Tudor History Lovers discussion
The Six Wives of Henry VIII.. What Book with that Theme is the best?
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Marian
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Apr 23, 2015 02:33PM
Have a good day off Catherine:)
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Marian wrote: "If its true that Anne did have all those affairs with the 5 accused..why wasn't there more people who came forward with there rumours?She always had ladies in waiting all around her,so how could sh..."Many historian proved that the dates where Anne had spend
time with her "lovers" are wrong. They were used to prove that she has done it. But in some of them she wasn't even at the place where it had "happened". In some she was highly pregnant at others she was in the laying in chamber to give birth.. at some she had just a miscarriage and was probably not in the mood and had not the health to sleep with a lover..
They were made up. And it's true she couldn't have done it since she was always surrounded by her maids. Katherine Howard got help by Jane Boleyn who also confessed. Nothing like this happened with Anne. I think that Henry wanted to get rid of her in the end. She had too much temper for him, they had a lot of fights and she was very jealous..
Which Henry thought she had no right to be since Katherine had always looked away when he had an affair. (and it was probably very normal then for men since they didn't marry for love most of the time). He had hoped to get a son by Anne but he only got a daughter and miscarriages .. it must have reminded him of Katherine. Maybe god showed him again that this marriages wasn't right? Maybe a lot of the love he had for her was the promise of a son and when she disappointed him in that aspect his love soured very quickly. Henry was not a man who was happy with his wifes for a long time.. maybe he just didn't want her anymore maybe he wanted a more complacent wife and maybe he already met Jane Seymour. Who was very different from Anne, some say the very opposite. And then it got tricky.. He saw what happened the first time he wanted a divorce. Maybe the risk was to great that everything would happen again and he had to wait years to get his divorce. It would be very shameful for him too.. everything he did to marry Anne. He changed his religion, broke with the pope! I think it had a lot to do that he didn't wanted to show the world that maybe what he did was wrong. Maybe people would say something because he couldn't get sons.. So he had to find the fault in someone else. Everything was Annes fault.. she tricked him into marrying him. She slept with other man when he gave her so much. He wanted to get rid of her as fast a possible..
i mean, Annes body was probably not even buried and he married Jane Seymour. He didn't wanted to wait and it made everything so much easier for him. Maybe Anne flirted with other man but i think it had a lot to do with courtly love which was then perfectly normal. Other queens did as much as her. But even if it is true that she was unfaithful to Henry. He didn't had to kill her it happened to Queens before, they were sent to exile. They divorced of them. Anne was (as much as i now) the first queen to get executed in england. I think that and that he married so soon after Anne got executed showed that he just wanted a fast solution. He wanted Anne out of the way. She became troublesome and he saw what happened the first time he wanted a divorce.
What do you think?
Catherine wrote: "Thanks Marian, I have a day off tomorrow so might give it a watch..I might do some digging to see if Henry did pay Anne's debt off!"
I found this on an internet page: "the king paid her gambling debts since Anne, like most courtiers, enjoyed cards and dice"
http://englishhistory.net/tudor/monar...
Marian wrote: "Since I am reading "The Marriage game" by Alison Weir,it was interesting to go through Elizabeth R..the TV series from 1976..the second episode is called "The Marriage Game":)https://www.youtub..."
Thank you! I will watch this now it looks good.
Catherine wrote: "Yes indeed!I agree I think she was mean and conniving..
Manipulative and moody!
Her treatment of Wolsey, Katherine OA and Mary was disgusting, and I think part of her execution was justice for th..."
Jane didn't seem very likeable to me too..
It is funny that she used almost the same tactic as Anne to get to Henry but she isn't remembered as cunning or scheming as is Anne. She too started to meet with Henry while he was married. I always wondered if Henry would have seen her as his favorite wife too if she hadn't died giving birth to Edward. He wasn't very long married and seemed to tire already of her? It seemed like this from what i read about her. She died very soon and she gave him his son and for that she would always be remembered as his favorite wife and he was even buried beside her. What do you think of Jane from what you read now?
