Is it time to stop "being nice?"

[Emma]

But if they had "a few editors" why would they be writing "My nonna (grandmother), Cosimo Pater Patriae, was a very nice man" ?

[Justin]

Whoa, let's back off on the whole editing process as I think that can be discussed in an entirely different thread. Though I do see where it ties in, it may prove to be a side tracked topic that gets a lot of hot heads in here.

[Christine]

Emma wrote: "But if they had "a few editors" why would they be writing "My nonna (grandmother), Cosimo Pater Patriae, was a very nice man" ?"

Please note I said major publishers. There are small publishers out there, who are notorious for not editing books.

I think you have to agree that comparing the number of self-published that are unreadable against a few flawed published is kind of a stretch. The self-published I've experienced were unedited, had plots going in every direction and couldn't decide on a Point of View.

[Christine]

Justin wrote: "Whoa, let's back off on the whole editing process as I think that can be discussed in an entirely different thread. Though I do see where it ties in, it may prove to be a side tracked topic that ge..."

You are absolutely correct - lets stay on topic. We were trying to get honest reviews so we can maintain a standard that provides good reading for all readers.

[Jen]

Linda, that was very entertaining to read. I've seen a lot of that - people criticizing authors for negatively reviewing other authors. People have STANDARDS! What the hell is wrong with that?!

[Jen]

Justin wrote: "Whoa, let's back off on the whole editing process as I think that can be discussed in an entirely different thread. Though I do see where it ties in, it may prove to be a side tracked topic that ge..."

Editing is a major factor in unreadable books...the ones I am suggesting deserve more negative reviews.

[Sherri]

Linda wrote: "Sherri wrote: "This whole topic has me wondering just how big of an issue this is. I mean, out of every 10 less than stellar reviews you post how many of those do you have authors coming back and c..."

I know authors who comment on bad reviews exist. I've seen it a time or two. My question was more to how common it was. While I do write reviews...sometimes negative ones...myself, with my writing schedule I don't get to read as often as I'd like. If I get to leave four reviews a month I'm doing good. Because of that, maybe I'm not experiencing the full brunt of it. That's why I was trying to get an idea of how often it's happening.

[Jen]

No, there isn't much we can do about the major publishers. Which is a pity. Their standards are slipping and I think that only encourages a lack of attention to detail by indies...

[S.]

As long as you are not expecting a five star hotel service compared to a fastfood service I'm fine. But if you put the same standard for a USD10 to a 99sen book, then to me there's a serious flaw there.

[Jen]

I suppose price does have an impact. I'm more aggravated when I pay 3.99 for a book with serious flaws than when I pick up a 99 cent-er that needs work. Again, readers expect to pay for quality. IF we pay...we better be getting that quality.

[Justin]

Even some small publishers are becoming picky about who they let in. A friend of mine got turned down from a small press because they said her work lacked substance(I think that was the word) and very basic grammatical errors.I thought damn, if the small presses are becoming strict I can only imagine what that means for the traditional ones.

[Justin]

*had basic grammatical errors.

[Rhoda]

Y'all have been chatty today in this wonderful conversation. I agree with mostly everything, as I read most of the posts.

I can't stand when an author argues. What is there to argue about? If someone likes vanilla ice cream and you do not, is it worth arguing over? no. One author wrote "It isn't my fault you did not read the blurb" What the heck is that about? Then her friends chimed in attacking the reviewer. It just looks bad.

I think it was Linda who said way back that you need to have betas, do editing, etc. But sometimes even when you do that, you are relying on the opinions of the betas. If you change or add to your story because of them, other reviewers might think the outcome was too excessive or whatever.

I have messaged reviewers privately to answer any questions or comment on the things they stated. In a nice way to explain whatever they were questioning. As an author, I do understand that no one wants a negative review. Therefore, I will not post 1 or 2 stars. I have written to the authors and explained to them why I found it to be undeserving of at least a three star and offered to write a review if they ever re-write the work.

I like feedback, though. In my latest book, I just received a great review, but there was a comment he thought i went too deep into something. So in the sequel, I will take that into consideration.

