Romance Writers & Readers discussion
Writing Romance
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Slow-Burn: is there such a thing as TOO slow?
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I like the idea myself. I recall reading about a series that was like this. The author just stated in the description on Amazon that in the first book, the characters were starting out as friends with a growing attraction for each other. I think with this kind of head-ups to readers, you'd find an audience that would keep reading the story provided the rest of the story was intriguing.Without some advanced warning, you might get a lot of DNFs and low reviews from people saying the romance started too late and they'd need to read another book to see it fully developed.
Kathy wrote: "Without some advanced warning, you might get a lot of DNFs and low reviews from people saying the romance started too late and they'd need to read another book to see it fully developed. "I hadn't thought of warning people about it. Great idea, thanks! Put something in the blurb about it maybe?
I don't think I'm a fan of slow burn, especially if they don't even meet until the story is almost finished. They don't have to meet right away per se, but I don't wanna wait over half of the book for it to happen. I do like the idea of a warning for people. I think I would be disappointed, but I wouldn't stop reading. I always finish books:)
I was thinking in terms of the characters meeting early in the story, but just remaining friends as they get to know one another. If they are not going to meet until the book is almost finished, that's a totally different thing because who then is the book about? By the time they meet, readers will be attached to other characters and probably won't even care about these two people. While much experimentation can be done with a romance, I don't see how a book that doesn't introduce the couple until the book is almost over will be considered a romance.
Kathy wrote: "I was thinking in terms of the characters meeting early in the story, but just remaining friends as they get to know one another. If they are not going to meet until the book is almost finished, th..."I suppose I should have made the premise a bit more clear. Its a dual 1st-person POV story. The main characters are introduced straightaway, it just takes them a while to begin interacting. And once that happens it takes a while for sparks to fly, due to a variety of reasons....as to the trope involved here, think "Bodyguard Crush".
Does that help?
I had a lot of folks comment that the hero and heroine didn't meet fast enough in my first book - and I think they met halfway through chapter 2. You can have a slow burn even if they're together. But it's your story - write it the way you want. :)
I think it depends on what kind of book it is, I don't read straight romance but I would suspect that the expectation in most of those books is for the two main characters to meet fairly promptly in the story, because thats kinda the whole point of the story is the two characters meeting and falling love. However I write romantic suspense, and my very first book the hero and heroine don't meet till about 25-30% of the way into the book and I've had no complaints about that, however the focus is very heavily on the crime side of the story not the romance side, so I believe that helps.
I think its totally fine to have the relationship develop slowly, especially in a series, but I would probably get a bit disappointed if it took too long for the two main characters to meet, but like Queen Amanda I read to the end of every book I start, but I may or may not then pick up the next book in the series because I'd be thinking that the whole romance was going to continue to move too slowly.
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Like, if it's cold or lukewarm throughout then it's not personally my jam. However, if I'm dying for the characters to get together and they just refuse to do it? If it leaves me frustrated enough to smack their heads together? If I get a boatload of tension between the H and h? I dig it.
I don't care if the legit romance isn't there as long as the legit feels are *shrugs*
@Jane: My series would likely be classified as romantic suspense (I'd call it "romantic thriller" since the crime aspect is more thriller than mystery) and is heavily focused on the crime/underworld aspect of the story, so hopefully that will help. Also, the time in book 1 where the characters aren't together is supposed to showcase how lonely the H and the h are...its largely a setup for a relationship. They are two people who really need love, lol. :D
@Annie: Thanks, that's a good thing for me to keep in mind. I'll have to remember the tension. In my notes I have it where they don't start noticing each other for a while, but I think I'll change that up...after all, the love story is supposed to be the main plot, and thanks to how book 1 ends the h has a good reason to start wanting the H from that point on... ;)
Eric wrote: "@Jane: My series would likely be classified as romantic suspense (I'd call it "romantic thriller" since the crime aspect is more thriller than mystery) and is heavily focused on the crime/underworl..."Hmm, then I think that should work okay, and regardless of what anyone says I always believe its important to write your story the way you feel is best, because there will be people who complain no matter what you do
So glad this question popped up. I'm usually a straight into action author. But my current book has a really slow build up. I've been worrying over that. And also trying to reign in, as now there is some action I don't want to rush it. It still has a way to go before its tale is told so it still needs to sustain excitement.
