Q&A with Josh Lanyon discussion
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Adrien English series challenge #1: Fatal Shadows
Mod
I recall someone proposing to start the discussion on the next book the weekend before the official week, but I don’t remember if it remained only a suggestion."
Why don't we start the new discussion already on weekend since there're so many of us hopping from foot to foot by now. We can merrily spend our next weekends discussing two AE books at a time ... :-D
Mymymble wrote: "Linda ~ chock full of hoot, just a little bit of nanny ~ wrote: "Loretta wrote: "That last scene was pretty intense. Someone referred to it as rape, but it really wasn't. Adrien was reluctant and c..."Umm, he let Bruce have sex with him because he was scared. At this point in time, he knows Bruce is a killer, and has been threatening him. I would classify it as rape as Adrien was forced to do something he didn't want to do. He didn't want to have sex with Bruce then, but he did because he was afraid what would happen if he said no.
Melissa wrote: "Umm, he let Bruce have sex with him because he was scared. At this point in time, he knows Bruce is a killer, and has been threatening him. I would classify it as rape as Adrien was forced to do something he didn't want to do. He didn't want to have sex with Bruce then, but he did because he was afraid what would happen if he said no."Exactly. It was a "choice" based on survival, he chose the less of two evils.
Since we're discussing it, do you think Adrien was too fast to say yes to Bruce?
I was pondering this as I read the scene the other day, I know he was scared and all, but couldn't he stall in another way without putting himself through that?
Maybe telling Bruce that he was still shaken because of the stalker and asking for something else, a cup of tea, a drink, a massage, anything, to give Jake time to intervene.
Do you think it was the only way he had to ensure his relative safety or he just jumped to that conclusion because of the extreme situation he was in?
Johanna wrote: "Elena wrote: "Speaking of ADT, do we start discussing it on Monday or before?I recall someone proposing to start the discussion on the next book the weekend before the official week, but I don’t r..."
Yes, great idea!
Mymymble wrote: "Melissa wrote: "Linda ~ chock full of hoot, just a little bit of nanny ~ wrote: "And I keep forgetting that Jake is supposed to be blond."Yes, he may be written as a blond, but I never picture hi..."
Oh! I always pictured Angus with red hair.
Mymymble wrote: "Elena wrote: "Melissa wrote: "Umm, he let Bruce have sex with him because he was scared. At this point in time, he knows Bruce is a killer, and has been threatening him. I would classify it as rape..."I think he was afraid certainly, but he also saw it as his chance to obtain evidence. He definitely didn't consent to no condom.
Mymymble wrote: "Elena wrote: "Melissa wrote: "Umm, he let Bruce have sex with him because he was scared. At this point in time, he knows Bruce is a killer, and has been threatening him. I would classify it as rape..."I thought Adrien had sex with Bruce because he felt he had to keep up with the lie he told Bruce (ran off to Bruce's house instead of waiting for him to come at home cos he's scared), his life was in danger, he felt no choice. I kind of considered this as an undercover doing everything he can to keep up with his cover... he certainly didn't enjoy the sex, but also feeling sorry for Bruce despite of everything.
Elena wrote: "Mymymble wrote: "In FS I think Chan knew from a few chapters in. Certainly well before the end."Do you mean he knew something was up or he knew for certain?
If Chan knew for certain so early in ..."
I would put it around the time Jake sprinted off to the ranch in ADT, for sure. And he was probably suspicious earlier than that. Maybe he started getting more concrete theories when he joined Adrien's writing group.
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Yes, he may be written as a blond, but I never picture hi..."
Wait... Angus has fair hair? Long fair hair? How on earth did I miss that? I definitely pictured him as dark haired, though not black hair. How odd.
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I hope you enjoy it!
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I think for Adrien, it may have started out as needing to keep up with the lie. At least while they were still outside. But once inside, once they got closer and closer to having intercourse, that's when things crossed the line. IMO.
