A Song of Ice & Fire Fans discussion
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A Feast for Crows
Rhaegar Lyanna & Jon-Proof or Myth?AFFC
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Very interesting point Rebecca, I always thought that R+L was love not rape (echo's of Tess of The D'urbevilles I believe that was seduction not rape too but that's another days argument) could mean anything but interesting!
Thanks N:)The first time I read this short scene, I simply thought that Rhaegar was going to take the crown from his father, the mad king. But everyone who knew Rhaegar admired him, including Ned, Selmy even Jorah Mormont so for Rhaegar to move against his father(tho mad he be) would be treason. By all accounts it doesn't seem that Rhaegar would do that. It is known that Elia could have no more children and Rhaegar took prophecy seriously and perhaps Lyanna did too.
It is a small paragraph...but I think it is a clue to the true identity of Jon and perhaps there is something in Lyanna's crypt that will prove Jon is legitimate.
It's like tracing bread-crumbs but that is all Martin has given us so far....blast the man! lol Thanks for responding.
*shakes fist at GRRM* answer some questions PLEASE!!!!
I think the widely believed version is he tells Jaime because Jaime doesn't like Aerys either, and it is fairly well known he questions Aerys methods. Jaime is basically a glorified hostage once Tywin and Cersei go back to Casterly Rock. I always assumed he meant he'd speak with Jaime to support his bid, Rhaegar clearly had the support of 3 of the 7 kingsgaurd, Arthur Dayne, Oswell Whent, and Gerold Hightower, if he had Jaime's support he'd have the majority. Since all the others were dead, that'd only leave Barristan Selmy to protect Aerys and oppose Rhaegar's early ascension.Even Aerys believed that Rhaegar was trying to usurp him, it's the only real reason Aerys attended the tourney at Harrenhal. Varys tells him that he has heard rumors their was to be a secret meeting of some of the most important houses in Westeros, including Rheagar.
Outside that, it wouldn't really change the line of ascension much even if Jon is Rhaegar's son. He's the second born son. Inheritance works that your first born legitimate male child is the heir, so Aegon would still be the heir of the throne after Rhaegar and before Vyserys. To change that would risk upsetting Dorne and even further corruption of the unification of Westeros. The North was already united with the South far before Rhaegar and Lyanna ever occured (if it did) The only thing that shook the North from the South of Westeros, was Rheagar taking Lyanna. (No matter the reason) Dorne's relationship with Westeros however, has always been shaky. That is partially why Tywin wants Myrcella to marry a dornishman and sends her to live in Dorne.
Lastly, even if Rhaegar did marry Lyanna, it is still debatable whether that would be widely accepted by the culture of Westeros. It'd been literally generations since such a thing had been done. Literally no one alive in Westeros has ever experienced a Targaryen King with multiple wives.
I have heard and investigated this theory for years….. My biggest issue is this…… GRRM knows EVERYONE thinks this is the story behind Snow. One thing GRRM does well through all of the books is misdirection. I just think he is smarter then that and is BAITING us all to believe in the theory, typical misdirection. I could be way Off and theres plenty of info. for the speculation. I just don't think GRRM is gonna have a major development like that cracked before he wants us to know…… Like some feedback Thanks! (just my humble opinion.)
I definitely agree some fans hold onto this particular theory a little tighter than is realistic in my opinion.It could work out, like you said, there is a basis in the speculation and it's a strong theory, but it is hardly 100% for sure.
I wouldn't be surprised if it went either way though. If it works out, cool, makes sense, if it doesn't, still makes fine sense. I really don't think their is all that much loose ends other than some disappointment for a large group of fans.
@Amber and Michael-----I can understand what you mean, but glorified hostage or not, why would Rhaegar bother with a young Knight? And if he is reduced to having to ask a rather wet young Knight to support him, then his chances aren't high and if one of them wavers it means Rhaegars death.To all intents and purposes Prince Rhaegar was admired by many including Ned, Selmy even Jorah Mormont. I don't think Rhaegar would turn to treason and have his father murdered so he can ascend the Iron Throne. There is also Neds dream of the TOJ battle.
“I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them.
“We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered.
“Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell.
"When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were."
“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells."
If the conversations between the Knights took place accurately then Ser Gerolds "or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne"...doesn't sound like Rhaegar was planning a royal coup.
As for Varys, he is about as trustworthy as Littlefinger. A man like Varys would not want someone who is strong and forceful on the Throne such as Rhaegar, hence the reason why Varys would whisper in the mad king’s ear increasing the mad kings paranoia.