I love reviews that conflict with each other though. Makes me laugh. One person will write "this was not descriptive enough" another writes "too much description made it boring" lol

[Jen]

Mahala wrote: "Yes, but I think eventually those authors are going to ask for more money for their work and if they are reviewed by a laxer standard because the book is "only" 99 cents then they might not be happy if they are reviewed more stringently when they ask $7.99 for their newest work."

Good point.

[Jen]

Rhoda, putting on your "reader hat," don't you like to see the one and two star reviews to get a thorough picture of the work you are considering buying?

***I agree with you about the conflicting reviews. They can be extremely amusing.

[S.]

Linda wrote: "S. wrote: "As long as you are not expecting a five star hotel service compared to a fastfood service I'm fine. But if you put the same standard for a USD10 to a 99sen book, then to me there's a ser..."

price has everything to do with resources. like it or not higher priced goods are more likely to be good than lower priced goods. Say a similar priced indie and publisher produced a similar product. I'll more likely to be more lax with less expectation toward the indie than then publisher. But then again that's just me. In the end it boils down to your expectation too.

[Rhoda]

Jen... I understand what you are saying. but even with my reader hat, if a book only has four glowing reviews, and has been out a year then there is something wrong with that book. Do I find the one stars amusing sometimes, even informative? Absolutely. But even the star rating is subjective. I just saw last night two different reviewers say almost the exact same thing in the review--- one gave a three star, one gave a one star. Maybe I put more credibility in the wording of the review, than the rating system? idk.

Linda-- I freaking hate present first person. In one book, I used third person past through the first 75%, then I turned it to first person past in the last portion-- only to depict a separation from the previous stories--- it sort have tied the past & present together. But I will probably never do it again.

I hate every detail being given to: I am sitting on the toilet wondering what to make for dinner, the baby is crying, my husband is tapping his finger, ---omg. I swear I just read this lol. There are some things that should not be in print LOL

[Jen]

Rhoda, yes, the wording of reviews ultimately determines the value they put on the book. I typically ignore ratings that don't come with some text. Anyone can click a star, and I've rated accidentally. It happens.

As to first person present tense - I've read it by a handful of authors, and only really enjoyed it two or three times. The first was unpleasantly jarring. The second, I got into it faster.

Some styles will eventually grow on a person, if given the opportunity. Others...won't. Ever read third person present tense? I'm confident that I will NEVER enjoy this...

[S.]

Linda wrote: "S. wrote: "price has everything to do with resources. like it or not higher priced goods are more likely to be good than lower priced goods...."

And I'm saying that with books, price has absolutel..."

Ha I think we are talking the same thing here. But you are talking from your point of view of your own experience and I'm talking from my point of view of other people point of view. For the life of me I can't understand it when people expected a smily bubbly cashier at a fast food working on a minimal wage and expected a five star hotel service..that's just beyond me..

its like expecting to hear an orchestra from a lone basker with a guitar..how is that going to be possible??

[Jen]

Interesting point, S., but at the same time, Linda's rebuttal makes sense.

Some authors use the 99 cent price tag as a lure for the first book in a series, or a debut novel, to get attention. Others throw forty pages of wildly unimaginative crap together, and price it low to reflect the lack of quality. YET - my time IS valuable. I don't want to waste any of it on a painful read.

[S.]

Jen wrote: "Interesting point, S., but at the same time, Linda's rebuttal makes sense.

Some authors use the 99 cent price tag as a lure for the first book in a series, or a debut novel, to get attention. Othe..."

Well I don't know. If its on kindle you can make your decision from the "Look Inside", on whether to waste your time or not. But more often than not I found people nit picking on commas and spelling when as a reader Im more interested at the story. I mean if I want a finely cut treated gem I'll go to a proper jewellery, Tiffany perhaps, but if I'm looking for a raw gem I'll go to a rough dealer or to the mine. Similar to the X-factor or American Idol. If I want a recorded version I'll just buy a CD and not be ranting in my living rooms telling everybody how bad that amateur singer on X-factor or Idol? In the end its all about expectation. And I'd rather focus on the positive rather than the negative :)

[S.]