I agree, Elena. I don't see how Chan could know anything based on what we see in FS. I think at most he is surprised at Jake's actions and reactions. He can't possibly know the reason behind it though. Or - as you said - he would be "extremely intuitive." If something happened off page, that's cheating and doesn't count as were weren't privy to that info."I thought the same, that Chan wasn't catching on to Jake, it was more of a surprise at Jake's actions/reactions. I do think Chan realized what was going on with them off the page though. Chan was involved in writing group after FS so he got to know Adrien more. And once J & A stopped "seeing" each other Chan noticed the complete 180 in Jake.
I don't think Jake was watching Adrien and Bruce in bed, but I totally believe he HEARD them. I think Jake was plotting murder of Bruce and possibly Adrien. Bruce, because he dared to touch Adrien, and Adrien because he dared to let himself get into this situation and let Bruce touch him.....he he. Adrien was definitely up for murder from Jake. Its funny because I got déjà vu when Jake tells/threatens Adrien to STAY OUT OF IT. Poor Jake, since the beginning hes been trying to keep Adrien safe but the man just keeps running straight into danger's arms.
Elena wrote: "do you think Adrien was too fast to say yes to Bruce?"I did find it a...unique...choice. I think it probably progressed in a way that Adrien didn't feel he could say no. He had had sex with Bruce before, and he was trying to keep up the façade of not knowing anything about Bruce being a killer. I know we aren't supposed to talk about the author's choice (I read that somewhere) about how they wrote the story. Ignoring that, I think Josh wrote it this way to add to the drama, the scariness of the scene, the angst of having Adrien sleep with a killer knowingly, of having Jake have to hear it.
It certainly kept my eyes glued to the page to see what happened. It's shock factor.
Jordan wrote: "Mymymble wrote: "Melissa wrote: "Linda ~ chock full of hoot, just a little bit of nanny ~ wrote: "And I keep forgetting that Jake is supposed to be blond."Yes, he may be written as a blond, but I..."
I missed it too Jordan! I pictured him with black hair (even if he dyed it), and his long pinky nails and goth clothes.
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Also, when someone you aren't close to feints on the floor, would you pick them up before attempting to wake them? Jake does. Adrien feints in Pierre's apartment, the floor smacks Him In the face and he wakes up on the couch.
Regardless of the fact that I have no upper body strength, I wouldn't pick up another adult. If it was a child, that might be different. Still, this stuck out for me. But Adrien casually mentions it, so it's easy to miss.
Mymymble wrote: "Jordan wrote: "Mymymble wrote: "Melissa wrote: "Linda ~ chock full of hoot, just a little bit of nanny ~ wrote: "And I keep forgetting that Jake is supposed to be blond."Yes, he may be written as..."
I had to look up the first description of Angus. "Angus was a pale, gangly twenty-something with John Lennon specs and a wispy goatee." We shall have to keep an eye out for Angus sightings. :)
When did he come back from Mexico? Was it the last book?
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Confirmed in ADT.
Jordan wrote: "But Adrien casually mentions it, so it's easy to miss."In fact, I did miss it, until you pointed it out.
Now I'm smiling to myself like an idiot thinking of Jake picking Adrien up and putting him on the couch. Thanks, Jordan. :)
Jordan wrote: "Wait... Angus has fair hair? Long fair hair? How on earth did I miss that? I definitely pictured him as dark haired, though not black hair. How odd."Yeah, me too. Maybe since he wasn't described as blond the first time, I just went ahead and imagined him as I wanted.
Loretta wrote: "Mymymble wrote: "Melissa wrote: "Linda ~ chock full of hoot, just a little bit of nanny ~ wrote: "And I keep forgetting that Jake is supposed to be blond."Yes, he may be written as a blond, but I..."
Me too!
Loretta wrote: "Mymymble wrote: "Jordan wrote: "Mymymble wrote: "Melissa wrote: "Linda ~ chock full of hoot, just a little bit of nanny ~ wrote: "And I keep forgetting that Jake is supposed to be blond."Yes, he ..."
Interestingly, I tend to forgett that characters wear glasses. Thinking about it, I knew that Angus had them but I picture him like that. I have mine since age 2. Maybe I'm so used to glasses that they don't register anymore.
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No worries. Well versed here in the world of AE. :-D
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Yeah, me too. Maybe since he wa..."