Varys often says he has the interests of the Realm at heart--I think he has the interests of HIS place in that realm at heart.
When it comes to Dorne the real transgression was when Tywin Lannister ordered the murder of Elia and her children and in such a brutal manner. The marriage of Myrcella was meant to try and appease the Martells sense of outrage and to bind the families together...but Dorne has always been difficult-I think it is there culture to be independent to a certain extent including their lifestyels and their idea of law.
Prince Rhaegar was admired and respected and he believed strongly in prophecy I think he would have pushed through with his plan to set aside Elia(but not her children) and have his marriage to Lyanna Stark accepted including their child, but Rhaegars Heir would have remained with his first born son, Aegon which hopefully would have gone some way to appease the Martells and the Dornish people. Only if Aegon died would Jon then take precedence and become himself Heir to the Iron Throne.
This is all of course a matter of conjecturea and as I said above we only have the crumbs that GRRM has thrown us...But I do go with the theory that R+L=J.
As for theories...It makes for interesting reading and no-one is going to be 100% correct because unforunately we cannot read minds...especially GRRM's mind, mores the pity....
PS; I'd love to know who you all think will eventually sit on the Iron Throne? I love reading theories lol....
While I do believe that the R+L=J is probably true, this particular scene doesn't seem to have anything whatsoever to do with it. It seems fairly clear that Rhaegar was planning to depose his father and take over - depose, mind you, not kill. He probably intended to rule as regent, not king - such as in the real historical case of the Prince Regent (the future George IV) ruling England after his father George III went mad. Rhaegar probably intended to have Aerys confined somewhere safely, perhaps in Dragonstone or Summerhall. For that, he needed the Kingsguard on his side - the Kingsguard were sworn to protect the King, and would therefore not allow anyone, even the Crown Prince, to take him away. Jaime was a member of the Kingsguard, who were the most elite group of knights in the kingdom, and not a 'wet' young knight. Of course his support mattered to Rhaegar. Not in a personal sense - Jaime's personal opinions didn't matter, but as a member of the Kingsguard, he was in an important position.
Whether or not Rhaegar's feelings for Lyanna were involved in this decision, is hard to tell from the information. But it's too much of a stretch, IMO, to assume that this scene between Rhaegar and Jaime was about Lyanna, and not Aerys.
Hmmm...interesting thread. So if R+L=J, which I'm inclined to believe, and throw in the complication that Aegon is ahead of Jon. Do we really believe that Aegon is genuine? I just feel like he is a fake. As for who will sit on the Iron Throne (assuming it still exists), I would like to see either Jon or Tyrion on it. Ahem, assuming of course that they are both still with us ...
Line of succession is irrelevant. Whoever gains the throne will have to do so by right of conquest. The targaryens have been dethroned they no long have claim to the iron throne. So it's more a matter of who can win the throne than who has the rights to it.Right now the only realistic contenders are stannis, dany, and perhaps aegon if dorne joins his cause.
I don't see Stannis or Aegon as strong contenders. Dany yes if she ever gets to Westeros. I think Jon Snow will rise through his efforts to defeat the white walkers, and I'd like to see Tyrion in the mix. I'm really looking forward to seeing how Littlefinger's scheming develops too, but I'm hoping Sansa finally does something decisive and kills him off. :-)
Stannis has an army and financial backing. It may be small but he's a far better strategist than anyone currently in KL. Which is really important. KL is practically undefended right now. I agree, Aegon is a much weaker option. But again, he has people willing to fight for him and potential Allies. However, if Dany ever makes it across the pond his supporters will likely defect to her side. Because... dragons.
Jon Snow... unlikely. He has very little reason to even go to KL unless his fight with the WW takes him there. I could seem him claiming Winterfell and ruling as "King of the North" at least for a while.
Tyrion will likely be with Dany.
I love that there are just so many possibilities. I hear you on Stannis, but he is a hard man, very black and white and GRRM has painted his character as being very inflexible and I can't help thinking that this will lead to his downfall.GRRM describes Dany as his heroine, and I can see her being a strong contender.
I think there is going to be some major action with the white walkers pushing south in the next book and I think this will move Jon to prominence. If R+L=J is true and somehow gets revealed, then he could find strong support. I feel like GRRM has set Jon up to be his underdog from the start, the bastard, unknown parentage, disliked and dismissed by many, not considered part of the family ... just makes me feel he will prove he is more worthy than the rest ultimately. Although we all saw how worthy worked out for Ned ... not so good!
