World, Writing, Wealth discussion
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Advice to indie authors: why most of it leaves me frustrated
Social media will drive traffic to your website. Its not quick or easy. It has taken me 7 yrs to build up 17,000 Twitter followers. About the same to get to 2100 FB friends and 500+ LinkedIn whatevers. Find your niche that will like what you are writing about. Now some of those people are going to my blog/website. Maybe if Im lucky I can sell 1-2% of those going to my blog/website an Ebook. Which will only mean about 100-125 sales.
But those 100-125 might be the start of my "word of mouth" which might get me to 200 sales. Its a long laborious process that requires constant work.
Michael wrote: "Social media will drive traffic to your website. Its not quick or easy. It has taken me 7 yrs to build up 17,000 Twitter followers. About the same to get to 2100 FB friends and 500+ LinkedIn whatev..."Is it wrong that I love this advice because you're a fellow newbie? With any luck plus your hard work you could be our next Marie Silk! Lol, it's great info and I'm going to check out your sites.
Im hardly a marketing newbie though. Ive been doing it for almost 20 yrs. That is my strength, not writing. I am available to my clients 24/7/365. Even when I was in the hospital for cancer treatment, I answered the phone and returned emails. Nothing stopped that. With my (beta) readers I am taking the same approach. I answer all of their emails and private messages almost immediately. I am available and not aloof. I make them a part of the writing process and the story.
You want to engage your market/reader/client. You want to be real to them, and always accessible. Thats how you build loyalty and a brand.
Its not the book they are buying, its you. In sales, its always you, its never the product.
Whether I am the next Marie Silk or Dan Brown, that will not change.
Michael wrote: "Im hardly a marketing newbie though. Ive been doing it for almost 20 yrs. That is my strength, not writing. I am available to my clients 24/7/365. Even when I was in the hospital for cancer treatme..."Yet another reason why I love Goodreads. I've met some really awesome writers here. I've been fortunate to be a part of their journey and they of mine. It is about relationships.
yup, he said it all . . . it's you the author the reader is taking a chance on.
I agree to an extent but when you have readership goals into the hundreds, then thousands it becomes about the book. Unless it strikes a chord no one will recommend it, whether you're chummy with them or not. I think those personal relationships are necessary when you're establishing yourself with readers, bloggers, reviewers etc. secondly I think maintaining relationships is how you grow your brand.
If whatever you're selling, a novel, a car, a retirement plan, is a awful product then you will not go far. But what will set you apart from the tens or hundreds of thousands of other excellent authors is your relationship with the reader.
The question becomes why should they read your novel as opposed to the dozens of other books on their must read list.
Readers want to know their favorite authors. I went to the romance writers convention in Vegas. I was amazed at the length of the lines of readers waiting to meet their favorite authors and how willing they would stand in line for them. Hundreds of women waiting up to an hour.
Thats the type of relationship you want to cultivate. And thats going to start with your social media and website/blog/email list.
I'm with you Michael.There is a very real relationship that occurs between the author and the readers.
I think the quality of that relationship is critical to fostering the books.
This reminds me of a post I did on my blog a little while ago. Here's the link if you want to check it out - http://www.zeemonodee.com/2016/06/adv...Michael is right, though - connection is all about the person. Readers come to an author for what he/she delivers, this 'idea' that is always present in all their works. Like I mention in the article, mine is the notion of family, and basically, relationships. But in a way, this is 'me', and it seeps into all my work because it reflects who I am, someone who's really into relationships and family ties. So my social media also reflects this, because I am putting 'me' out there in the same way as in my books. My posts are often about my kid's antics, my cat's latest mishap, things my hubby said or did, or what I'm dealing with where my parents are concerned.
Know what you are selling - you - and also HOW, and that's it. Not that the work will be done for you, but you got the strong foundation to then build on that when the time comes to market.
A lot of good advice on the essentials here.I understand your frustration, Tara, with trying to find something comprehensive instead uncovering layer after layer how to get to the assumption the previous article rested upon -:)
There is enough to study for a degree..
