Goodreads Authors/Readers discussion
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Is it time to stop "being nice?"


Some are not.
One cannot tell by price alone which is which.
The easy choice to make is "If it's indie, it's probably bad so I'm..."
I don't want you silenced! You agree with ME!!!
I WANT to see negative reviews. I need to see them, because I make most of my book buying decisions based on reviews. Yes, I also check the Look Inside feature, but I've read books in which the editing stops directly after that preview.
Critical, harsh reviews are necessary. Price points imply certain things, but they guarantee nothing. I've downloaded freebies without a single error, and paid 5.99 for a dozen (really annoying) issues.
Review on!

Some are not.
One cannot tell by price alone which is which.
The easy choice to make is "If it's indie, it's probably bad so I'm..."
Sure! You have a point there :)

Anyone can write anything, pay to get it published and then call themselves an "Author". It can be pure trash or exceptional but there are very few ways to know which until you buy. Unfortunately my experience has found the majority is trash, with only a very few being exceptional.
The point of the thread was to get readers to review honestly and inform other readers of the actual quality of the books available. I know I have found lots of ways to filter what I buy and reviews are one of them.
If you find a book poorly edited - say so. If the book is trash - say so. If the book has merit and you enjoyed it - say so. How hard is it to be HONEST and still be polite. I can't believe dishonesty is acceptable under the guise of being NICE.

As it is, I still have topic where I ask for romantic suspense recommendations, just hoping they're not all as flawed as this book was."
Martyn, if you ever want romantic suspense recommendations, let me know. I've read a lot within this subgenre. (Sydney Sheldon, Iris Johansen, etc.)

When I was younger I read some books by Jackie Collins, particularly Chances and Lucky. I think something like that would now be considered romantic suspense.
You can always recommend books to me, Jen.

When I first published, the Kindle Fire hadn't been released yet. I did the due diligence, checking every page in the preview, downloading the file onto my kindle and to the computer, rechecking, etc, and everything was fine. But then the Fire came out and I didn't know my files were... well, they were crap. I discovered they were crap from a reviewer who was lost because there was no distinction between past memories and present, which confused me because there been clear distinctions. I opened up the file on my Fire and nearly had a coronary. The font was HUGE, there were no italics, the sentences were all over the place - it was mortifying!! I reformatted (ridiculously easy with Microsoft Word 10, at least for the kindle. It's nearly as easy with Window 97 for smashwords) and resubmitted the files and a mass email went out to everyone who had purchased the book. I had to reformat the first couple of books I had published, though none were as egregious as that first one.
With all of the different ereaders available - not to mention the hidden computer script that some programs like to put in files without the author's permission or even awareness, formatting can be problematic.

Thanks for clearing that up! I really want that function.
I did find in Settings the ability to allow only friends to comment on my reviews. I think that is relatively new.

My regret about not reviewing in reader space is that it reduces the likelihood of revenge reviews.
If you want to know how low some authors will sink read my two recent articles on mmmporium.com about the Rave Reviews Book Club.

That's a valid problem I wouldn't blame on the author..so long as they fixed it when it came to their attention.
I started a group awhile back to find great indie titles, and one of the first things we do to "screen" them is to check the Look Inside feature on Amazon. In the last six months, I've screened (to some extent) over three hundred books. The vast majority of exclusions I've made have not been formatting-related. It's been crazy commas (inserted randomly where they shouldn't be, and conspicuously absent where they should) as well as their/there/they're confusion-type issues that earn rejections.
I'm just saying...

Anyone can write anything, pay to get it publi..."
certainly I agreed with you. I'm sorry that you had a bad experience. And I'm all for honest review. But...

Lol..i'll just put the book down. Or better still never bother to download it in the first place :)


Some of the issues Mahala talks about are not in the highly polished samples you can read by using the Look Inside feature, but crop up in chapter ten. And to read chapter ten, you will have downloaded the book.
And worse, you spent time reading chapters one to nine.

The other book was Charles Kingsley's The Water Babies. I disliked it mainly for stylistic reasons but it is an established children's classic and all time masterpiece by a dead author. Who needs to know that I hated The Waterbabies because the writing, for me, was unbearably pompous? If you check it out you will find the mode to be 3*, the mean to be 3.34, there are significantly more 4s and 5s than 1s and 2s.
Why does it matter when there is so much dissent? What it comes down to for many is personal taste and sensitivity to what is now politically incorrect. Yes, Kingsley had a preachy tone but he was a priest in the Church of England writing in the mid-19th century. The Waterbabies was written out of social concern for children employed by chimney sweeps but take it out of its time bubble and issues of racism rear their ugly heads.
If the exact same book were put out today by an SPA it would probably be panned. Rightfully so? Who can say, it is personal taste.

oh dear!