I agree, Jane didn't live long enough for us to know if she would have went in a similar direction!I believe that because she provided the son Henry longed for, and the only one out of 6 to do so, he referred as his favourite wife! It's easy to do when they were married approx 2 years!
From what I read so far, she was a bit too full of herself.. And was starting to make her opinions known which Henry disliked.. But then she fell pregnant then died so didn't have the time to fall out with him the way Anne did!
Catherine wrote: "I agree, Jane didn't live long enough for us to know if she would have went in a similar direction!I believe that because she provided the son Henry longed for, and the only one out of 6 to do so,..."
I agree! She was probably one of the "lucky" wifes for dying before she could fall out with him.. Of course Anne of Cleves will always be the luckiest (probably, although she never married again). But who knows what could have happened to Jane later? Maybe she would have ended like her two brothers. Their connection to the most beloved wife didn't save them.. But of course they were both extremely scheming too! Yes! Henry didn't seem to be so happy with her towards the end but their son changed everything suddenly. He definitely mourned very long for her and it was some time until he considered marriage again.. He certainly had no luck with marriages after her.. Anne of cleves and Katherine Howard were disasters. Katherine Parr was certainly better but he was already very bitter and ill then. From that it is no wonder that he wanted to be buried besides Jane. Their marriage was although short the luckiest (probably because it was short).
Catherine wrote: "I agree, Jane didn't live long enough for us to know if she would have went in a similar direction!I believe that because she provided the son Henry longed for, and the only one out of 6 to do so,..."
I'm curious already what you think about Anne of Cleves when you come to her chapter! :)
Johanna wrote: "Catherine wrote: "Yes indeed!I agree I think she was mean and conniving..
Manipulative and moody!
Her treatment of Wolsey, Katherine OA and Mary was disgusting, and I think part of her execution..."
Johanna wrote: "Catherine wrote: "Yes indeed!
I agree I think she was mean and conniving..
Manipulative and moody!
Her treatment of Wolsey, Katherine OA and Mary was disgusting, and I think part of her execution..."
Johanna wrote: "Catherine wrote: "Yes indeed!
I agree I think she was mean and conniving..
Manipulative and moody!
Her treatment of Wolsey, Katherine OA and Mary was disgusting, and I think part of her execution..."
I actually don't think there's much info out there on Jane Seymour to be honest.I do know that Henry and Jane were married shortly after Anne Boleyn was beheaded.And Jane didn't even have a coronation..I guess Henry wasn't taking any chances.She born Edward and I think 2 weeks later..she was dead.Then Edward was very ill,dont remember with what,but I think it was terminal.Even Henrys bastard son by Elizabeth Blount or Blaunt...even he died in his teens.Even these historians who write these books,for us to enjoy,they can only go by what info that they are allowed to receive..and then historical fiction..they can write what they want.They found the bones of 2 young boys in the tower..even the church of England,will not allow any forensics to be done on the bones of the 2 young boys...what are they hiding?So I just take some stuff with a grain of salt.
Johanna wrote: "Catherine wrote: "Thanks Marian, I have a day off tomorrow so might give it a watch..I might do some digging to see if Henry did pay Anne's debt off!"
I found this on an internet page: "the king..."
Thank you Johanna:)
Johanna wrote: "Catherine wrote: "I agree, Jane didn't live long enough for us to know if she would have went in a similar direction!I believe that because she provided the son Henry longed for, and the only one..."
And I think I read also,that Henry thought that Ann of Cleaves was not a virgin.And that there marriage, was never..ummm...consummated.
Marian wrote: "Johanna wrote: "Catherine wrote: "I agree, Jane didn't live long enough for us to know if she would have went in a similar direction!I believe that because she provided the son Henry longed for, ..."
Yes Henrys marriage with Anne of Cleves was never consummated.
Henry said he could not believe her to be a virgin
due to the “the looseness of her breasts and other tokens”
He told his physicians how “he found her body in such sort disordered and indisposed to excite and provoke any lust in him” he found her body odor unpleasant too.. he said she had
"She had “very evil smells about her"
Anne had probably large breasts and Henry could not fit that in his picture of a virgin..
She was in other things unattractive to him too..