I think Tyrion's friendship with Jon will also be a factor in how the future unfolds.
The other thing that plays on my mind is that GRRM often says in interviews he didn't want to write Star Wars, that the nice guys don't always win ...
Stannis is a hard man but a good one. It doesn't make him popular but it does make him a good ruler. I actually think he'd be much more appreciated in the north than KL. Are Jon and Tyrion still friends? As far as Jon knows doesn't he still think Tyrion tried to kill Bran? I'm not sure if he's caught up on the story of that. Or if he ever knew that. Jon isn't one of the characters I follow.
Dany would be awesome. If she ever makes it and If she survives the WW.
I agree with what you are saying about Stannis, but I still struggle to see it. The Mel factor doesn't make me feel positive about him either.You know, I can't actually remember what Jon thinks on who tried to kill Bran. I thought he thought it was Theon Greyjoy ... can't be sure though, it's been a while since I read the books. I don't think this is going to be important though because in the TV series doesn't he know Bran lives, so seems like he might find this out in the books at some stage.
I have a feeling Dany and her dragons are going to be instrumental in defeating the white walkers. I'm sure it will be one of those when all is lost moments, she will sweep in with her dragons and save the day!
I think stannis and Mel are set to go their separate ways. But I agree he won't go far with her in his corner. I think Mel will be moving to Jon soon. Dany will definitely fight the WW but it could easily be a fight that leads to her death. It would leave her as a hero to her people even if she never got to rule them.
Overall I don't think r+l will make much of a difference to Jon's life. Except for giving him a family so to speak. I doubt he's going to learn his dad was a prince and run down to KL to be king. I think he'll feel better about himself but that's about it.
Mel might try to move to Jon, but Jon really doesn't like her ... I can't see him going for that.I think Jon's parentage doesn't so much have an impact on how he sees things personally, but how others see him and the role they might expect him to play. Also, it might make Dany curious if it gets out and reaches her.
I love all this deliberation, so many options for where GRRM could take things. What a complex story web he weaves.
I think Jon doesn't trust her but he likes her well enough. If she saves his life that may change his opinion. I'm honestly not sure if his parentage will get out and who would believe him or really care? There are many targaryen bastards around. Or there were. I doubt anyone will be sending ravens about r+l. It just wouldn't impact enough people and he'd need solid proof. Like riding a dragon or wielding one of the targaryen swords. I love how complex the story is. I'm far more familiar with GRRM history than real life lol
I don't think Jon will let his parentage out, he doesn't know and I don't think he will care, but others might ... I think Aemon knew, so why not others ... which kind of leads back to where Rebecca started this thread.I think Jon will end up riding a dragon. His ability to warg will mean that he will be able to control/communicate with them, even if he ultimately doesn't ride one.
The the other person I'd really love to see ride a dragon is Tyrion. What was all that stuff about special saddles being made for him in the earlier books about if not to solve the dragon-riding problem for him down the track!
I have no idea why, but I think Aegon is a fake and might actually get killed by a dragon.
Apparently GRRM was inspired the The War of the Roses, so perhaps we are getting some real history, just with the names changed to protect the not so innocent! :-)
Aegon getting killed by a dragon is a great theory and very likely.
Erm, we're talking about the line of ascension before the throne was taken by the Baratheon's, we're also talking about the for sure real Aegon.This isn't about anything that happened after Robert took the throne, or about the Aegon that pops up later.
Before the throne was taken by the Baratheon's the next in line after Rhaegar was his son Aegon, and had the dynasty not fallen, he would likely have taken the throne given he wasn't previously killed or joined some order that prohibited it.
I agree, at this point, the Iron Throne is pretty up for grabs. Though I hope nothing happens to Tommen, he's not a bad sort, might actually make a decent King. Though I'm inclined to believe at this point in the story Jon Snow is an unlikely candidate. He wouldn't even become the Heir to Winterfell, something he expressly desired in his childhood. In my opinion, the idea of him taking a throne he's never shown any interest in is really far fetched. I think he'll probably still do some work as Lord Commander, given he recovers, that is an important position still and he has shown the ability to bring in those who have lived outside the kingdom forever. Whoever is the new ruler, given they are intelligent, will see him as an asset. I would think settling the gift will mean more in revenue for the crown.
If we're talking about before Robert then the line isn't really in question. Aegon, Jon (if true), viserys, then dany, then rhaenys.
@Amber. Jon Snow may end up ruler if G.R.R.M. Decides to end the series with a switch to a democracy from a monarchy. Like how he was elected lord commander.
