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Scripture Discussion --Romans 11: 17-25
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The mystery he's talking about is the gentiles who believe being grafted into the inheritance left to us by Jesus.
Paul, as an apostle to the Gentiles, is telling them about God’s future plan for the Jews (much prophesy has been written about that plan, e.g. Isa. 60:1-14; Dan. 12:1; Mic. 7:11-12; Zec. 8:1-23). Paul refers to Pro. 3:7 as he warns the Gentiles not to ‘become proud’, informing them that pride has no place among them, for although it is true that Israel is disobedient now and that the Gentiles have entered into relationship with God, this is all according to His plan, which includes the salvation of the nation of Israel in the end.The phrase, "fullness of the Gentiles," is not used anywhere else in the Bible but here, and it could be referring to that once the Gentiles receive salvation, the Jewish nation as a whole will come to the Lord (Rom. 11:26). The Amplified Bible's translation would lend itself to this interpretation: “…a hardening (insensibility) has [temporarily] befallen a part of Israel [to last] until the full number of the ingathering of the Gentiles has come in”.
Urs, I would agree with the general outlines of what Nike and David wrote above. Paul uses the metaphor of an olive tree for the family or people of God, with some of the "natural branches" (ethnic Jews) broken off because of unbelief, and believing Gentiles "grafted in." I think most Biblical interpreters would agree that he does expect (based on his faith in the power of God's Spirit to achieve it) a future turning of all or a large part of ethnic Israel to Christ.
Nike wrote: "The mystery he's talking about is the gentiles who believe being grafted into the inheritance left to us by Jesus."Hey there! :)
Thanks for joining in with your input, and forgive me for taking so long to get back to you. It's such an amazing mystery, huh?! I want to share what some of the gals at my place said:
1st gal said this --->I love the KJV but sometimes it needs and interpreter:
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery,... Brothers (and sisters) I want you to know this truth from God
lest ye should be wise in your own conceits;... so that you will not feel proud and start bragging
that blindness in part is happened to Israel,... the Jews (Israel) cannot see the truth of the Gospel that Jesus Christ is Lord and Saviour.
until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.... this blindness will last until all of us who will be saved, have been saved.
In other words the Jews will remain ignorant of what Christ has done for them and us, until all of us are saved. This is a truth from God and not something for us to brag about.
#2 gal said to #1 gal ---> Ok...that is what I am thinking. The Jews won't recognize Jesus until the exact number gentiles are saved. Then HE will open up there eyes. It is just so something to think about...God is waiting for us "gentiles" to be saved before He saves His beloved people. I always wondered when the Jews would recognize Jesus as there Savior and just saw this verse...amazing!
#1 gal said back to #2 gal ---> It's even sad to think we "gentiles" in our stubbornness to accept God's grace are preventing His Chosen from being saved... but then He also knows how long this is going to take and it is quite exciting to know His plans are being filled exactly as He knew they would.
I can't help wondering why? Why do all the Gentiles who are going to be saved, need to be saved, before the Jews will be saved? Because God said it, I believe it, That settles it.
Then I replied to both gals with this ---> I think it is one of those "mysteries" that we are to accept. I think that God hardened their hearts as a judgement for denying Christ. He did it in a way, though, that they still had the choice to repent and then accept.
Salvation will come to Israel. It's a part of the new covenant that has to be fulfilled. In Paul's teachings, he showed that he understood this to be true from the Old Testament and how it was prophesied that Israel would be delivered from sin. Our God can't do anything different because of His promises and His unconditional covenants. So, like I said above, hardening their hearts as judgment was a way to show them their gross error. Because He is so merciful, and wonderful, and amazing, though, He left it so that there was possibility to still understand and then make Christ their Savior as a part of the Holy Spirit and God in One.
Read Matthew 13:11; Romans 16:1; I Corinthians 1:7-10; Ephesians 3:3.
In reference to what I said above about the new covenant: Jeremiah 31:31-34
Paul weaves together Psalm 14:7, Isaiah 59:20, 21, and Jeremiah 31:31 to show that he understood the Old Testament literally, and that the Old Testament prophesied Israel's deliverance from sin.