That might be why I pictured him with dark hair too. it makes sense.
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In fact, I did miss it, until you pointed it out.
Now I'm smiling to myself like an idiot thinking of Jake picking Adrien up..."
You're welcome. :-D
About Adrien and Bruce having sex at the end of the story. I always understood he'd done it to protect Jake, he heard Jake outside of the bedroom and when Bruce wanted to go and get Adrien's pill he kind of panicked which lead to sex. Because he knew if Bruce managed to kill Jake, Adrien was dead.
Oh Johanna, I'm so glad we can start this weekend with the next one. RL is quite demanding these days so I mainly manage to read and comment during the weekend.
One thing what I thought was intresting, was when Bruce asked Adrien out for the second time. Adrien was reluctant to go.
Mod
My thoughts exactly — that many of us probably have more time to comment during the weekends. :-)
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Adrien was kind of luke-warm from the start. Here's his first impression when Bruce approaches him at Rob's funeral: "Next to me stood a very tall man with strong features and black, lank hair. Kind of attractive in a homely way."
Then, somewhat more favorably: "We shook hands. His grip was warm, firm." Bruce stands up for Adrien in response to "police harassment" when Jake comes on too strong, and that leads to Adrien changing his mind (letting down his defenses) about talking to a reporter. But even then Adrien is noticing things that seem not quite on the level: "He looked too well-groomed, too well-dressed to fit my image of a reporter."
When Adrien confirms that Bruce doesn't work for Boytimes, Bruce still cajoles him into a date. "Maybe I did need to talk to someone — anyone — even a reporter. Or maybe I just found the guy attractive. It had been so long I hardly recognized the signals." Notice how often Adrien is thinking of Jake's looks and actions vs. his reflections on Bruce. Adrien is lonely and knows he is giving way too much thought to "Riordan." He really is attracted to Jake and he knows that's unhealthy. So he convinces himself to give Bruce a chance.
Then they have this kind of creepy first date, where Bruce shows he has "investigated" way too much about Adrien for comfort, then ingratiates himself by expressing his hopes and compliments. Still Adrien isn't hooked, and doesn't respond right away to Bruce's calls and voicemails — until after he's again thinking too much about Jake: "Riordan was not remotely my type… And yet there was something about his strength, his arrogance, his sheer size that got under my skin... He was probably selfish in the sack. Probably selfish and greedy and … unsophisticated. And hung like a horse." Then Adrian returns Bruce's calls and sets up the date that's cancelled due to Claude's panic… and that leads to Claude's murder. And then Adrien seeks solace in sex with Bruce.
The irony is that Adrien chose Bruce as a safe/sane option to Jake. This book is really all quite deviously and brilliantly constructed.
Karen wrote: "Notice how often Adrien is thinking of Jake's looks and actions vs. his reflections on Bruce."Yes. Also, Adrien tends to think to himself about what Jake would think or say even when he's speaking to other people.
Karen wrote: "The irony is that Adrien chose Bruce as a safe/sane option to Jake. This book is really all quite deviously and brilliantly constructed."
You're right, it is brilliant!
I had actually pegged Bruce as the killer very early on during my first read, and it frustrated me that Adrien didn't connect the dots that at the very least the guy was bad news. His brain and instincts were trying to tell him but he was too distracted by everything else going on to process the clues.
I didn't have that much time lately and I reread the first pages a couple of days ago, but the lure of the new Ginn Hale's book was too strong... So I started only yesterday a proper reread.It's such a classic for many of us!
On one side I reread some sentences that I have almost memorised. On the other side though I discover new things, which is strange, having reread it so many times.
For ex. at the end of chapter 1, at page 10 of the MLR paperback:
So what led Detective Riordan to (in a manner of speaking) finger me?
Is this a sexual innuendo only in my twisted mind?
Antonella wrote: "So what led Detective Riordan to (in a manner of speaking) finger me?Is this a sexual innuendo only in my twisted mind?"
If it is, my mind is just as twisted as yours, Antonella. :-D
Elena wrote: "Antonella wrote: "So what led Detective Riordan to (in a manner of speaking) finger me?Is this a sexual innuendo only in my twisted mind?"