Gosh this writing malarky gets tough!
As a reader if your characters don't meet until book 2 I may not get that far. But I'm impatient. It'd need to have a real sizzle for me to get as far as book 2.
Your book/s your way though.
Follow your heart.
xx
I have a book I'm editing and revising where the lovers don't meet until almost half way through the first book. Like Eric, it is going to be a series, For my book(s), the love aspect isn't the main story, but more of a secondary story, so I felt the late entrance of her perfect match wasn't a problem. My heroine goes through a lot before she meets her man and much of what happens prior to their meeting, prepares her for meeting him and what will happen after they get together. He plays a central role but not until she is prepared for what will happen after they meet. The story is an urban contemporary with shamans, druids, magic, and a lot of problems.
I wonder if it should be categorised as romance? That would be the only problem I could see - that people who were expecting a romance didn't actually get one (in the first book). Even with a series, romance readers expect to see a HEA at the very end, but at the end of each piece it normally sits at HFN (Happily For Now) or, if you're writing cliffhangers, OH DEAR GOD WAHT JUST HAPPENED MIND BLOWN CAN'T WAIT FOR THE NEXT PART!!! Still, you should write the book of your heart, and then afterwards worry about which (if any) category to try to place it in. And remember that all the rules are made to be broken, so long as you break them but good.
xoxo
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Personally, I dig HFNs ending on a painful heart tug so I wanna deliver HFNs ending on a painful heart tug. My goal is never closure even though that's exactly what the romance "consensus" calls for. And yeah, I've been criticized (not legit "criticized" but can't think of the right word LOL) for writing cliffhangers. To me, they're not cliffies at all but to some readers they are. And that's THEIR right to decide, not mine, ya know? My job is to write, publish, and respect the reader's opinion.
We're all different, eh? As are readers. It really is impossible to please everyone. I'd say we should do whatever we feel like as long as we can take the heat in a graceful manner. Cuz expecting everyone to like everything we do is a bit (read: a lot) pansy, imho. XD
Bree wrote: "I wonder if it should be categorised as romance? That would be the only problem I could see - that people who were expecting a romance didn't actually get one (in the first book). Even with a serie..."This is the exact same problem I have. Like...to me my story is a romance story. It's about the relationship between two characters, isn't that enough?? I mean it's definitely not chick-lit so....
As a reader I would be fine with a slow-burn because I think it's more natural. BUT I think just meeting each other at the end is kind of too long a wait. Maybe whether others are okay with it depends on how the rest of the story builds up to that point?
I feel like there's an expectation for all romance books to be like Harlequins so you're stuck with either too much romance for a book that isn't romantic enough to be considered romance.
As for the cliffhanger LOL I'm pretty sure the exact words of one of my friends while reading mine was "NO WHY WOULD YOU END IT THAT WAY?"
My response was laughter, not going to lie. :P
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As for the slow burn... I think that the end of the book is too long to wait for them to meet but thats just me. As a reader cliffhangers aggravate me somewhat. As a writer I love them! I'm evil I know but the way I see it you have to leave your reader wanting more so they will by the rest of the series. My book is Romantic Suspense though so if there wasn't some suspense it wouldn't be right! ;-)
Thanks for the responses everyone, your feedback is really helping me here!For clarification, my two characters don't meet at the end, just near the end ( again, my outline puts their first meeting at around 75% through the book). They also do "have a moment" before the book ends; its neither romantic nor sexual, but it is intimate, if that makes any sense.
I guess a premise description might help here...
The hero lives as an outlaw biker and makes a living as a "professional tough guy" (his words); he's a strip-club bouncer and part-time prizefighter in an off-the-books fighting ring hosted by a motorcycle gang.
The heroine is a high-priced escort (the $3,000+ per date type). In the course of her work she becomes the accidental witness to a murder, and the perpetrator is a police officer. Her half of the story is her trying to find protection that isn't connected to law enforcement so she can keep breathing.
While she's dealing with this, the H finds himself having to break up a patch of ugliness involving one of his biker comrades and a young girl; for a variety of reasons he feels compelled to try and set that right as much as he can, but it doesn't go well for him. Like, at all.
