SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion
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Which do you prefer—sci fi or fantasy?
Trike wrote: "Somewhat true, except the Singularity itself is a Science Fictional concept..."According to Ray Kurzweil it isn't!
The Singularity is Near: When Humans Transcend Biology
Grace wrote: "Tough question. Because on the one hand: dragons.
On the other hand: spaceships."
Well put!
I'm a mood reader so, really, it all depends on which way the proverbial wind is blowing on any given day.
Chris wrote: "Who really uses those definitions? I can easily find examples of books that are categorized as science fiction — in bookstores, in critical writing, in this very group — that violate known scientif..."None of these names/modifiers are a straight yes or no, it's more on a scale of how sci-fi is it on a scale of 1-10, generally the closer you are to a 10 the more REAL LIFE SCIENCE it is and we call this Hard Sci-fi, while softer sci-fi bends the rules more but still maintains the trappings of science fiction. When sci-fi gets sufficiently soft it can often start pushing up the fantasy bar.
Genre's on a bookshelf are for marketing purposes and marketing purposes only, so they try to place things together that target the same demographic, and as it turns out, people who like dragons also tend to like spaceships. Honestly. the division between literary and non-literary SFF is probably a bigger reader gap than Sci-fi and Fantasy itself.
In general genre's in books are all sliders and unless it directly changes plot structure you can basically mix and match genres freeform. There are some problems however generally the one brought up is hard sci-fi and fantasy. While technically you can write a book that is basically a hard science fiction book that also contains magic. That directly violates the definition of hard sci-fi so a new genre would be created(probably just hard science-fantasy). assuming multiple people were writing in the genre.
While genres are very much supposed to be the divider for how to market and what people like to read it's not entirely accurate to real life and what people actually consume.
An easy example is a the PNR/UF divide, these genres are mind-bogglingly close together when you try to describe them but there communities are so diverse and different that even bookstores separate them out...or try to.
Maybe an easier example for people here to understand is the Sad/Rabid Puppies vs Everyone else. That was caused by the fact that what we call the SFF community is actually made up of multiple smaller communities that while there is quite a bit of overlap there are still distinct groups within it. There are some authors that tend to be liked by multiple communities Bujold and Butcher are good examples. There are also others that combine 2 distinct communities styles into their own, the Rivers of London series really highlights this aspect, by combining UF and police procedurals together.
Communities also evolve and change over time SFF books from the 70s while they had major influence on books today are noticeably different then the ones today. Normally this is exemplified by the sub-genres that are the most popular of the day. And now with the internet it's even crazier, some of you might of seen this Lit-RPG trend...well let me show you it's path.
Technically you can claim it started in the 70s ish with Dream Park...but in reality this wasn't an influence on the genre we know it today. Where it actually started was in the webfiction community in Japan and South Korea(around the year 2000), which fed off each other over and over again until they started getting their works published (Sword Art Online) is one of the most well known examples. But then a Russian author was reading a popular Korean web novel series Legendary Moonlight Sculptor(ohh god it's trashy), decided wow this is awesome I should write something like this and basically ripped everything from that combined it with a dash of D&D and added some Russian to the mix and boom you get Play To Live. This was then paid for by the author to be translated to English and boom it took off here among a new crowd of people who weren't part of the community in JP/KR. These communities are actually still separated for the most part despite writing shockingly similar stories mostly just due to ignorance of the others existence or just since they aren't part of the community they don't know where to start. But while they are similar they are going in distinctly different directions the KR/JP has been moving towards more I was reincarnated/became my game character and the game is now real life. While the Russian/US scene has been keeping with it being a game but with a lot more SINGULARITY!!! sci-fi behind it, along with ones that occur in a sci-fi "game" world instead of just fantasy forever.
I know that's a big infodump for a subgenre you probably don't care about but I feel it highlights a good bit of what I was talking about earlier with communities changing what makes a book a book, even if it's technically the same genre, even if one community was heavily influenced by another and this split was only 5 years agoish. The only better example I can think of is comparing Western Fantasy with Chinese Fantasy, but considering that's even more obscure in the west currently, ehh.
I think this is the point that Mr. Cyberpunk or w/e was always trying to make with his you can't make cyberpunk anymore screeds. Was that the community that created it is gone, so while you can base things off what that community created, the new creation will inevitably be influenced by other stuff as well making it noticeably distinct from the works of the past.
TL;DR: Genres are complicated, and the specific communities writing style generally matters more. Also most writers/readers are part of at least a few different communities.
I'm more fantasy, though a well-written sci-fi can also capture my attention from time to time. I simply find dragons more interesting than aliens.
Chris wrote: "Who really uses those definitions? I can easily find examples of books that are categorized as science fiction — in bookstores, in critical writing, in this very group — that violate known scientif..."Academics, especially when they want to be specific and clarity is important. Keeps us all on the same page.
I don't bother with other definitions or types of categorizations in these kinds of discussions because they're too loosey-goosey to be useful. I really ignore marketing terms. Back in the day Blockbuster used to shelve The Great Waldo Pepper in Comedy. Maybe a sociopath might find that movie hilarious, but I wager not too many others will.