Unlike colleagues above, I don't know much about marketing myself, but I guess, on a more technical side, to start collecting followers, mail list subscribers and so on: 1) the basic layout is necessary, where you'd provide content and allow people to subscribe, 2) proactive approach to contacting/friending on social networks, and from there to blog/site; 3) regular offering of new content, desirably spuring some discussion; and finally - 4) increasing visibility for the layout and content through SEOs, ads and all that, in a slow, years-long process....
However, a book may take off faster than accomplishing of a sizable platform or never take off despite all that...
Agree wholeheartedly.Zee - we definitely have the family angle in common. It's what makes me happiest to write about.
Michael
That's the scary part but also the exciting part. Another reason why I'm anxious to get my site up. I want to interact with readers on my home turf, so to speak.
Nik
I couldn't have said it better.
Permit me to be brutally honest Tara. Hopefully you won't get offended. You are in a place that allows you to be even more successful than all of us combined but you are selling yourself short.
Most experts would tell you to set yourself up for where you want to be even if you are not there yet.
You have written a parenting book and by the reviews you haven't taken things out of where the sun don't shine. Theoretically, that makes you an expert.
If I were you, I would set up a parenting blog that has more to offer than regular mommy blogs. I would blog about solutions to real parenting issues.
How would I drive traffic? Very easily! I'd be an active member of Facebook groups for parents. Every so often when a parent asks for advice, I would share the direct link to a blog post I wrote that proffers the solution. I would hope that the person gets enough benefit and would want to check back again or even check out other posts.
As much as we like having you here Tara, at least 50% of your online time should be spent on Facebook parenting groups. For every 10 posts you make only one should be to update your followers about your book. Because they gain so much value for free from you, they'd be curious as to how much more valuable a book written by you would be.
The next thing I would do is sync my blog feed with the hootsuite dashboard. Words can't describe how fantastic that is, you just have to try it to see.
I have only 3k followers on twitter but my twitter analytics reported that my tweets had 52k impressions in the last month, my handle was mentioned about 500 times. Remember my genre is no where as popular as most.
Hope this helps
Segilola wrote: "Permit me to be brutally honest Tara. Hopefully you won't get offended. You are in a place that allows you to be even more successful than all of us combined but you are selling yourself short.
..."
You said a lot here so I bookmarked this page so i can go through your remarks more carefully and make some notes. Everything you're saying is correct. Most of this doesn't come naturally for me but I'm commited to seeing what I can accomplish with my writing. Thank you (and everyone) for your observations. Quick question, when you say the position I'm in do you mean the fact that I live in New York City? If so, you're right in that there are a *lot* of sophisticated parents here. At least I think that's what you meant :)
Yes, location wise but what you have to say is potentially useful to millions of parents. It cuts across so many boundaries. I would like to think that irrespective of nationality, social class etc etc, most parents would want to raise sophisticated children. Your audience size is HUMONGOUS
Segilola wrote: "Yes, location wise but what you have to say is potentially useful to millions of parents. It cuts across so many boundaries. I would like to think that irrespective of nationality, social class etc..."I understand now...thank you, Segilola
Segilola wrote: "Yes, location wise but what you have to say is potentially useful to millions of parents. It cuts across so many boundaries. I would like to think that irrespective of nationality, social class etc etc, most parents would want to raise sophisticated children. Your audience size is HUMONGOUS"I couldn't agree more, I think people are fed up of kids growing up with no manners through 'let them do what they want' parenting. Even though I'm not a parent I found your book interesting, I know that child behaviour is your genre but something similar for adult behaviour might find a niche too - another book idea for you?
Jen wrote: "Segilola wrote: "Yes, location wise but what you have to say is potentially useful to millions of parents. It cuts across so many boundaries. I would like to think that irrespective of nationality,..."That's my third book! (view spoiler)
Segilola wrote: "yup, he said it all . . . it's you the author the reader is taking a chance on."Welp, I'm screwed.
(He half-kids...)
Sorry, this is a really long post! I've recently watched so many youtube vids and read articles on exactly what you are talking about, Tara. Some of the "advice" from these is not helpful at all, because nearly everyone started with something: followers from a blog, online popularity, getting in at the start of self-publishing, or previous books that had been published by the big 5. I've been hard pressed to find advice from a successful indie who worked from absolute zero like me.