Correct, it's not. I thought Rebecca was suggesting that Rhaegar would try to move Jon before Aegon. In a perfect world, technically Rhaenys would come before Viserys or Dany. Viserys could possibly outweigh her claim if he had more support, but if Rhaenys were alive Dany would be totally shot.
Claim passes to a man's sons in succession of birth, followed by his daughters. Even in Westeros.
However, this is also in a perfectly functioning legal system, which we know isn't exactly what occurs. LOL.
You have some point there James, Jon might go for election, he certainly doesn't seem opposed to leadership, and if they switched to a sort of democracy, he has some chance and I think he'd accept that position. I just don't think he's going to storm up to Kings Landing to take the throne or anything. I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't even marry or have another serious love interest in the story.
Michael wrote: "I have heard and investigated this theory for years….. My biggest issue is this…… GRRM knows EVERYONE thinks this is the story behind Snow. One thing GRRM does well through all of the books is misd..."This is the same reason I have issues with the crazy popular theory. We should be friends because there are so so so few of us. However, it's his story and I respect whatever he chooses to do. I just don't see the R+L=J theory being the solution. Martin's writing is full of misdirection, like you said, and that's what keeps me captivated. Hopefully the end result with Jon is so far out there it hasn't even been thought of by any fan...just a hope though.
I am also one that is not sold on Jon "making a full come back" in WoW. I mean he was stabbed 3 times and you are lead to believe that continues with those surrounding him. I, honestly, don't see how one would survive because it was obvious, to me, this was planned with the end result being death. But I also realize Martin tends to bring people back a lot...like Jesus Christ Superstar. I, secretly, want him to return is a white walker. That would be so much more fun and eventful, imo.
Isn't succession all possible male heirs before any female heirs. So rhaenys would be before dany but they'd both be behind any of the male heirs of Aerys. Regardless of birth order. In a better world rhaenys the eldest would be the heir before aegon and Jon but shrug.
@ Amber. I agree, I don't see Jon storming King's Landing and taking power. I see him accepting power if offered to him. If he were somehow the rightful heir, which I do not believe or see being possible, he would accept it. I don't think he would ever pursue it on his own, only if it was what people asked for.
Nope, not all possible male heirs first. It follows in succession from the first male sons line. It only goes to Uncles/Aunts if the first male son has no heirs.
"Since the Dance, House Targaryen has practiced a highly modified version of agnatic primogeniture, placing female claimants in the line of succession behind all possible male ones, even collateral relations."
Ahh, I see, I went and read the citadel article on it. Interesting, that is a House specific thing they do then. In a perfect world, the other houses don't follow this method. (obviously not a perfect world, but it is how the succession is "supposed" to work)
So I guess Viserys would come before Rheanys, since they are Targaryen.
That makes me wonder if it came down to it, who would come after, Dany or Rhaenys? Does it switch back if Vyserys had no heirs to follow his line?
Good question. Probably rhaeny because she's older. But it might depend on who was king last.
@Mitali--I can concede that perhaps Rhaegar might have contemplated deposing his father, but not murdering him, mainly because of his fathers deteriorating mental health. I base this on the general respect that Rhaegar had with those who remember him. So yes, I can see Rhaegar ruling as Prince Regent(even tho 'Prinny was very disliked by the British people)it would have been different with Rhaegar. When all this took place I think Jaime was 15/16 years old a very young Knight but Rhaegar would have been aware how upset Tywin was when he offered Cersei's hand in marriage and I think it was this that Rhaegar was careful with his words to Jaime Lannister. As for the subject matter...It makes more sense that Rhaegar was talking about his marriage to Lyanna when referring to calling a Council as changes would need to be made....At this juncture words are not just wind, some words can be lethal and for Rhaegar to hint at taking the Throne from his Ruling father to a Lannister doesn't make sense....But it does make sense if he is referring to a new wife and may need Jaime's support to placate Tywin who will once again feel his pride pricked that Cersei was overlooked, twice.
@Mary-ellen--As we know Aegon was murdered alongside his mother and sister by the Mountain on the orders of Tywin Lannister. So the (F)Aegon that is running around now, I believe is a fake, mainly because I think this is the lad that Varys has had his eye on and Varys would choose someone weak and who NEEDS him. I think Varys has always had SELF-interest at heart and insuring his place of power as whisperer to a new malleable king. But as we know no-one is predicablet in this show and F-Aegon may just turn and bite the hand that feeds him--Varys may come to regret his machinations. And as for Sansa, seven hells, let us hope she does in Littlefinger;).