Genre definitions are always going to be fluid and they exist along a continuum which make defining border cases difficult. But in general those who think about this stuff pretty much agree on what belongs where.
The problem comes in when people try to redefine a genre or insist a work belongs in a genre when it clearly doesn't. To use examples that tend not to get people's blood boiling, let's look at vehicles.
A sedan is defined as a four-door car. A coupe is a two-door car. A few years ago Hyundai started building a 3-door car, but called it a coupe. It's not. I don't know what it is, but it's not a coupe. We need a new name for cars like that.
A pickup truck is characterized by its cargo bed. The number of doors is irrelevant, and they come in 2-, 3-, 4- and 6-door variants. Yet vehicles like the Ford Ranchero, Subaru Brat, Holden Ute and Chevy El Camino have coupe car-like bodies with pickup truck beds. This type of vehicle is called a "coupe utility", although most people refer to them as pickups. (Or bakkies in South Africa and utes in Australia.) So using the common word for such vehicles is no big deal in casual conversation, but if you want to be precise so there's no misunderstanding, it's best to use the technical term.
The problem with the car analogy is how clean it is. Books like music are very very messy and lots of lines get blurred. Not to mention definitions change over-time. Take psychic powers, which for a period of time were more in the science fiction realm while now they are clearly 100% in fantasy.Marketing terms are often vague and well just wrong for example the term Electronica which actually isn't a genre or subgenre at all, it's a marketing term used originally to describe Big-Beat, but then they just threw basically all EDM into because it was selling. The new thing they were calling everything for a while was dubstep, which is at least a sub-genre. There job is to make things sell and make people pick things up and people don't like to experiment. People like tried and true so if something is selling well the store will place similarish things near it on the chance that you pick it up and like it.
“If there’s a zeppelin, it’s alternate history. If there’s a rocketship, it’s science fiction. If there are swords and/or horses, it’s fantasy. A book with swords and horses in it can be turned into science fiction by adding a rocketship to the mix. If a book has a rocketship in it, the only thing that can turn it back into fantasy is the Holy Grail.”― Debra Doyle
Personally I prefer fantasy judging by which I read more, but that may be what comes to hand
Great discussion! I personally enjoy both genres but I find it easier to enjoy Fantasy and find good fantasy books. When it comes to Science fiction I just haven't been able to enjoy the "classics" that everyone likes and I tend to be more picky. Like others have mentioned above I really dislike things with too many technical terms and I find that fantasy does a much better job of realistically presenting human beings. What's the point of accurately presenting every last detail of the technology when the humans aren't well-characterized? So I tend to dislike hard sci and military sci and that sort of genre, but I am always open to sci fi books if they are actually well-written.
Fantasy might get formulaic a lot of the time, but I prefer reading a fantasy world where I can immerse myself into the world-building and let the author tell a story over something where the author is trying too hard to explain the science.
I read more Science Fiction than Fantasy when I was younger. What that meant was that there are many great Fantasy books that I have not read yet. So. I'm reading more Fantasy lately. What is helping me balance my reading out is following the monthly reading suggestions for the group.
Lenarae wrote: "I have yet to meet a sub-genre of either sci-fi or fantasy that I didn't like. Right now I'm reading a lot of steampunk and space opera. I tend to switch back and forth book-for-book. Rarely will I..."i fully agree, I found it hard to say I like this genre better than that.
lately I have read a few books in which a myth has become reality eg Vampires turn out to be real, but the rest of the world goes on. Is this fantasy? How does that compare to androids becoming real ?
Androids becoming real means science has marched on, as it habitually does. Vampires turn out to be real means they were here all along, some sort of portals has opened to another world, or the world's very rules have changed.Unless they are with a SFnal veneer, such as a virus or something.
Kateb wrote: "Lenarae wrote: "I have yet to meet a sub-genre of either sci-fi or fantasy that I didn't like. Right now I'm reading a lot of steampunk and space opera. I tend to switch back and forth book-for-boo..."It depends really on the tropes it's following.
Some go heavy into magi-tech which normally turns more military science fantasy kind of stuff.
Others like The Madness Season is a way more pure sci-fi, that just happens to have a vampire as the protagonist.
Some other times it's way more pure fantasy that occurs in a vaguely future place think lots of Japanese RPGs.
I would have to say that I enjoy fantasy more but only because my exposure to sci-fi has been rather limited. I'm always on a look out for sci-fi stories that catch my interest but I've not really been able to find many that catch my fancy. (I enjoy dark tones, such as in "Naked Lunch" and a "A Scanner Darkly") That being said I'm a sucker for black and white science fiction films.
There are lots of dark SF stories to be had out there. A Google search will turn up a ton.
Trike wrote: "There are lots of dark SF stories to be had out there. A Google search will turn up a ton."I thought you were the group equivalent? www.trikeisasgoodasgoogle.com That's not a valid URL?
Sarah Anne wrote: "Trike wrote: "There are lots of dark SF stories to be had out there. A Google search will turn up a ton."I thought you were the group equivalent? www.trikeisasgoodasgoogle.com That's not a valid ..."
Hahah I actually clicked that, then read what it said.