By the time he meets the h, he's pretty well burnt on the idea of playing Galahad...until she gives him a reason to think otherwise. ;)
Anyhow, like I said before thanks a lot for everyone's feedback, y'all are helping lots! Maybe I'll have them meet sooner, I dunno.
Ember wrote: "Ha! Melissa I had the same reaction from two of my ARC reviewers for my book! They did NOT like the cliffhanger! LOL! One of them told me that I needed to contact her with the second book as soon a..."Haha -- see! That's how you guarantee you have beta readers too! It's like a trap. But I think it's motivating as a writer, because you know these people are waiting and you can't let them down. I think cliffhangers are only truly bad if you never continue your series or end it on a permanent cliffhanger.
With romance though... I think the cliffhangers have the potential to be the most painful.
I read Writing Romance for Dummies a while back (a VERY good book by the way), this was to double-check whether I'd actually met the genre criteria because I had the self-doubt happen. I'm not sure if I can link the book here (is it a bookwhack??) but if you preview the first few pages on Amazon, the part that says "What Makes a Romance a Romance" basically says: the romance needs to drive the story and there is no set formula, just meet reader expectations.
The question is what are the expectations? :-/ You have to figure out who your target market is I guess to know the answer. Or just put it out and see what happens...
Eric wrote: "Thanks for the responses everyone, your feedback is really helping me here!For clarification, my two characters don't meet at the end, just near the end ( again, my outline puts their first meeti..."
I think your premise sounds really cool! How about having a "crossed paths" moment? Like where they meet each other without knowing they've met? Or like a thing where he leaves a place just as she goes there so you can tell they could have met and it would have been exciting if they did. You can build suspense that way.
Honestly, I'm not a hardcore romance reader so I can't say for sure, but it sounds enough for me to consider it one, especially if it is part of a series. But I think romance might be more of your secondary genre if such a category exists.
Melissa wrote: "Eric wrote: "Thanks for the responses everyone, your feedback is really helping me here!For clarification, my two characters don't meet at the end, just near the end ( again, my outline puts thei..."
Wow, thanks! You just gave me an idea I hadn't considered before!
Again, the H is a prizefighter in an illegal ring, and I've already got it where the h mentions that she knows about the place because clients have taken her there. His part of the story opens with him in the ring...I'm thinking maybe she could be in the audience with a client, watching the H fight. That would be a great way as I see it to put the characters in the same room right off without them meeting.
Also, since I already had planned to make her first impression of him rather negative (she is NOT the sort who is attracted to violent men) having her see him in the ring early on...yeah, that works.
Again, thanks! That was an awesome suggestion! :D
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Definitely motivating! I could never leave readers totally hanging. That was one of the reasons I wrote the second one so quickly! Yeah they definitely have the potential to be pretty painful! I have read a few that were gut wrenching! It was horrible!At the same time it is also one of my fav series so there is something to be said about the power of a good cliffhanger!
@Eric! I think that is a great idea! I might suggest doing it more than once though. The readers will love the suspense! The thinking that if one or the other had been only a minute earlier or later they would have ran into each other may leave your readers wanting more! But that's just a thought! Good Luck!
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I gotchu covered, Miss Ember *smirks*
@Mr Eric: I dig that idea! Annnd the underground prizefighter too ^_~
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Great premise Eric totally can't wait to see the final product!
Oh man, all this talk about the characters at the same place, yet not meeting, makes me wanna keep turning the pages. And eventually, if I kept turning and waiting and hoping the next time they'd actually meet and they still don't, I might start to get annoyed. I wouldn't want it to happen too much or take waaaaay too long. But I do like the idea:). And the story sounds soooo good!
I'm glad I was able to help! :3 I like the initial hate-meet too of her not liking violent men. I agree that doing it to often might frustrate readers. On the other hand, it could serve to put the reader in suspense but also throw them off. Since if she immediately dismisses him that way, people might not see their later interaction as a possibility. I wouldn't do it often, but if the first time it's not even immediately obvious that they will cross paths later, you could probably get away with doing it at least three times. The last two times there can be more obvious hints or something.