If it is, my mind is just as twisted as yours, Antonella..."
And mine too.
Mod
Is this a sexual innuendo only in my twisted mind?"
If it is, my mind is just as twisted as yo..."
Me
Johanna wrote: "Me LOL!
IMO I didn't noticed it before because I was too innocent.
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LOL!
IMO I didn't noticed it before because I was too innocent."
Like... you were too innocent before? :-) Before you found Josh and us...? :-D :-D :-D
Johanna wrote: "Like... you were too innocent before? :-) Before you found Josh and us...? :-D ."Let's say, before I started to regularly read m/m.
But all of you significantly contributed to my education ;-).
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Let's say, before I started to regularly read m/m.
But all of you significantly contributed to my..."
LOL.
I'm about 70% into my re read. I am enjoying being behind as now I am noticing more things that you all have mentioned. I never really noticed how much Jake pops into Adrien's mind at odd moments. I'm reading along with the narration and I am loving it. I just adore Chris Patton's narration.
Mod
:-)
I'm sure we'll continue discussing in this topic even though some of us are already reading and discussing the next book. So, feel welcome to comment here any time later on, too.
Viv wrote: "I never really noticed how much Jake pops into Adrien's mind at odd moments."I noticed it during this re-read too, Viv.
Adrien does it even before he gets to know Jake outside of the investigation, isn't it adorable? :)
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There's something very sad about Bruce, about who he was and who he became. That's a tricky thing to pull off and I think we kind of move away from reflecting on it, especially after the brutality of his last scene with Adrien. I keep coming back to these words from Chapter 11 and the scene following it.
"His body was beautiful: long-limbed, strong and beautiful. It felt good rubbing naked against mine." There is this awkward love-making (maybe not exactly love-making, but perhaps more than just sex because Adrien gives such attention to his partners) that Adrien attributes to it "having been a long time for him as well." And finally that revealing post-coital dialogue where Adrien remembers Robert's and Mel's critique of him:
“Tell me what you’re thinking,” he asked later.
“I’m not thinking. It’s wonderful.” You think too much, Robert had said. You analyze everything to death, Mel had said.
This is the same scene where Bruce mentions his Siamese cat so fondly, another particularly creepy note in retrospect.
Mod
There's something very sad about Bruce, about who he was and who he became. That's a tricky thin..."
I didn't doubt Adrien's death for an instant. In fact, as I was listening last night, I got to thinking about this. What if Adrien and Bruce had started a relationship. What would happen then? I mean, I think Bruce/Grant would have gotten bored over time. He wouldn't be jealous because all of Adrien's friends would be dead. Even if Adrien never figured out he was the killer, let's say. I think Bruce would have gotten so bored he would kill Adrien out of spite, or boredom or something. Right?
Really, who knows? But, that was my thinking.
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Oh yes, the cat! That was so creepy! He actually killed his beloved cat, just to be able to place it in the bookstore. Or did any of you think the cat just happened to have died of natural causes? Highly unlikely.
Aaaand it also made me think how, much later on, (actually in The Boy with the Painful Tattoo) Adrien's eyes are described as the cool blue of a Siamese cat's. Couldn't help thinking that maybe one of the reasons Bruce was so fond of his cat was exactly this... yikes.
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Mymymble wrote: "Karen wrote: "I've gone on to the book's discussion, but wanted to note this before I forget again.There's something very sad about Bruce, about who he was and who he became. That's a tricky thin..."
It took me several rereads to make the connection with the cat. So. Creepy. Before I had thought the Siamese died some time ago and he killed a stray to put in Adrien's office. But then, wasn't something mentioned about a cat when they first went to Bruce's place?
Q&A with Josh Lanyon
Books mentioned in this topic
Fatal Shadows / A Dangerous Thing (other topics)Stranger Things Have Happened: An Adrien English Write Your Own Damn Story (other topics)
The Boy with the Painful Tattoo (other topics)
Here there be dragons (other topics)
Fatal Shadows / A Dangerous Thing (other topics)
More...
This series discussion has already turned out to be one of our better ideas!! :-D