Anne of Cleves couldn't play an instrument (which was for Henry very important), she didn't play cards,
she didn't even speak english!
I'm sure that she was still a virgin, she was highly innocent and completely ignorant about sexual intercourse. It appears that she believed to have done her duty by kissing the king goodnight! It is said that we don't know a lot about her she seemed to be highly interesting ..
And that we only have one portrait of her too! I'm sure that she wasn't as ugly as Henry saw her since he was the only one who thought so.. what do you think?
Marian wrote: "Johanna wrote: "Catherine wrote: "Yes indeed!I agree I think she was mean and conniving..
Manipulative and moody!
Her treatment of Wolsey, Katherine OA and Mary was disgusting, and I think part ..."
True. We can never know if what we read is true and if it happened like that.. Many things were written by enemies. We can't know if a lot of the things the Spanish Ambassador wrote about Anne is true since they were naturally on Katherine's site..
and that appears to be true for everything we read.
Do you think the bones belong to the "princes in the tower"?
I took a break from reading this weekend and watched season two of "The Tudors". Very entertaining. And I thought they did an excellent job at it. Catherine, I'm on Jane now and she has just given birth to Edward. She as Johanna said, probably the lucky one in the end.
Anne on the other hand. I think the scheme of her audultry was just an excuse to "rid of her".
The fact that she couldn't have a male heir is most likely due that she was probably Rh-negative (my wife is like this and we never had a son together; our chemistry didn't mix right.) Anyway, they didn't know about this back then and all the signs point to this medical condition
If you are Rh-negative, you may develop antibodies to an Rh-positive baby. If a small amount of the baby’s blood mixes with your blood, which often happens, your body may respond as if it were allergic to the baby. Your body may make antibodies to the Rh antigens in the baby’s blood. This means you have become sensitized and your antibodies can cross the placenta and attack your baby’s blood.
They break down the fetus’s red blood cells and produce anemia (the blood has a low number of red blood cells). This condition is called hemolytic disease or hemolytic anemia. It can become severe enough to cause serious illness, brain damage, or even death in the fetus or newborn. Sensitization can occur any time the fetus’s blood mixes with the mother’s blood.
If you are Rh-negative, you may develop antibodies to an Rh-positive baby. If a small amount of the baby’s blood mixes with your blood, which often happens, your body may respond as if it were allergic to the baby. Your body may make antibodies to the Rh antigens in the baby’s blood. This means you have become sensitized and your antibodies can cross the placenta and attack your baby’s blood.
They break down the fetus’s red blood cells and produce anemia (the blood has a low number of red blood cells). This condition is called hemolytic disease or hemolytic anemia. It can become severe enough to cause serious illness, brain damage, or even death in the fetus or newborn. Sensitization can occur any time the fetus’s blood mixes with the mother’s blood.
In medicine today this is remedied by a simple shot early in pregnancy.
I believe this was Annes curse leading to her demise.
I believe Jane could have met the same demise because she was also decieving, conniving and at time confrontive (which showed when she confronted him about the uprising of Ashe) and would have eventually made him angered at her.
I agree. I think the Rhesus negative theory has been put forward by a few historians as has been considered as a very likely cause of the deaths of Anne's children after the birth of Elizabeth.I couldn't bring myself to like Jane after reading her chapter, I just have the impression that she played the part of a passive demure lady to entice Henry, as that was the opposite of Anne, yet once married she became a bit more authoritative and confrontational and quite frankly sounds like a bit of a snob, asking if Mary could come to court so that she could have a lady of a similar social status to socialise with.
I'm liking Anne of Cleves though, she sounds like a genuine person, who only wants a quiet life and do her duty, I don't recall where I read it, but I believe she had a very sheltered and strict upbringing and England opened her eyes to a new way of life which she embraced away from the domination of her mother and brother.
I'm sure I'll be on Anne of Cleaves by the end of today as I usually read through my lunch period and on "down times" at work. I an not too fond of Jane either. From what I've read in the past, I cannot really say which wife would have been my favorite.
I just don't know what women seen in Henry to want to marry him. He seemed to me that he was an egotistical ass to be quite honest. I personnally could not deal with that type of lifestyle.