Then we talked a bit more, and prayed for our understanding. :)
David wrote: "Paul, as an apostle to the Gentiles, is telling them about God’s future plan for the Jews (much prophesy has been written about that plan, e.g. Isa. 60:1-14; Dan. 12:1; Mic. 7:11-12; Zec. 8:1-23). ..."Hey there! :)
Thanks for joining in with your input, and forgive me for taking so long to get back to you. This is a wonderful response. I want to share what some of the gals at my place said:
1st gal said this --->I love the KJV but sometimes it needs and interpreter:
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery,... Brothers (and sisters) I want you to know this truth from God
lest ye should be wise in your own conceits;... so that you will not feel proud and start bragging
that blindness in part is happened to Israel,... the Jews (Israel) cannot see the truth of the Gospel that Jesus Christ is Lord and Saviour.
until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.... this blindness will last until all of us who will be saved, have been saved.
In other words the Jews will remain ignorant of what Christ has done for them and us, until all of us are saved. This is a truth from God and not something for us to brag about.
#2 gal said to #1 gal ---> Ok...that is what I am thinking. The Jews won't recognize Jesus until the exact number gentiles are saved. Then HE will open up there eyes. It is just so something to think about...God is waiting for us "gentiles" to be saved before He saves His beloved people. I always wondered when the Jews would recognize Jesus as there Savior and just saw this verse...amazing!
#1 gal said back to #2 gal ---> It's even sad to think we "gentiles" in our stubbornness to accept God's grace are preventing His Chosen from being saved... but then He also knows how long this is going to take and it is quite exciting to know His plans are being filled exactly as He knew they would.
I can't help wondering why? Why do all the Gentiles who are going to be saved, need to be saved, before the Jews will be saved? Because God said it, I believe it, That settles it.
Then I replied to both gals with this ---> I think it is one of those "mysteries" that we are to accept. I think that God hardened their hearts as a judgement for denying Christ. He did it in a way, though, that they still had the choice to repent and then accept.
Salvation will come to Israel. It's a part of the new covenant that has to be fulfilled. In Paul's teachings, he showed that he understood this to be true from the Old Testament and how it was prophesied that Israel would be delivered from sin. Our God can't do anything different because of His promises and His unconditional covenants. So, like I said above, hardening their hearts as judgment was a way to show them their gross error. Because He is so merciful, and wonderful, and amazing, though, He left it so that there was possibility to still understand and then make Christ their Savior as a part of the Holy Spirit and God in One.
Read Matthew 13:11; Romans 16:1; I Corinthians 1:7-10; Ephesians 3:3.
In reference to what I said above about the new covenant: Jeremiah 31:31-34
Paul weaves together Psalm 14:7, Isaiah 59:20, 21, and Jeremiah 31:31 to show that he understood the Old Testament literally, and that the Old Testament prophesied Israel's deliverance from sin.
Then we talked a bit more, and prayed for our understanding. :)
Werner wrote: "Urs, I would agree with the general outlines of what Nike and David wrote above. Paul uses the metaphor of an olive tree for the family or people of God, with some of the "natural branches" (ethni..."Hey Werner! Kinda missed you! :)
Thanks for joining in with your input, and forgive me for taking so long to get back to you. I've been getting ready for a trip to the mountains, and being a real slacker with pajama days and READING! x) How are things with you?
I like what you had to say, and I want to share what some of the gals at my place said:
1st gal said this --->I love the KJV but sometimes it needs and interpreter:
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery,... Brothers (and sisters) I want you to know this truth from God
lest ye should be wise in your own conceits;... so that you will not feel proud and start bragging
that blindness in part is happened to Israel,... the Jews (Israel) cannot see the truth of the Gospel that Jesus Christ is Lord and Saviour.
until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.... this blindness will last until all of us who will be saved, have been saved.
In other words the Jews will remain ignorant of what Christ has done for them and us, until all of us are saved. This is a truth from God and not something for us to brag about.
#2 gal said to #1 gal ---> Ok...that is what I am thinking. The Jews won't recognize Jesus until the exact number gentiles are saved. Then HE will open up there eyes. It is just so something to think about...God is waiting for us "gentiles" to be saved before He saves His beloved people. I always wondered when the Jews would recognize Jesus as there Savior and just saw this verse...amazing!
#1 gal said back to #2 gal ---> It's even sad to think we "gentiles" in our stubbornness to accept God's grace are preventing His Chosen from being saved... but then He also knows how long this is going to take and it is quite exciting to know His plans are being filled exactly as He knew they would.