Could be a wild guess on my part, but it might be a matter of not having professional training on that matter. I bet most indie authors (and most authors, period) were never really taught about book formatting, using styles, indents, em-dashes, and typography in general.
The problem isn't rampant in traditional publishing because publishing houses have professionals who work on that. As an indie author who does almost everything him/herself, it's hard to take every detail into account, and this could be easily overlooked. Perhaps many indies/SPAs go with what they're used to see online, a.k.a. block paragraphs and double breaks in blog/forum posts, and do the same in turn, especially when ebooks are concerned? Not necessarily thinking about checking in published books first?
(A lot of people do that in various other jobs. It's hard not to cringe at the many poorly done Powerpoint presentations, official texts in Comic Sans MS font, and other the-hell-with-spacing-and-indents documents often thrown in our faces. At least, it's hard for me.)

I'm not sure why people do that either. I always indent (I think the industry standard is for the first paragraph of a chapter to by unindented and then all the rest indented) but I agree that it makes the book hard to read. However, my problem is not white space, rather it is in determining where one paragraph stops and another begins.
I read a book recently (I regretably agreed to do a review exchange - I don't know wsy I do it. They always end badly) but the other author would have entire conversations between multiple characters with no new paragraphs. Every print book I have ever read started a new paragraph every time the speaker changed. So in this book it was often unclear just who was saying what. It made the dialog REALLY hard to follow.
I'm not against negative reviews (although I usually give the author a preview and the option for me to post it or not - but then again I'm primarily an author and not a reviewer). Sometimes bad reviews are warranted. What I find more annoying are reviewers who just flat out refuse to even consider sullying their hands with a self-published book EVER irrespective of any indiviidual quality of the work in question. In most cases, I think review bloggers especially can cull, the majoriity of the crap (of which there is admittedly a great deal) just by requiring authors to formally query them for a review and then also check out the author's social media. If the query is professions, the web presence professional, and the book blub interesting, there is a much greater chance that any given indy work is going to be something you want to read. If an author can't adequately deliver those three things, then those should be huge red flags against getting mired in something that is likely to be fatally flawed, but just summarily writing off all indy works is elitist and unfair.

Happened to me. I gave a military book a bad review because the author started out with a rather long info-dump rather than showing it as a scene. The author was a special ops vet and had a good story to tell, but he had a lot of work to do before he could tell it well enough not to bore the reader to death.
His S.O. buddies piled on and savaged me from every side. All they did was to call attention to the bad review and totally ruin the author's chances of selling much of anything. I tried to tell them to back off before they destroyed him completely, but they just doubled down.
Some people just don't have a clue.
That being said, I don't post many bad reviews. I feel that I should read an entire work before reviewing it. But if I get into a really bad book, I can't finish it. I have better things to do with my time. Sooooo, most of my reviews are 3 stars or more because I won't finish a book unless it's interesting.

Haha! I do, but I will also understand that you don't have the visual effect to support you as they have in a broadway show. You'll do your best. You'll have costumes. I will probably enjoy your show very much, but if I expect you to have million dollar props to support your show, I might have expectations a bit too high. There are certainly differences between one that is backed by bottomless pockets and one that is well...not as well supported.
However the quality you provide, you probably cannot compare to those shows. That doesn't mean you suck and you shouldn't be performing now does it?

To many who simply enjoy reading and reviewing, it can seem scary to open themselves to self-published authors. It could be a hassle, a disappointment, and more trouble than it's worth.
If a friend tells you they refused to review for an indie who gave them a hard time, that would probably discourage the practice. No?
Basically, it's all tied to negative assumptions which aren't always applicable to the work in question. The industry needs cleaned up, generally, to repair the public image.

Exactly.
My contention is that by cutting those books some slack based on the author's failure (regardless o..."
you are right from you point of view. but it wouldnt surprise me if there is an indie author writing her story on a type writer and getting her grandchildren to upload it to kindle. block/ indented paragraph???

It was over the course of the whole book, but you'd think that a large publishing house, award winning book that has been out in multiple editions over the past 25 years would have found and fixed them all by now.