Johanna wrote: "Marian wrote: "Johanna wrote: "Catherine wrote: "I agree, Jane didn't live long enough for us to know if she would have went in a similar direction!I believe that because she provided the son Hen..."
What I think of Anne of Cleaves?..that she was smart!!!She at least didn't get stuck with him.
Johanna wrote: "http://www.theanneboleynfiles.com/ann...this was very interesting"
Thank you Johanna for this site..I shall go and make some tea,and have a look:)
Johanna wrote: "Marian wrote: "Johanna wrote: "Catherine wrote: "Yes indeed!I agree I think she was mean and conniving..
Manipulative and moody!
Her treatment of Wolsey, Katherine OA and Mary was disgusting, an..."
If the bones belong to the 2 little Princes..would that mean that Richard the lll is off the hook?The bones are buried in Westminster Abbey.And then..what if the bones are negative?I wonder what would happen then.So much stuff still out there,that we will never know.
Yes, I've seen Rh-negative suggested as the problem with Anne Boleyn before. It's certainly an interesting theory.Jane, however, I think was as safe as any of Henry's wives could be. Mother of the heir.
Jane most likely was the safest. It's sad that she was only there for two years.On another note, Christina of Milan who he was looking at shortly after, was, I think, probably very smart in rejecting the proposal for marriage.
Oooh absolutely!! Clever young lass for keeping well clear of that crazy guy!
She was very smart and went on to do much better than she would have.And as far as Henry: and they say King Ludwig was "mad".
Christina of Milan had the right idea.
Well, King Ludwig was mad. Henry was mad, bad, and dangerous to know!
Haha, that's definetly true. And his friends "courtiers" were just as bad and dangerous.
John wrote: "Jane most likely was the safest. It's sad that she was only there for two years.On another note, Christina of Milan who he was looking at shortly after, was, I think, probably very smart in reje..."
Wasn't she the clever woman who said that if she had two heads she had one to spare for Henry viii?
Catherine wrote: "I agree. I think the Rhesus negative theory has been put forward by a few historians as has been considered as a very likely cause of the deaths of Anne's children after the birth of Elizabeth.I ..."
I agree! Woman in Germany had apparently a much more restricted life than in England..and there she seems to have flourished. I'm sad that she never married again but maybe she didn't wanted it after everything that happened the first time. Maybe she didn't wanted to give up her freedom too.. She seems to have liked Henry's children a lot too and spend a lot of time with them even after the divorce.
That's very nice of her.
Didn't she live the longest of all of his wifes and even Henry?
Yes she was. She was smart. Widowed at 13yo from Fransisco II and later married the Duke of Lorraine.I don't know if I would agree that she was as pretty as they claimed her to be, but for her time she may have been.
Marian wrote: "Johanna wrote: "Marian wrote: "Johanna wrote: "Catherine wrote: "Yes indeed!I agree I think she was mean and conniving..
Manipulative and moody!
Her treatment of Wolsey, Katherine OA and Mary wa..."
Hmm.. he could still had them killed by somebody else and then hidden under the stairs. I wonder why they don't want to let them test them.. It could help to clear up a mystery that people wonder about for years. If they want the bones to rest it would be better to test them and then give them a right burial even if they aren't the princes.
If they wouldn't be them the mystery would go on..
I wonder what happened to the little kids? It's sad to think about.
John wrote: "Haha, that's definetly true. And his friends "courtiers" were just as bad and dangerous."I agree! But in Henry's time kings and courtiers had so much more power and could decide about everything and that made them so much more dangerous!
Yes, Anne of Cleves outlived all the other wives; she lived until 1557, and was present at Mary's coronation.
Susanna - Censored by GoodReads wrote: "Yes, Anne of Cleves outlived all the other wives; she lived until 1557, and was present at Mary's coronation."Thank you Susanna.
There should be more books about Anne of Cleves..a fiction book from the point of her view would be excellent
since she has experienced so many events of the Tudor era in her lifetime.
Catherine wrote: "Oooh absolutely!! Clever young lass for keeping well clear of that crazy guy!"You must tell us what you think of Katherine Howard when you come to her part!