OMG! I'm outta here! This forum is soooo addictive!

[S.]

Linda wrote: "S. wrote: "Ha I think we are talking the same thing here. ..."


No, we're not saying the same thing at all.

You're saying I should have different, separate, lower standards for cheap books becaus..."

Oh oh! I never said that. All I'm saying is indie and traditionally published books are different fields and therefore should be treated differently. Yeah any indie authors could put any price they want but good luck with selling! And like I said readers could always take a peek before buying. So if they(the readers) got their time wasted they have no one to blame but themselves!

But I'm sticking to my gun. I'm going to take offend with anyone trying to be Mr Know it all and beating up new authors to smithereen for minor details that could be corrected, mind you with a click of a button these days, when that new authors had an interesting story to tell :) And from my experience indie authors have lots to tell and they are mostly wonderful stories that perhaps requires a bit of polishing in some instances.

So yeah go ahead and get an honest critics out there! I don't think anybody would disagree with that!

[Rhoda]

S. wrote: "OMG! I'm outta here! This forum is soooo addictive!"

HAHAH.. glad im not the only one!

One thing about pricing is that some sites that promote books require the author to set the price low before they will promote it. Bookbub for example. If the book is free, for one day of publicity in my genre the price is $250. If the book is $2.99 they want $900-- for the same day. Some companies want the author to lower the price during blog tours. I do get the concept of you get what you pay for, but at the same time, sometimes an author is forced to put it on sale for a time. So "free" does not always mean fast food vs lobster and steak.

I don't think it is just indie authors that need work either. There are best selling authors whose books you can tell they didn't "feel" or "care about" while writing.

I admit, I get distracted by mistakes. I read a book on smashwords that was really good.. a spy/military novel. But in the very beginning, the book stated that President Reagan signed a law in 1991 (he used a real law number). The problem? Reagan was not president in 91, and the law number had nothing to do with what the book said it did. Other than that... the book was pretty good. The whole time, my mind kept thinking about reagan and how the author needed to fix that. LOL

[Heather]

Personally, I have to say that I do feel bad leaving terrible reviews and never do it. But then, if I feel a book is really awful I don't finish it so what is there to say? I think tastes vary so much and I read a lot of bad reviews, particularly here on Goodreads, for books which I have enjoyed very much and I think some of them go too far or are often irrelevant and even just downright bitchy. As a 1st time author myself, I have just spent almost two years putting my heart and soul into a book. I've paid a lot of money for editors, proofreaders etc and rewritten it around 27 times. I know that my art - comedy - is so subjective that there will be those who get it and those who don't. A bad review is a lot like publisher rejections, just one persons opinion. I am sure many of you have read books people recommended to you because they loved them and thought they were 'blah'. I know I have. I just think it's a tough old world out there for writers and it's too easy to trash something simply because it just isn't your thing. I'd say, don't be mean. The only exception is when something is clearly so bad grammatically, typo-wise etc that the author clearly hasn't paid attention to detail and just thrown out a book not worthy of anyone's cash. That is unfair to the reader and worth commenting on. But then, if you're a self published author you can pull the book and rewrite if you see that.
Another point I'd like to make is that reviews don't help me decide whether or not to read a book nowadays, unless they are all bad. And I do think some people write bad reviews for sport and to pull an author down a peg or two. I've seen that a lot. If you're any other kind of business on Amazon (or anywhere for that matter) you can request that irrelevant, bad reviews be removed. Authors (still a business too) cannot. Think before you trash someone's work.

[Martyn]

S. wrote: "All I'm saying is indie and traditionally published books are different fields and therefore should be treated differently."

No, they're not. They're both books. Written by authors. To be an author is a profession.

If someone can't (or doesn't want to) adhere to the standards readers expect from books, they should publish their work in a different way, like blogs.

Or they should accept getting slammed for publishing blog articles as if they conform to book standards.

Before you start again about 'wonderful stories that just need a little polishing', I think it's disrespectful to readers to pass over the polishing phase before you publish a book. And a wonderful story made unreadable (because the spelling and grammar and formatting is all over the place) won't make for a pleasurable reading experience.