I can't help wondering why? Why do all the Gentiles who are going to be saved, need to be saved, before the Jews will be saved? Because God said it, I believe it, That settles it.
Then I replied to both gals with this ---> I think it is one of those "mysteries" that we are to accept. I think that God hardened their hearts as a judgement for denying Christ. He did it in a way, though, that they still had the choice to repent and then accept.
Salvation will come to Israel. It's a part of the new covenant that has to be fulfilled. In Paul's teachings, he showed that he understood this to be true from the Old Testament and how it was prophesied that Israel would be delivered from sin. Our God can't do anything different because of His promises and His unconditional covenants. So, like I said above, hardening their hearts as judgment was a way to show them their gross error. Because He is so merciful, and wonderful, and amazing, though, He left it so that there was possibility to still understand and then make Christ their Savior as a part of the Holy Spirit and God in One.
Read Matthew 13:11; Romans 16:1; I Corinthians 1:7-10; Ephesians 3:3.
In reference to what I said above about the new covenant: Jeremiah 31:31-34
Paul weaves together Psalm 14:7, Isaiah 59:20, 21, and Jeremiah 31:31 to show that he understood the Old Testament literally, and that the Old Testament prophesied Israel's deliverance from sin.
Then we talked a bit more, and prayed for our understanding. :)
Urs wrote: "Kinda missed you!". I've been around on Goodreads, but just haven't posted much in this group in the last several days. Good discussion you ladies had of this passage; thanks for sharing it with us! (Quick Goodreads tip, from someone who's been on here since 2008: if you're replying to three people's posts, you can actually reply to all three in one post of your own, despite the separate "reply to this post" links. Especially if what you want to say to all three includes the same material, that can save a LOT of time and typing. :-) )Things are as busy as ever with me, but pretty good, nonetheless. Tell us more about your planned trip to the mountains! Where are you going, and when?
Werner wrote: "Urs wrote: "Kinda missed you!". I've been around on Goodreads, but just haven't posted much in this group in the last several days. Good discussion you ladies had of this passage; thanks for shar..."I know you have been around--I have been reading your wonderful reviews, but just haven't had a chance to holler at you properly. :)
OOPS! I wasn't sure that if I didn't say something back to each individual, they wouldn't see that I had indeed gotten back to them. That's kind of why each one has a bit of a different greeting. So, from now on, if I were to only reply to the first person that says something, everyone will get notified of it?
We are headed up to the mountains of Asheville, to visit with my mom for her birthday! Today is actually her special day, but my boy has a wedding to do, and he didn't want to miss church tomorrow, so we will head up there after church. We'll be with her for a few days, then come back home on Wednesday. I miss my mountains, and can't wait to see the splendor! AMAZING! :D I like to tease and say that God favors us mountain folk, because He gives us such amazing beauty. ;)
I've been busy. Too busy. :/ It's me dealing with my church family heartache, and keeping my mind overly occupied keeps me from the confusion and despair. *sigh* Being TOO busy pulls you away from God, though, and you don't listen to Him as well. :( I'm trying to reign in with that. That is another big story for another time, though, but prayers for my church family would be greatly appreciated.
Happy Saturday! :)
Yes, Urs, whenever you make a comment on any thread, Goodreads' program automatically e-mails a notice, to everyone who's commented on it previously, that there's been a new comment. (That's unless people have opted out of that, but I believe it's the default set-up.) And it's also the default set-up to give people an e-mailed daily list of all the new posts in each group they belong to, even in threads they haven't commented on.Know what you mean about the beauty of the mountain country (here in southwest Virginia, it's all around us, too). Have a wonderful visit with your mom! And my prayers will be with your church family.
OK, great. Thanks for letting me know. :)Aren't we blessed?! *g*
Thank you so much! I'm going to READ! and your prayers are very much coveted and appreciated.
Hi All,This verse needs to remain thoroughly in context. Romans chapters 9 to 11 are a single unit. Paul has spent the first 8 chapters of this epistle explaining the gospel in detail for his gentile audience. During chapter 8, Paul brings God's sovereignty in salvation into the spotlight, which then leads to the discourse in chapters 9-11.
I believe these 3 chapters illustrate the error in thinking that "Israel as a nation" was ever in perfect alignment with the "Israel of God", which is the entirety of the Body of Christ, aka the Ekklesia, the Church.