I chose a pen name, did not tell friends or family that I was writing books, I had no blog or website, no editors or betas...basically I was totally alone in the writing world. And this was in March of this year. So that is what I call having to build a readership from scratch. I joined goodreads, made a facebook profile, and learned as much as I possibly could from indies who had been there, done that, before me (sales and marketing folder in SIA group).
I won't rehash all the steps I took, but I will say that over the summer I had approx 1K sales and another 1K books borrowed over Kindle Unlimited. This was without a website or email list, and my only blog was the one attached to my goodreads page which only has a handful of posts.
The problem with my method (which I was very aware of) was that I had nowhere to direct readers for updates! I included my email address in the back of each book, but that is weak compared to having a dedicated website. I received a fair amount of emails asking when the next book would be out, but this only represents a fraction of the readers who likely would have subscribed and/or pre-ordered the next book, had it been available.
This last month I did something different. I set up a pre-order so that there would be *something* available to readers instead of just an empty Amazon search. I really felt bad about leaving the readers hanging in the past! Turns out the pre-order was a good move, because the book released today and has 90 sales already, 85 of those being pre-orders. I set up a website and included a link to it in the back of my new release. It is the first time I have really put my website out there. It is now set up for email subscriptions, and I listed my next book for pre-order last night. I figure this covers all the bases that I can at this time.
Like you, I had no idea where to start with a website. But I knew I needed something. It is a bare bones DIY set up, but I think it will do the job for now. So I guess I did things backwards :D. There is a learning curve of course. In hindsight, I should have set up the website a long time ago. Right now I am pretty busy so I don't know how much time I can dedicate to the website, but at least it is there and I won't be paranoid about readers not being able to find me now :). I think it will be a lot of fun to work with the website in the future with exclusive content and a personal touch.
You might be more ahead of the game than you realize:
1. You are here and *active* on goodreads. (If you compare my Goodreads ratings vs. Amazon ratings, you will see that I have 3X more ratings on Goodreads. There are so many readers here!)
2. You wrote an amazing non-fic. I have read a lot of parenting books, and yours is so much different than anything else. It will do well imo with the right promoting.
3. You'll have at least one subscriber: me :D. Haha, surely you will have many more once you get set up.
I am 100% new to the website and email subscription thing. I don't know how many subscribers I will get, but the peace of mind in knowing that I have something set up is worth it. After everything I have seen, I agree that it makes sense to market ourselves as authors as opposed to only marketing our titles. I am working on this myself and hoping that it helps when I do a 180 genre switch next year :D. If you can get the domain name with your author name, that might be a great start.
I feel your pain, The thing is there is no magic method to selling books or gaining a following of readers. This may sound cheesy and cliche, but when it comes down to it. It's all about hard work.-If you're going to advertise your book on facebook groups. Do not just spam your book five times a day, I see people do this all the time and it's not only annoying, it's boring. Engage people, start conversations etc.
-Write what you enjoy and what you would want to read. Chances are if you would want to read it others may just want to as well.
I am by no means an expert and my two books are not flying off the shelves. This is simply just my opinion and based on my own experiences so far. I have a lot to learn still and I am nowhere near where I would like to be.
Eric wrote: "I feel your pain, The thing is there is no magic method to selling books or gaining a following of readers. This may sound cheesy and cliche, but when it comes down to it. It's all about hard work...."Very well said and very true. I did a Mother's Day giveaway of my book on fb and got great response. I believe it was because I didn't bring up my book all the time. My best interactions were with people who found my daily quips to be insightful such as how to wean your kids off selfies by showing them how to do a self-portrait with watercolors. oils etc and little nuggets like that. They were fun and not pushy. I plan to use a scheduler so i can post things like that on a regular basis so all I have to do is check in and carry on the conversation in the comments section. Hopefully it will help me become comfortable with fb again and it with me. The best feeling in the world? When the friend of a friend that you don't know shares your post on his/her timeline. Addictive!! I just need to be consistent and more methodical, I believe.
Marie wrote: "Sorry, this is a really long post! I've recently watched so many youtube vids and read articles on exactly what you are talking about, Tara. Some of the "advice" from these is not helpful at all,..."
Well said - everything is very contextual and it's tough to find examples directly transferable from one case to the next, even among fellow indies. I'm interested to see how much you find your website/blog spurs things along.