[Martyn]

Heather wrote: "Personally, I have to say that I do feel bad leaving terrible reviews and never do it. But then, if I feel a book is really awful I don't finish it so what is there to say?"

"This book is awful, and I couldn't finish it, because: (your list of reasons)"

Heather wrote: "I think tastes vary so much and I read a lot of bad reviews, particularly here on Goodreads, for books which I have enjoyed very much and I think some of them go too far or are often irrelevant and even just downright bitchy..."

We're talking negative reviews, not bad reviews. Negative reviews are the polar opposite of positive reviews. Where the positive review lists why the book succeeds, the negative review lists why the book fails.

If you check my 'stopped reading' reviews (example), you see it's less a matter of 'taste' but more a matter of 'insulting the intelligence of the reader'.

[S.]

Mahala wrote: "S. wrote: "Linda wrote: "S. wrote: "Ha I think we are talking the same thing here. ..."


No, we're not saying the same thing at all.

You're saying I should have different, separate, lower standar..."

well that would be an article then wouldn't it? all I'm saying is if I want a "clean" book then I'd expected to get that from the traditional publisher. For the indie I'd expect to get an okay book with slight mistakes here and there. But of course there are also flawless indie book out that..and of course lots of crappy one too. All I'm saying the expectation would differs then for an indie book. We are after all living in a real world not an idealistic one. And clearly most people here have different expectations, vested interest aside. But if you expect all indie books to be flawless that would be a tall order and you'll end up putting a low rated reviews. Is it fair? Its for you to decide.

Say you got a similar author work. One she sent traditionally and being edited and all and the other she published herself. The traditional is priced at USD10 and then the other is USD0.99. Says she is rated 4 the traditional way, then do you think she is going to get 4 too for the self published work? I'm likely to think she is going to get 5, mistakes and all :)

[S.]

Rhoda wrote: "S. wrote: "OMG! I'm outta here! This forum is soooo addictive!"

HAHAH.. glad im not the only one!

One thing about pricing is that some sites that promote books require the author to set the pric..."

that's my sentiment exactly. lucky me i'm able to overlook such things and enjoy the reading :)

[S.]

Martyn (a.k.a. M'sieur Sang Froid) wrote: "S. wrote: "All I'm saying is indie and traditionally published books are different fields and therefore should be treated differently."

No, they're not. They're both books. Written by authors. To ..."

to me its all about pricing. nothing disrespectful at all to the readers. after all nobody is forcing them to buy what ever garbage is out there. and of course a garbage to some might be a treasure to others. just sayin'. to me that is the spirit of indie. if you want to think inside the box, continue with the traditional publishing.

[Heather]

Usually (with just one exception) if I didn't finish it, it's because it was not for me and I don't feel qualified to comment on whether it will be for everyone else. I will rate it, I just won't comment. I have left a review for a book I didn't finish but in this particular case, I acknowledged that I didn't understand the subject area and felt lost. I didn't feel this was in any way a failing of the author. If I enjoy a book I want to reward the author by saying thank you, I enjoyed this. I didn't finish reading your review Martyn, because I'm one of those people who don't enjoy reading lengthy, negative reviews. I feel a lot of sympathy for the author here, particularly as you said at the start this was not a genre you enjoy. Why would you read it in this case? You do say subjective things, like, 'what grown man would be embarrassed by female hygiene products?' How do you know that absolutely no grown men ever are or have been? On this minor point I'd like to say I know plenty as it happens. I might think they're silly for being that way, but men like that exist. And if I pulled one out on a date? I'd probably laugh and also feel a bit embarrassed. There, I've said it. I'm juvenile ;) These kind of reviews are industry norm, authors are told they have to accept it. When an author spends one to two years of their life and a lot of money bringing out something they believed in and worked damn hard on only to see it trashed in a scathing review, I feel for them, I genuinely do. I empathise and I don't believe any authors write books intent on insulting the intelligence of the reader. Yes, of course there are a lot of bad books out there, so don't read them. Vote with your feet. But quite honestly, the ones I have read and thought were bad, I haven't also thought 'I don't like this so no one will.' There will always be bad/negative reviews just as there will always be reviewers reading books in a genre they don't like to then leave a scathing review. Personally, I start every new book with hope and optimism because it looked from the write up like something I'd enjoy. Life is too short to do it any other way. I would just like to leave my opinion and say no more here. I don't like to see an author - or any artist for that matter - have their work thoroughly trashed and I don't enjoy reading an author's work being thoroughly trashed. And, as the reviewers say, I'm entitled to my opinion.