In the days before Christ's first advent, God raised up the nation of Israel as a shadow or type of Jesus and by extension the Church. In fact, many within this nation were indeed part of the Church; those who were saved by faith looking forward to Jesus. This was never ALL of national Israel though. We can see this clearly enough in the early exodus events. God saved all of national Israel from Pharaoh, which was a temporal salvation based on works (paint the blood on the doorposts), but 40 days after they had left Egypt, when the men returned from spying out Canaan, God made it clear that the majority of the Israelites were going to die in the wilderness for their lack of faith. This differentiation was carried on throughout Israel's history.
I believe Paul is making it clear that the true Israel of God is not and never was anything to do with being only an Israelite by ethnicity. We should look for fulfillment of God's promises to Israel to be fulfilled in the Israel of God, not just (or perhaps even) within the Biblical nation known as Israel.
Those of Jewish ethnicity make up many within the true Israel of God, but they come into the New Covenant body the same way everyone else does, by personal faith in Jesus. Nobody inherits eternal life by citizenship and/or genetic membership of any particular human nation.
Those who put a huge emphasis on what I call the "second shadow", aka membership in ethnic Israel as a contributor to salvation, often level a charge of "Replacement Theology" at the view I have briefly articulated above. But as Werner, correctly in my opinion, pointed out Paul uses the Olive tree analogy to illustrate this. I would point out that there is only one true Olive tree in Paul's analogy. This cultivated Olive tree represents the True Church, or Israel of God. It is not uprooted and replaced with another tree (Replacement Theology) Neither is a second Olive tree planted next to it in a sort of Olive grove to represent two plans of redemption for two peoples, Jews and Gentiles (Dispensational Theology).
The very next verse from the one Urs posted sums it up.
"And in this way ALL ISRAEL will be saved..."
Please note, the word "until" regarding the fullness of the Gentiles coming into the church does not imply that something else will happen AFTER this. It just states that part of national Israel has been hardened UNTIL a point in time. Hardening is not reversible, it is a one way journey for the individual who has truly hardened their heart against God.
I think here in the West, many people make the mistake of thinking that the body of Christ, the Church, is a gentile entity. In modern times, more gentiles have come in than Jews, but historically there is no distinction within the Church.
I'm not saying God's plan doesn't include the coming in of many, even most, ethnic Jews in the future. But if it does, they will come in one Jew at a time, by personal faith in Jesus as their Messiah. Not by membership in a modern-day nation calling itself Israel.
One of the gals said: "Our God can't do anything different because of His promises and His unconditional covenants"The covenant God made with national Israel, administered through Moses, was never unconditional. There were always blessings to be conferred dependent on the conditions of observing God's Law and not worshipping false gods.
The Prophets record national Israel time after time failing to meet these conditions, and God's judgment first on the 10 tribes collectively known as "Israel" and then on the 2 tribes collectively known as "Judah" in their captivities and dispersion, and finally during Jesus' first advent when He predicted the imminent destruction of the rebuilt Temple and Jerusalem. "Your house has been returned to you desolate."
The New Covenant ushered in by Jesus at His death and resurrection is also conditional. It is for the many who believe that Jesus is the Son sent by the Father to pay the price for their sins. Faith is the condition. And God is the source of our faith.
I've just moved this thread to the "Theological Discussions" folder, which seems like a more natural home for it, and added a clarifier to the heading to identify what Scripture is being discussed. Hope that's helpful!
It seems like I am the patron saint of "Jumping the Thread". I'd better look up Ted McGinley and start hanging with him.Werner, I would say you should just add Romans 11:25 to the header, rather than "the Olive Branch" since "the Olive Tree" is a part of the discussion resulting from the original verse posted, but not the intended focus of the author of this thread. If I had to guess at the intended focus, it would be "I'm still mystified by Paul's description of the Mystery"
Nathan, I just retitled it "Scripture Discussion: Romans 11:17-25," to basically adopt your suggestion, but include the whole passage. (Yes, the basic metaphor was the olive tree, not just a branch. Sorry --here in the U.S., it's late at night, after a long day, and that's not when I'm the most mentally alert! ;-( )
It is easier to thread the eye of the needle with a Greek camel/Aramaic rope than for an exhausted Moderator to enter a thread into the right group.
This topic has been frozen by the moderator. No new comments can be posted.
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
Romans 11:25 KJV
What do you folks think this is saying? How do you understand this? We had this to come up over at my Christian place. I'd be interested to know what you folks have to say. :)