+++++++++
How about a cart that becomes a wagon in the next paragraph to become a cart on the next page then a wagon? Which is it, 'cause I think they are two different things.
In the same book (early 13C), has a unmarried heiress sitting next to a bishop, said bishop is going after her legs with his foot, and then it's mentioned the heroine notices the bishop has cold digits. Is the bishop barefoot? At a formal court function with the king in attendance? For realz?
Same book, heroine gets a seriously nasty sword wound to the leg, and she's being attended by the doctor in the cart that is also a wagon, and he's able to stitch her up without a mention of the skirt being lifted with all those soldiers watching. Better yet, after she's put to bed and given sleepy stuff, she can wake up at a drop of the hero in peril, pick up a sword and wield it and run across the castle courtyard to save the day.
Oh, and did I mention that our 13C heroine is the daughter of

When I first published, th..."
Note there's a new feature on the latest editions of the Kindle Fire. Highlight a word and you don't just get the dictionary, you get a popup from the Wiki page (if there is one).

However the quality you provide, you probably cannot compare to those shows. That doesn't mean you suck and you shouldn't be performing now does it?"
To some extent, it does. In the world of writing, there are plenty of venues for those who either can't or won't produce a professional product. Writers should ask themselves if they want to be taken seriously (by publishing and charging money) or if they are merely looking to share a story (posting free on Wattpad, and other like sites).
Certain standards SHOULD be upheld, when a work is sold for profit.

No, it's a lack of interest in the 'business' end of publishing. Just uploading a Word document to KDP and hoping it will result in a readable e-book is tossing a bag of groceries in an oven and hoping that whatever comes out after twenty-five minutes of baking will be edible, not to mention resemble something like food.
One thing about providing a smooth reading experience is adhering to industry standards when formatting text. Every paragraph should be indented, except for the first paragraph after a break (new chapter or new scene). And every new chapter should start on a new page. This is basic, no-frills formatting.
The only concession I do is insert a symbol -o- in every line break, because the line break can change position from user input (when the reader changes the font size, for instance) and a line break at the top or bottom of a page can be overlooked.

I can see where this would discourage a lot of people. As a first time writer, when I pass out my work for review, I'm hoping for the best, but expecting the worst. However, it's the worst - or better stated, most truthful - that writers should appreciate the most. It gives you a perspective that should be analyzed. If one person has that thought, there will be others.
With the limited interactions I have received to date, all the comments, critiques, and observations have all been unique and have opened my eyes a little bit wider each time.
In the end, any author should always respect other's views; especially if requested. It might not be what you want to hear, but you should always keep an open mind and thank the person for taking the time and effort to provide their viewpoint.


But... ??? But what?

One approach is to use Word in the first instance then strip out anything unnecessary by pasting the chapter into notepad. This cuts out excessive line spacing and white space. Then from notepad you can take it into a Createspace template which is formatted in a more acceptable way. The final step (obviously done after proper editing and beta reading of a printed version) would be to check how it all looks after conversion. There are so many virtual devices that it can take quite some time but writers should be able to get proper indents and avoid blank pages. Poetry is an absolute pain on kindle, but prose shouldn't be so hard to format.

Between the fear of wounding others, and the danger of retribution, I've had a hard time recruiting readers. "
I am putting in a word here for recruiting more readers!!! I have reviewed quite a few indie books for The Source and nothing bad has happened to me. The screening process and the reviewing process that Jen has set up have integrity and high standards. More participants would bring more viewpoints to this process.

i totally agree! I was on a writing forum where someone wrote, "On every indie book I have read, there have been at least 5 mistakes/typos (whatever) on the first page. Why would I continue reading?"
There is a prejudice against indies. Which makes me laugh, because anyone first starting anything needs to improve and progress. We are not all alike. I have read some horrible indie work, and i have read some awesome indie work. I have read some horrible NYT best selling work too.
As for the mobi files, I have used the preview option, and it looked perfect! Then when the customers purchased it, it was messed up. It also depends where you upload it. Smashwords for example will have their mobi look one way, and Amazon another.
Earlier in the thread someone said to use the preview option on Amazon/Smashwords to determine if you like the writing style. However, by the time the front matter is flipped through, you might only have a paragraph to determine its worth :( I think they should not count the front matter in the previews. That is my opinion.

But... ??? But what?"
Like I said traditional and indie publishing is different..

All this know-how is available, though. And often for free. But you do need to invest the time.
I'm not a technogeek, but I spent hours learning how to strip Word.doc text and turn raw text into an html document using (free html program) jEdit, then turning the html document into epub and mobi using the free program Calibre.
In the end my epub and mobi files were pretty much flawless, but it took me about fifteen minutes to create one.
And in the end it was all for naught*, as I switched to Scrivener, which I love for the compiling function. And it's easy to save a template that will ensure that all your books have the same formatting.
Yes, learning this stuff is all 'extra work', because it's not necessary to learn when all you want to do is write books and send double-spaced manuscripts to publishers. But if you want to self-publish, you either learn this stuff or pay someone to do your formatting for you.
Or you don't do the work and I'll mention your lack of commitment to the profession in my negative reviews.
(*Learning any skill is never useless. Even if you learn something that's now 'outdated', the acquired knowledge helps you gain a deeper understanding of automated tasks.)