[Katie]

Jen wrote: "Linda wrote: "Holding back on the negative comments is still part of that "being nice" syndrome. And if that's how you want to review, you're more than welcome to. But I think what a lot of us are ..."

High Five!!

[Alexandra]

Linda, you said, 'Reviews can be made viewable only by the reviewers "friends."', how can I do that? I've wanted to do that since I've joined Goodreads, but Goodreads turned down my request for that function. Have they added it now? The closest I've found when looking recently is the ability to set it so that only friends can comment on my reviews. I recall reading a couple days ago a statement from Goodreads that reviews will always be public. If indeed I can change my settings so that only friends can read them I would LOVE to.

[Katie]

I am fairly new at this reviewing game. As a self-published author myself, I have, at times, struggled with the question of whether to be honest or kind. Ultimately though as an author I want people to give me honest reviews. How will I ever develop my writing if all anyone ever tells me is how wonderful my book is?

For my day job I'm also a teacher and I have learnt very quickly the importance of not overpraising. There is a growing culture in educational circles not to criticize students because it might damage their self-esteem. Without constructive feedback, how do we ever learn and grow? :) Good topic!!

[Alexandra]

So many good insights and comments on this thread!

I reject the assertion that negative reviews harm the author. Reviews are to assist consumers, to help them decide how to spend their book purchasing dollars so that they are more likely to buy books they enjoy, and less likely to waste money on books they will not.

This does not "harm" an author. I believe false and dishonest glowing reviews do harm authors, and certainly harm the consumers who are tricked by them.

Back in the day when professional reviews were pretty much all we had I ignored them,finding them worthless to me. I still do. Prior to Goodreads I also found Amazon reviews mostly worthless and often misleading. Goodreads was far superior, as it contained a higher degree of truly honest reader reviews.

But, that seems to be changing a bit. I see more of what appears to be false glowing reviews here, and some of the very good honest reviewers have been turned off by all the attacks and and drama. I'd hate to see that trend grow.

Personally I read the reviews I find interesting and helpful and ignore those I don't. I've read negative reviews that peaked my interest to read the book, and positive reviews that gave me enough to know that book wasn't something I would like. I ignore glowing reviews that appear to be nothing more than author fan "squee!". I ignore star ratings that don't give any indication of the reason. I've disliked immensely books that are greatly popular, and loved books that are not.

In short, I have a brain, I know what I tend to like, and it isn't necessarily the same as what each and every individual reader likes.

I don't lie or mislead people in my reviews, and I don't want to be lied to or mislead. I think that kind of thing hurts authors far more than any negative review, and I know it certainly harms readers.

Goodreads has been (IMO) the one place readers could honestly tell other readers what they think about a book. That for me has been it's strength. I'd hate to see that change so that Goodreads became just another site full of glowing 4 and 5 star reviews and people intimidated out of posting anything else, and anything other than their honest opinion and thoughts.

If that occurred I'd go back to just ignoring most reviews again.

Not all positive reviews are as equal as some authors appear to think. When readers find reviews suspicious, unhelpful, untrustworthy, they will be dismissed. That may be by specific venue of the review, by author of the review, by content of the review, etc. The more readers are burned and learn to find certain types of reviews untrustworthy for them, the less reviews have impact in selling a book. So HONEST reader reviews are in the long run also in the best interest of authors.

Reviews may assist in helping sell a book, but that is not the purpose of a review.

Reviews may have some impact upon visibility, and that probably impacts sales to an extent. But readers in general are not as stupid, gullible, or hive minded as a few whiny and entitled authors seem to think we are.