Eric wrote: "I don't know if this belongs in the writing or reading section, but since it concerns a story I'm working on I'm putting it here. Anyhow, my question:
I'm working on a four-volume series concern..."
I think that depends! For me I'm writing a series where the main couple won't get together in the first book only because of the death of ones partner so as I build the relationship between the two the more Romantic parts will be in flashbacks until book #2. that being said the slow burn is possible but as a Romance reader I would need something to tide me over until I got to heart of the story.
I'm not sure if that helps though...
Once again, thanks everyone for all your suggestions, y'all rock!@Ember: Given the way the story progresses, I think once will probably be enough. Any more would likely come off as contrived, since the H and the h don't move in the same circles much at all - she's an ultra high class escort whose main clientele is rich guys, and he moves in much more working class/poor circles. Having her see him once at the beginning does let me work in a good character description of him right off though, and for that alone its worth doing.
@Annie: If you want a glimpse at Gabriel Stark, he shows up in my short story "Somebody to Love" in the first volume of the Biker Chicks anthology. Just sayin'. ;)
@Amanda: Well, we can hope it is! I've got most of the four volumes outlined and a bunch of scenes written...I just need to sit down and pound the rest of it out. Gosh-darn writers block, it kills me! :(
@Melissa: She doesn't hate him on sight, its more 'yikes, big scary man is scary'. She's reluctant to go with him when they meet near the end, but the person who introduces them does remind her that thanks to her situation (hunted by crooked cops) she isn't exactly spoiled for choice. It also doesn't take her long to be put at ease by him, because she's very good at reading people (high class escorts tend to be) and because he goes out of his way to be not-scary once they're alone...instead of doing what she expects him to do, which is act all growly and threatening.
@Stephanie: The "snack" I planned on offering romance readers was how the H on at least two occasions reminisces about ex-girlfriends of his (he doesn't have too many and has fond memories of all but one - because c'mon, everybody has That One Ex).
Once again, thanks everybody for your advice and insight. It's been really helpful! I want to tell the story the way I think it should be told, but knowing how to get that story across to readers is really important, and that's where all your suggestions and opinions are very much coming in handy.
Y'all rock! I can't say that too many times! :D
PS: My lovely and talented girlfriend designed an awesome logo for the fictional motorcycle club the story revolves around:
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In my opinion, it sounds like a good suspense story but not really a romance novel. I don't think you'll be pleasing romance readers with his flashbacks of ex girlfriends as a snack. What they want is interaction between the leads and a bit earlier than at 75% in. That doesn't mean you won't have a great story on your hands, but I'd be careful about labelling it as romance (or romantic suspense).
Eric wrote: "Once again, thanks everyone for all your suggestions, y'all rock!@Ember: Given the way the story progresses, I think once will probably be enough. Any more would likely come off as contrived, sin..."
Okay, thanks for the clarification! Doesn't it feel great to finally work out everything? :)
Your gf did a good job and I'm loving the jester hat on it. Are you doing anything with it or is it just for fun? It actually reminds me a bit of a logo I've seen with the axes bit though. So if you do use it for marketing or anything, just a heads up!
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^_~
Eric wrote: "Once again, thanks everyone for all your suggestions, y'all rock!@Ember: Given the way the story progresses, I think once will probably be enough. Any more would likely come off as contrived, sin..."
Ah, your girlfriend is the best! Looks great:)
I love seeing the variety in reader preference! I'm not a slow burn girl, either; I'm impatient for something to happen at least 1/3 of the way through. Eric, you might look at specifically what market you're targeting. crime thriller readers can wait til the end; it's all part of the premise. Romance readers want, well, romance! That's the point of that genre. Good luck with your research!
@Melissa: Thanks for pointing that out, but I'm not too worried about it. Crossed weapons behind/below a skull device has been a common heraldic device for centuries; pirates used it. That basic design premise has been used so many times nobody owns the patent on it. And yeah, the symbol will be used for promo materials. I'm thinking either patches or re-usable shopping bags (in Washington where I live they've largely banned plastic bags and charge people for paper ones). Pins also, perhaps.
For promo materials, I'd drop the "1%" diamond and "MC" cube from the graphic (those symbols have actual meaning among real-world outlaw bikers and I've no wish to get myself or a fan in trouble) and replace the "TACOMA" with my web address.