Have you read Philippa Gregory 'the Boleyn inheritance'? That gives a fictional side to Anne of Cleves as well as Katherine Howard.I'm reading about KH now.. Bless her.. She seems sweet and kind, but didn't have the brains to play the political games at court and let teenage hormones rule her head until she loses it..
Didn't Henry call her..his rose without a thorn,I think that's what I read..something like that anyway.
Yes he did! That's what the chapter I'm currently reading is titled!!She seems nice enough.. Appealed to Henry to free a few prisoners from the tower, shared Christmas gifts (2 puppies) with Anne of Cleves. I think she was probably very sweet natured but easily manipulated and fooled, and didn't possess the intelligence to realise the danger she put herself in!
She wasn't well educated, and was barely literate. I do feel bad for her in a way, if she'd had a better upbringing and taught proper behaviour her potential to be a kind gentle queen was huge!
One of these days Catherine,one of these days,Im going to read that book you are currently reading:)))I have it here.Just don't know when thou,as I have so many others I want to dig into!I hope you are enjoying it.
Haha! It is interesting, it's certainly made me rethink some of my previous opinions on the Queens!
really?Shoot..now I really want to read this one!!..lol!
Catherine wrote: "Yes he did! That's what the chapter I'm currently reading is titled!!She seems nice enough.. Appealed to Henry to free a few prisoners from the tower, shared Christmas gifts (2 puppies) with Anne ..."
I'm sorry for poor Katherine Howard. She seemed to be really naive even for her young age. She was not ready to be queen
with all the duties that come with it at all..
I think Henry wanted to feel young again after everything that happened with Anne & Anne :D and took such a young wife. But Henry seemed to have loved her too.. he showered her with presents and courtiers said that he seemed to get more healthy and cheerful too.
But Katherine must have really fallen in love with Thomas Culpeper ..
Many people say that she was stupid but i don't think so.
It wasn't very clever to start an affair in front of the kings eyes but i don't think that she thought of the consequences..
But i wonder what Jane Boleyn thought by helping her.. She must have been old and mature enough to know what would come out of it! She saw for herself what happened with Anne and her husband. I'm still wondering what could have made her do it?
Maybe Katherine's loose upbringing made her incautious..She certainly had sexual relations before her marriage to Henry. It was very important for Henry that his wifes should be virgins when they marry him.. That's was probably why he gave Francis Dereham the worse punishment too.. even though Culpeper had a relationship with her in front of Henry's eyes. Francis "corrupted" her.. Culpeper was not a good man, that is clear. But it's kind of sad that Henrys "rose without thorns" had thorns after all.. he certainly had no luck with wifes.. I think it must have been terrible for him to see that this marriage was a failure too.
Henry was a terrible husband and later man but he certainly had no luck in life.
I think towards the end of his reign he knew he would not father anymore children and was desperately lonely. Imagine being surrounded by hundreds of people everyday yet never knowing who your true loyal friends are.He thought highly of Culpeper so it must have been devastating!
Henry was a bit mad, paranoid and distrustful, as well as a devious himself, but I think that was probably after a significantly long reign filled with uprisings, wives cheating (1 anyway), wives dying, etc.
it would be enough to drive anyone a bit crazy let alone a King!
Marian wrote: "One of these days Catherine,one of these days,Im going to read that book you are currently reading:)))I have it here.Just don't know when thou,as I have so many others I want to dig into!I hope y..."
Johanna wrote: "Marian wrote: "Johanna wrote: "Catherine wrote: "I agree, Jane didn't live long enough for us to know if she would have went in a similar direction!
I believe that because she provided the son Hen..."
Marian you definetly need to read this book. It's captivating. Another you should read if you haven't already is "The Children of Henry VIII"
Tudor History Lovers
Books mentioned in this topic
The Life and Death of Anne Boleyn (other topics)The Children of Henry VIII (other topics)
Mary Queen of Scots (other topics)
Mary, Queen of Scots and the Murder of Lord Darnley (other topics)
Mary Queen of Scots (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
David Starkey (other topics)David Starkey (other topics)