I'll note that you've already checked off one of the most important keynotes that I've learned from several veteran editors/agents - building a shelf. They all say that's the most critical aspect, and at five books and counting - in under seven months, no less - that's really impressive! My pace is two per seven years! :) Between a high-paced, demanding day job and constant book marketing on the side, I'll be hard-pressed to speed up that pace, but I'll try to have some fun regardless.
Lots of good advice here and on other threads. Getting to know things through bringing them up inhouse becomes more spot on than googling -:)
Nik wrote: "Lots of good advice here and on other threads. Getting to know things through bringing them up inhouse becomes more spot on than googling -:)"Without the threads I would know little and be certain of less.
But then the trouble is this: You have a blog, a facebook account, book trailers on Youtube and things and stuff, you even get attention, you get thumbs, you get comments - but nothing of this translates into SALES! What are you still doing WRONG?
Codex wrote: "But then the trouble is this: You have a blog, a facebook account, book trailers on Youtube and things and stuff, you even get attention, you get thumbs, you get comments - but nothing of this tran..."Good and valid question. Once you're sure that the book itself is as good as you can make it I think it takes trial and error before you locate your distinct readership. Once you locate them treat them like gold.
Codex wrote: "But then the trouble is this: You have a blog, a facebook account, book trailers on Youtube and things and stuff, you even get attention, you get thumbs, you get comments - but nothing of this tran..."if you treat your writing as a business, you need to do imho:
1 analyse your traffic, what is your bounce rate? where do visitors typically enter your website from and where do they exit from?
2 keep writing, the fact that one book did not appeal, does not mean that another book would not appeal
I have set myself a target of 10 books by this time next year. It gives the the advantage of numbers
Just what I think anyway
And this you tell two guys who have well-nigh 30 books in their portfolio? *LOL*
feel free to NOT analyse and re-strategise, feel free to NOT write any more, what do I care?
Codex wrote: "And this you tell two guys who have well-nigh 30 books in their portfolio? *LOL*"Wow that's a lot of books!
Well, many of them are simply published in two different languages, so, actually, it is little more than half that much. Still, it means work to be done. ;-)
Codex wrote: "But then the trouble is this: You have a blog, a facebook account, book trailers on Youtube and things and stuff, you even get attention, you get thumbs, you get comments - but nothing of this tran..."You have to look at who's following, liking, etc. My Twitter follower list is a mix of other writers busking their own books, People just hoping you'll follow back so they'll boost their own follower count, and marketing accounts who just want your follow so they can tell people they have a large audience.
It feels like Facebook groups are nothing but people pushing books, with no actual readers who might buy.
Seems a lot of the common marketing ideas that get thrown out often aren't targeting actual customers. You're probably better off building a mailing list, offering a free book for the address. That way, at least you find people interested in reading instead of people interested in the reciprocal follow.
It feels like Facebook groups are nothing but people pushing books, with no actual readers who might buy.Otherwise known as Spam Factories. OTOH I know numerous groups whose moderators are so very paranoid about spamming that you are banned for "prohibited advertising" as soon as you mention that you have published a book at all. So, are social media even worth the effort or do they just consume precious time that you should use for writing? What do you think?
I get a lot of traffic from Facebook groups and from tweets via the AskDavid account (I don't have my own Twitter account).I made shortlinks with booklinker so that I can track my marketing efforts on these platforms. I got 20K clicks in the last 9 weeks. This is from approx 2 tweets per day and 25 posts to Facebook groups per day.
I agree that you should not randomly spam book discussion groups of course, but the FB groups that I join are created with the intent of promoting your books or finding new books to read. I have personally downloaded a few dozen books from these groups. I tend to skip over the posts that just paste the blurb because these are too long to read when I am scrolling through. The punchy one or two sentences are what I pay attention to.
My advice is to use something like booklinker to track your clicks for the platform you want to experiment with. It shouldn't take long to find out whether those platforms are worth your time.
Marie wrote: " My advice is to use something like booklinker to track your clicks for the platform you want to experiment with. It shouldn't take long to find out whether those platforms are worth your time."definitely use booklinker! you have to get feedback on your marketing campaigns. without data, it's as though you're lost in a desert hell chasing after mirages for all eternity.