Indeed, keep in mind that Paris Hilton is a NYT best selling "author".

I don't disagree. I think it might be a question of degree. If the first edition of a novel has a few spelling errors here and there it doesn't bother me that much. Those sorts of mistakes happen in even professionally edited and published works. The problem comes when the errors are so persistant that they make the text difficult to read. Any Indy author should be vrey VERY careful that their work is really and truly market ready before they publish, but as a reader I understand that small mistakes can happen too. Any text loaded with grammar, spelling, and or plotting holes and cliche devises demonstrates an author who was not really ready to print.


This is true. Of course, but the same token, if an author has been sloppy with their actual writing, it is very likely that he/she will be neglectful in other areas as well - such as social media and platform. It never hurts to give an author's webpage a gander before buying their book. If it's amatuerish or nonexistant, that should raise a big read flag about how seriously they take their writing.


Amen!
One word...
Eragon

Allow me to speak up for the much maligned Smashwords. Their style guide gives good advice on stripping out nasty code insertion by Word and more to the point stresses that block paragraphs are for websites and non-fiction. Unfortunately their hardline Autovetter rules does not allow for the fact that most trad books begin each chapter/short story with a block paragraph. And when it comes to their Meatgrinder's mobi conversion they deserve all the maligning as it cannot even cope with an accent on café.

But boy, no matter what I did, when I uploaded my epub to Nook it sticks the line space back in. A Nook thing maybe?

Wait, so you're saying apostrophes cost extra?

Yep I paid with my hard money to get someone to do that for me.

But... ??? But what?"
Like I said traditional and indie publishing is different.."
The statement I made was that I backed honest reviews - a book is a book in my opinion. I have no intention of making allowances for indie published books. There is only one arena and they threw in their hat, so they play by the same rules as everyone else or go home.

You have no idea what you are talking about. Do you read books? I've purchased over 1,000 traditionally published novels and the quality has been consistently good to very good. I purchased 12 indie books and I can't read 7 of them because of major editing issues and bad writing.

But... ??? But what?"
Like I said traditional and indie publishing is diff..."
Oh dear this could go on forever. Okay I respect your point of view :) but.. and lets just leave it at my but..okay :)
Books mentioned in this topic
The Reflections of Queen Snow White (other topics)The Reflections of Queen Snow White (other topics)
Chances (other topics)
Lucky (other topics)
The Little Black Fish (other topics)
I read the book because someone mentioned that my suspense fiction (which have a romance between the protagonists) could be considered romantic suspense. As I usually don't read romance, I was curious whether my books could indeed by considered romantic suspense. So I sought out a 'romantic suspense' book. The book in question was a free download with glowing reviews, so probably pretty representative of the genre.
As it is, I still have topic where I ask for romantic suspense recommendations, just hoping they're not all as flawed as this book was.
Heather wrote: "You do say subjective things, like, 'what grown man would be embarrassed by female hygiene products?' How do you know that absolutely no grown men ever are or have been? On this minor point I'd like to say I know plenty as it happens. I might think they're silly for being that way, but men like that exist. And if I pulled one out on a date? I'd probably laugh and also feel a bit embarrassed. There, I've said it. I'm juvenile ;)..."
There are no objective opinions, only subjective. So, yes, my review is subjective, that doesn't diminish the validity.
re: feminine hygiene products:
I think it's probably culturally biased. In Europe, men buy tampons for their wives without blinking, but apparently where you come from grown men and women working in a tough as nails federal agency get flustered when a tampon falls from a woman's purse. If it was a used tampon, I could understand the embarrassment, but over here an unused tampon is like an unused tissue.
And I do believe you there are immature adults who titter and bluster like adolescents when confronted with feminine hygiene products, but I doubt these adults work at an FBI-like federal agency.
re: trashing the 'hard work':
I write in my review:
The author wrote a book that is supposed to be playing in the demanding world of federal agencies and it's totally unbelievable for anyone with even a passing knowledge of law enforcement.
If she'd made the female protagonist a civilian who gets dragged into a federal investigation and gets protected by a rookie federal agent, it would've been slightly believable, but insecure hysterical women don't become directors of federal agencies.
Pointing that out is not 'trashing' a novel, but merely addressing the believability. As to the 'hard work' of the author, I doubt if she ever had any contact with anyone working in a federal agency, or even opened a book on handguns, before she wrote her book.