[Jen]

I think, in some ways, we've become so sensitive to others feelings that we end up walking on eggshells around everyone. While it's good to be "kind," this attitude just isn't constructive. Show respect, but be honest.

[S.]

Linda wrote: "S. wrote: "Linda wrote: "S. wrote: "Ha I think we are talking the same thing here. ..."


No, we're not saying the same thing at all.

You're saying I should have different, separate, lower standar..."

Nope! I never said that 99cent book are crappy and that you should shut up and not to say anything about it because its 99cent. All I'm saying factor in the price and the effort and the economic constraint faced by indie authors and the resources at the disposal of the traditional publishers..

Sure go ahead and rate the book the way you like it, but don't feel like you need to rant if you were "constantly being scolded for being mean, for not being fair, for not thinking of the author's feelings"..

[S.]

Linda wrote: "S. wrote: "Linda wrote: "S. wrote: "Ha I think we are talking the same thing here. ..."


No, we're not saying the same thing at all.

You're saying I should have different, separate, lower standar..."

Jen wrote: "I think, in some ways, we've become so sensitive to others feelings that we end up walking on eggshells around everyone. While it's good to be "kind," this attitude just isn't constructive. Show re..."


"You're saying I should have different, separate, lower standards for cheap books because they're cheap, as if that's all there is to it. Cheap = crummy = shut up and don't complain that it's crummy"

Nope! Never said that.

[Jen]

And now we're fighting...

If I'm not mistaken: S., the price point determines your expectations, correct? And, Linda, you believe anything calling itself a book, no matter the cost, should adhere to certain standards, yes?

Let's just agree to disagree...

[K.W.]

I know the main idea is that indie/self published authors are prejudged as automatically going to have nothing but issues in their published works. Look at the posts here. It is assumed the indie authors are the poorly written books. I think if someone is aware that it is an indie book they go in waiting for the typo, problematic grammar or heaven forbid a formatting issue. And then when they come across one the mind says "Ah-ha! The slacker! How dare they try to get published!" If that is what you are looking for you will find it. We are all clear, however that the most recent Harry Potter editions have typos? Right? These are books that have unlimited publishing resources and they have typos.
I am not saying I haven't read self published books where I say to myself, "Where was the editor/friend to go over this with you." One of my biggest pet peeves is getting the mobi file and nobody even glanced at it once it was formatted to see if there was an issue. That falls under the "come on people! This is your dream. Do a little more work." category. But even then I try and take the story at face value. If it is so bad it distracts from the story I mention it in my review. If not then I leave it alone. Hyper critical people will always find a flaw. They go in looking for them. When I read it is so I can enjoy myself. I am not looking for someone to make a mistake so I can play gotcha. Sometimes I have come across things that hit my "oh no they didn't" hot spot and I remark on it in my review. But for the most part I am trying to enjoy myself. That is me. Other people are perfectionists and they are allowed their opinion too. I think if they took the time to actually read a book and review it, their opinion is valid. Nice or biting. For new authors it is tough when one out of ten reviews cuts to the quick. But the book is still out there and when it becomes one out of 100 they may have a different opinion on that review.

[S.]

Katie wrote: "I am fairly new at this reviewing game. As a self-published author myself, I have, at times, struggled with the question of whether to be honest or kind. Ultimately though as an author I want peo..."

That's an interesting observation. Overpraising certainly would not help. But you could go along the line: While there are spelling mistakes, missing comma here and there I found that Mr bla bla bla had an interesting thing to tell. But he could do with a little bit of bla bla bla..

More often than not however the feedback would go along the line: He didn't even know where to place his comma and fullstops and therefore I wouldn't be recommending this book to anyone..ever..

I mean you don't want your students to dread to ever come to you for a feedbacks now wouldn't you? That wouldn't be constructive..

[Martyn]

S. wrote: "all I'm saying is if I want a "clean" book then I'd expected to get that from the traditional publisher. For the indie I'd expect to get an okay book with slight mistakes here and there. But of course there are also flawless indie book out that..and of course lots of crappy one too. All I'm saying the expectation would differs then for an indie book. We are after all living in a real world not an idealistic one. And clearly most people here have different expectations, vested interest aside. But if you expect all indie books to be flawless that would be a tall order and you'll end up putting a low rated reviews. Is it fair? Its for you to decide..."

