professional reader who reads a written work, generally fiction, with the intent of looking over the material to find and improve elements such as grammar and spelling, as well as suggestions to improve the story, its characters, or its setting. Beta reading is typically done before the story is released for public consumption.[1] Beta readers are not explicitly proofreaders or editors, but can serve in that context.

Elements highlighted by beta readers encompass things such as plot holes, problems with continuity, characterisation or believability; in fiction and non-fiction, the beta might also assist the author with fact-checking.

Nothing about a review (let alone a 5-star). What's even more surprising is that my lovely beta-readers are surprised I'm not looking for one.

As you have already noted - something is broken.

[Jen]

E.G., thank you for that. I often struggle with this role. I enjoy it, but at times I feel I'm being too opinionated and that I'm crossing the line from beta reader to editor, which isn't my role.

I appreciate you looking into this for me!

And, yeah - a whole hell of a lot is broken in the system...

[Stan]

Based on what you have reported here, it sounds as if you are doing a good job. I don't mind beta readers giving strong advice, but that doesn't mean I'll take that advice.

[Jen]

Thanks, Stan! Personally, I don't mind if you don't take my advice. You are, after all, the writer...

[Virginia]

Jen wrote: "E.G., thank you for that. I often struggle with this role. I enjoy it, but at times I feel I'm being too opinionated and that I'm crossing the line from beta reader to editor, which isn't my role.
..."

Jen,
PLEASE, cross that line. :) I much prefer strong opinions that help make the story better than a "it's a great read" with nothing else said. I'm sure the authors you beta read for feel the same.

[J.D.]

My beta readers give feedback according to their own lights and occasionally two or more end up in accord. When that happens I take notice - something is usually very wrong.

Comments by readers who have volunteered to help an author because they love reading are THE most valuable opinions and from them I can tell if a reader has understood the book, if they actually enjoyed it or did not and whether there are major faults which need addressing. I don't need proofreading from a beta reader, since it is their experience of the book I find most useful and typo hunting can easily interfere with that process.

For anything else, my editor has a policy of slashing and burning that which she thinks is rubbish, without reference to my ego (which is the same faulty mechanism I've had since birth). But, ultimately, it's my book and my responsibility to get it right, so we may disagree once in a while.