Marie wrote: "I have personally downloaded a few dozen books from these groups. I tend to skip over the posts that just paste the blurb because these are too long to read when I am scrolling through. The punchy one or two sentences are what I pay attention to. "
oh wow! only 1-2 sentences! that is really quite interesting. do you think that you're typical?
what does everyone else on this thread think?
Codex wrote: "It feels like Facebook groups are nothing but people pushing books, with no actual readers who might buy.Otherwise known as Spam Factories. OTOH I know numerous groups whose moderators are so ver..."
I'm not really an expert, so maybe someone who has done it successfully can elaborate, but I would say social media is necessary.
More and more people today want to be one step away from their favorite movie star, TV star, author, etc. There are authors out there with followings because their readers want to be connected to them. If they love a book or the characters, they want to know when the next book will be out. Or they love to hear about the author's process for the book. Or they love hearing that these people live lives that are just like theirs.
I would say social media needs to be a dance where you're trying to promote without actually promoting. You need to come off as everyone's friend first. But it's difficult to start out when you don't yet have that following. You almost have to promote yourself everywhere else to let people know you're an accessible author. I've seen it around that you're not selling your books, you're selling yourself, and that's probably how you have to go about working your social media platforms.
Alex G wrote: "oh wow! only 1-2 sentences! that is really quite interesting. do you think that you're typical?"Well, I do have a short attention span :D, and there are a lot of books to browse through so they have to catch my interest quickly. On Facebook, if you write something much longer than that, then it will be cut off mid-sentence and readers will have to click "see more" in order to see the full post.
I think it is best to say what you want to say with those first few sentences instead of making people click "see more" to read entire paragraphs.
1 - 2 sentences, yes, then if someone is interested they will continue reading.
Marie wrote: "I get a lot of traffic from Facebook groups and from tweets via the AskDavid account (I don't have my own Twitter account).I made shortlinks with booklinker so that I can track my marketing effor..."
Marie - good advice regarding Booklinker. Curious - do you use a different one for each platform you are advertising on? I.e., one for Facebook, one for Twitter/AskDavid, one for your website, etc.? I assume as much, so that you can sort out the logistics or who is coming from what.
M.L. wrote: "1 - 2 sentences, yes, then if someone is interested they will continue reading."the infamous "See more" or "More" button. we get tired of clicking through the innumerable lists of new books; we just want to find one and start reading, right? Maybe instead, it should be written as:
Don't bother unless you're a glutton for punishment or trying to use up calories.
I confess to not being much use in this thread because most of my sales seem to be independent of my marketing efforts, but then again perhaps I don't know. The problem is to account for possible delayed choice. The big problem i see is if you follow all the advice you spend all your time "marketing" but not necessarily selling. The problem for me is to find readers who are interested in reading the sort of things I write. If you write romance, that is probably amenable to social media, but a lot of other genres may not be.
E.M. wrote: "Curious - do you use a different one for each platform you are advertising on? I.e., one for Facebook, one for Twitter/AskDavid, one for your website, etc.?"
Yes I track the Twitter and Facebook links separately. I did not think about trying it on my website yet. Good idea :).
The problem for me is to find readers who are interested in reading the sort of things I write. That's exactly that. Where do you place non-fiction, for example? Advisers suggest to find forums or groups where such people meet, and join them. I did that twice, and was each time banned for spamming as soon as I had merely referenced the relevant book in the image credits. ("YOU have been involved in writing that, that's PROHIBITED advertising, READ the rules, and nagnagnagnagnag ...")
Hey, the readers are supposedly here on GR and have large groups for any genre, but most of them both as group and individuals don't wanna hear from non-celebrity authors, so until becoming a star - one would be banned, afterwards - implored to come for Q&A -:) In the middle - frantic efforts -:(
You need to read the rules for the clubs you join. Most do not allow you to talk about your own book. It's called book whacking - and usually the warnings are in multiple places. One mod suggested to an author, get in the discussions (not just for your book), and that might drive further interest.Some groups are reader-specific but allow writers their own section for promo. There are lots of groups for authors, authors to connect with readers. They allow a different type of interaction.
*facepalm*
By nature I'm not one to complain and I love hard work as much as I enjoy a challenge but some days I feel that what I don't know about marketing could fill a book. A book I would have no idea how to market!