@JaphiaHart--When it comes to Stannis, he is a character I enjoy reading, although I don't like him much as a person. Stannis holds B&W attitudes to everyone except himself. He is quite happy to go along with mad Mel and sacrifice innocent people so he can gain power...Rather than face his brother in combat he has him murdered by a demon spirit...I find Stannis interesting but he'd make a terrible king. When it comes to Jon going to KL....There may be a mass migration to KL IF The Others and WW breach The Wall......I think Jon will warg into Ghost and it will be Bran who will help him fulfill his destiny.....I agree that Tyrion will be with Dany.
@Mary-ellen(again) "I think there is going to be some major action with the white walkers pushing south in the next book and I think this will move Jon to prominence. If R+L=J is true and somehow gets revealed, then he could find strong support. I feel like GRRM has set Jon up to be his underdog from the start, the bastard, unknown parentage, disliked and dismissed by many, not considered part of the family ... just makes me feel he will prove he is more worthy than the rest ultimately."
I think the proof of who Jon is lays in Lyanna's Crypt. It will be proof of his identity and proof of legitimacy-It is my opinion that Jon is The Prince that was Promised, but having said that I don't know if Jon will survive to the end. He may very well die a hero and become a legend(GRRM seems to do these bittersweet ends for the Starks)....I also think that both Jon and Bran will come to Tyrions aid if he finds himself in trouble and he may do so as his mouth may once again outrun his survival instincts. Tyrion and his wit-but ya just gotta love the guy!
There has been a lot of speculation over who tried to kill Bran. Some go with the theory that it was Joffrey, others that it was LF and some that it was Mance Rayder(who was at Winterfell during the Kings visit)if it is Mance I can't figure out why?
@James--I could see that happening but in a Cromwellian sort of way as 'Lord Protector of the Realm'...but in real history it kinda didn't work out well for the British who were happy to see the return of the Monarchy upon Cromwells death.
@Jessica--Like in AFFC( no Tyrion POV) I think Jon's character may take an hiatus in TWOW and we may catch glimpses of him in Brans POV and possibly towards the end Jon will return to his body(hey its fantasy-anything can happen) and I hope that soon we will find a conclusion as to who is Jon Snows parentage. If it is a 'Stars Wars' like scene....Then I go with Prince Rhaegar being his father and not the whole Jon has a twin sister...Heck in ADOS perhaps we will finally get to meet Howland Reed who seems to 'know all.'
James wrote: "@ Amber. I agree, I don't see Jon storming King's Landing and taking power. I see him accepting power if offered to him. If he were somehow the rightful heir, which I do not believe or see being po..."@James, I agree with you. I don't think he will go after leadership himself, but I think it will come to him. He has already demonstrated that he has leadership potential and his leadership credentials were affirmed by the brothers of the night's watch.
'Rhaegar had put his hand on Jaime’s shoulder. "When the battles done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made I meant to do it long ago, but....well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return."
For a long time I assumed that Rhaegar was inferring that he would take the Crown from his mad father, but why would he need to talk to Jaime about his intent, unless what Rhaegar was talking about affected Jaime or the Lannisters.
So for Rhaegar to call a council would imply that he had something to announce; something of great importance. What was Rhaegar going to say at this council?
What if it was to announce his setting aside of his wife Elia in favour of his new wife, Lyanna Stark and her (then) unborn child (Jon 'snow' Targaryen). This would change the line of succession so of course a council would have to be called. Why did Rhaegar feel the need to talk to Jaime and then add, "but...well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return.'
Is Rhaegar referring to the refusal to marry Tywins daughter, Cersei Lannister? When Tywins offer was rejected he was deeply resentful and his pride offended that his offer to wed his daughter to House Targaryen was refused. Now Rhaegar intends to announce his marriage to Lyanna Stark upon his return, but this means upsetting House Lannister again and at a time when he needs their support. So he tells Jaime that they will talk when he returns.
Why does Prince Rhaegar of House Targaryen need to talk to a young knight unless what he has to say affects Jaime and his family?
By marrying Lyanna Stark, Rhaegar has united the North (Ice) with the South (Fire) and through this marriage we have A Song of Ice and Fire and another hoped for Heir- A son of Ice and Fire-Prince Jon Targaryen.
But unfortunately Rhaegar dies and Ned is hiding a secret. A secret that torments him even to his death.
Is this small conversation between Jaime and Rhaegar proof of Jon's identity?