I don't expect 'flawless', because trade published books are flawed too.
I'm talking about a minimum of requirements. I can live with 5-10 typos in a 100K novel. I cannot abide 100 typos in a 20K novella.
A few misspelled words are okay, but consistently confusing they're/their or its/it's and I will consider the book unedited.
If I came across 'peeling bells' or 'peek my interest' or 'decapitated head', I know the author doesn't deserve my time and attention.

[Yzabel]

Katie wrote: "For my day job I'm also a teacher and I have learnt very quickly the importance of not overpraising. There is a growing culture in educational circles not to criticize students because it might damage their self-esteem. Without constructive feedback, how do we ever learn and grow? :) Good topic!!"

Oh so true.
All it does is inflating egos, causing people to develop a sense of entitlement, and making young people grow into adults who crumble at the first set-back.
The parallel with BBAs is definitely obvious.

[S.]

Jen wrote: "And now we're fighting...

If I'm not mistaken: S., the price point determines your expectations, correct? And, Linda, you believe anything calling itself a book, no matter the cost, should adhere..."

I'll take you on your offer Jen :)

[Misfit]

Janis wrote: "So many good insights and comments on this thread!

I reject the assertion that negative reviews harm the author. Reviews are to assist consumers, to help them decide how to spend their book purch..."

+100

And speaking of higher quality in editing in books from the big publishers and getting what you paid for? I don't have a list at hand, but I've come across a fair number of books from those publishers littered with stupid typos. One Julie Garwood book had the heroine grabbing the hero's 'label' on his dinner jacket for the big kiss. In another Garwood book, Ransom, both the hero and heroine's names were spelled incorrectly - and in the same chapter.

No matter what price point a book is being sold for (even free), I would expect the author to know the difference between there and their, you're and your. Same for formatting - and that is something I will point out in a review. Some readers don't care about bad grammar. Some readers care about historical accuracy and others like made-up wallpaper historicals. Some like lots of sex and no plot, others want the opposite.

Which is why reader reviews are helpful to get the right book for each reader.

[Jen]

S. wrote: "I'll take you on your offer Jen :)"

Thank you!!!

Personally, I think we're all getting something from this thread. I'd hate to see it dissolve into name-calling and personal attacks!

[S.]

Martyn (a.k.a. M'sieur Sang Froid) wrote: "S. wrote: "all I'm saying is if I want a "clean" book then I'd expected to get that from the traditional publisher. For the indie I'd expect to get an okay book with slight mistakes here and there...."

Yup simple don't download and dont buy it..no time would be wasted :) The whole idea of indie publishing is that anyone could publish :) Yes that would include the school dropout and those with the PhD.

[Jen]

Okay, I have to say this:

S., THAT'S the problem with indie books! Anyone can publish without any time, effort, skill, or common sense. AND THEY DO.

Self publishing used to be considered "vanity" publishing. You HAD to spent money (typically a fair amount) to get your work put into a tangible form. This prevented (most) people from scribbling 50,000 incoherent ideas into one illegible form and charging for it.

I'm a reader who WANTS standards. I get tired of being attracted by blurbs to stories my eight year old niece would have taken more care in writing. The term "publishing" implies a certain level of professionalism.

I'm with Martyn on this. 5-10 errors in 100,000 pages. More than that, and I'm regretting that I put out (any) money for it.

[S.]

Jen wrote: "S. wrote: "I'll take you on your offer Jen :)"

Thank you!!!

Personally, I think we're all getting something from this thread. I'd hate to see it dissolve into name-calling and personal attacks!"

Oh you are too lovely a host Jen for that to happen ;)

[Jen]

S. wrote: "Jen wrote: "S. wrote: "I'll take you on your offer Jen :)"

Thank you!!!

Personally, I think we're all getting something from this thread. I'd hate to see it dissolve into name-calling and personal attacks!"

Oh you are too lovely a host Jen for that to happen ;)"

I don't know. I've been witness to some serious meltdowns...