Annie/Amanda: Thanks! I'll let her know you loved it. She's got talent, my lady does. ;)
@Sunny: Hm. I've been re-thinking the outline and I do believe you're right...too much crime drama in the first book for it to be called a romance, but too much romance for a crime drama in the second. I think I might just smoosh them together, cut the fat and call it a romance. Would an encounter in chapter 1, a meet at 30% and a hookup at 60% be enough to call it a proper romance, in your opinion?
Hey Eric, your percentages look on par with the (hundreds) of novels that I've read. At 60% for the hook-up is at the outer boundary of average but anything is possible with the right tension!
Ember wrote: "As a reader cliffhangers aggravate me somewhat. As a writer I love them!"Haha, Ember! I love this!! And kinda agree!! I don't mind reading them but don't always enjoy them, but I don't mind writing them!!
So I'm catching up on threads from while I've been away and this topic has been interesting to reread because my current work in progress is going to be the first book in an on-going series with a very slow-burning romance, as my heroine has just been found after been abducted four and a half years ago, so she has a LOT of stuff to work through and I feel a rushed romance would be totally out of place, but her hero is literally her hero and he's a patient guy who's happy to be her friend and help her recover even if she never gets to a place where she's ready to be involved with a guy. Of course they will end up together, and will probably officially be a "couple" in book two, but there will still be a wait before they do much of anything particularly "romantic" as the heroine has some fears to work through!And by the way that is one super long first sentence I just wrote!!
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I have to say, Princess Jane, I didn't even notice it was all one sentence, but I found myself nodding my head because I know however you write it, it will be an excellent story:)
Amanda wrote: "I have to say, Princess Jane, I didn't even notice it was all one sentence, but I found myself nodding my head because I know however you write it, it will be an excellent story:)"I love you!!
I won't derail the thread like we did last time, but I gotta say I love you too! ♥‿♥
Amanda wrote: "I won't derail the thread like we did last time, but I gotta say I love you too! ♥‿♥"Hahaha, yeah I remember that!! We better be good or Mistress Ann will have to punish us!! Hahaha!!
@Sunny: Thanks! Also, I've realized that putting their first meeting at the beginning (and having it totally not go according to spec) will let people know right off "hey, this ain't your grandma's romance novel". As in, for better or for worse it isn't standard fare. That will let people for whom new and different isn't their cuppa to check out. If they take the time to read the teaser, that is.My girlfriend had two great suggestions about the beginning (at least I think they're great): One was to have it be where in each POV, people around the H and the h remark on the other one's hotness (e.g. objectify them), and the characters are both like "eh if you say so". On her end its because rough, dangerous men aren't her preferred. On his its because he's spent years as a strip-club bouncer, so for him pretty girls and T&A is just part of the landscape.
Her second suggestion was to invert the whole "body betrayal" trope: Instead of having the h board the my-mind-says-no-but-my-body-says-YES train, I should have it where her lower emotions are all "EEK stay away, big scary man is scary" but her brain is all "hmmm, intriguing".
Reason: The h is a high-class call girl. Men are her business, she likes her work and part of her is wondering "could I handle him?" Sort of the same way a skilled mountain-climber might look at a really dangerous cliff face. You know..."How good am I? Am I that good?"
@Jane: What you're working with there sounds great! I personally prefer slow-burn romances greatly, provided the author takes care to make the tension not-repetitive. Far too often, the only aspect each notices about the other is how hot they are, and I'm sorry but there's only so many times that can be mentioned before I'm like "oh come on would you two just GET A ROOM already??"
Anyhow, my question:
I'm working on a four-volume series concerning a single relationship, and after plotting three of the four books out I realized something; it takes a while for the characters to hook up. Like, a long while. To give y'all an idea, they don't even meet until three-quarters of the way through the first book.
Now, I tend to prefer the 'slow burn' type of romance stories, where the chemistry takes a while to build and the characters grow closer in stages...but is there such a thing as too slow? If you read the first book in a series where the characters did not immediately meet, would you put it down or keep going?
What are the opinions on this? I've never read or seen a novel which did this so I'm curious.