Trike wrote: "There are lots of dark SF stories to be had out there. A Google search will turn up a ton."I really should expand my reading list, any recommendations?
R.A. wrote: "Trike wrote: "There are lots of dark SF stories to be had out there. A Google search will turn up a ton."I really should expand my reading list, any recommendations?"
I started with Ender's game and Red Rising trilogy.
Since I apparently have a rep to protect, here's a starter list for you:Damnation Alley - post nuclear war with a main character named Hell Tanner
Use of Weapons - if you like cynicism and dark wit, prepare for a double-barrel blast to the soul
Wool Omnibus - deep in the dark after the world died, people live... if you can call it living.
Destroying Angel (and the other Carlucci books) - neonoir grittiness
Any collection of Harlan Ellison stories. I think Simon & Garfunkel are singing about the miniature madman."Hello darkness, my old friend," indeed. Look for Jefty Was Five, I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream and A Boy And His Dog.
Blood Music - oh god, the blood music
Flowers for Algernon - if this doesn't break your heart then you don't have one
And, of course, Frankenstein.
Trying to decide on the original question has kept me looking at my book collection and trying to work out which I have the most of sci fi or fantasy.I find that I fluctuate back and forth, different times of my life I have been heavily into one or the other. These days ( retired) I go with a series , then move to the other genre to "have a break".
I find that genres annoy me: there are so many good books that blend so many areas together. The only advantage of a genre is that I know I wont read a non fictional book ( well if it is not about science) and I don't like true life books and so on.
Once the book is either in the sci fi / fantasy/ horror genres there are no barriers to which ones I will read
I prefer fantasy. When I read Sci-Fi I have to be mentally geared to absorb complex concepts half the time. But when I read fantasy I can float away and dream. Maybe it has to do with the selection of reads I have come across.
I prefer scifi in movies and fantasy when it comes to books. Any movie that reminds me of Star Wars catches my eye.
Definitely Science Fiction. I can't get into Fantasy, except the moderate bit of fantasy in Star Wars movies. But I prefer the harder Star Trek. For books, I was an Arthur C Clarke fan in my early days, and also liked Jerry Pournelle, and others who wrote more in the Scifi vein.
Trike wrote: "I prefer SF, mostly because I like science and gadgets and extrapolation (of tech, of current events, of the impact of both on the other). But I've also read my fair share of Fantasy. I like advent..."The irony, of course, being that Star Wars is more Fantasy than SF.
I prefer the fantasy stories set in a SF-like universe. Give me a story about Sith vs Jedi, and I'm all smiles. So, another science fantasy reader. Gun to head, I prefer pure fantasy over pure sci-fi.
I can't make a definitive judgement. As long as the story is something that captures my interest, I'm in.
It’s all good!!! I always read Fantasy but for the last couple of years I’ve read a few Sci-Fi books and I ready have liked them. The only problem is that I can only read so many words in a day.
I read both, but I don't like the sci-fi that is all science with little or no character development like Encounter with Tiber. It reminded me of a later Tom Clancy book with a preponderance of explanations and scientific pontifications with little or no "personal" story tying them together. On the other hand, a fantasy with everything but the kitchen sink thrown in like Once We Were Kings bothers me too. I have to take the blurb from the book to the It's like [popular name]: yes or no? thread because it's a prime example
Silvana wrote: "I like both but I find myself being more picky when it comes to scifi subgenres. E.g. I prefer reading space opera or military SF."Funny how we changed. I wrote that comment back in early 2016 but now I feel I am much more picky about fantasy (epic fantasy now tires me) and liking SF more.
I tend to prefer SF. There is good stuff in both genres, but when I look back at my reads it is the (hard) SF novels that mainly blew my mind.
Phillip wrote: "Trike wrote: "I prefer SF, mostly because I like science and gadgets and extrapolation (of tech, of current events, of the impact of both on the other). But I've also read my fair share of Fantasy....The irony, of course, being that Star Wars is more Fantasy than SF."
Yep. Hence the joke. In any discussion like this I usually end up pointing out that Stars War and Trek are Fantasy, which I probably did in this thread.
Also, I made this: https://www.goodreads.com/photo/user/...
Silvana wrote: "Silvana wrote: "I like both but I find myself being more picky when it comes to scifi subgenres. E.g. I prefer reading space opera or military SF."Funny how we changed. I wrote that comment back in early 2016 but now I feel I am much more picky about fantasy (epic fantasy now tires me) and liking SF more...."
Yeah, the more deeply you get into anything the more you notice the similarities shared among those things. Whether that’s literature, music, or movies, it becomes harder to be original, unique, or even slightly new. It all ends up looking alike.
That’s the main reason there’s such a disconnect between a general audience and critics or professionals. There’s always that one musician that other musicians think is amazing, but the object of their esteem never connects with audiences. That’s because the practitioners of the art truly appreciate the abilities on display, while the average listener just thinks, “It doesn’t have a beat and I can’t dance to it,” and goes on to listen to the latest poptart.
Gabi wrote: "I tend to prefer SF. There is good stuff in both genres, but when I look back at my reads it is the (hard) SF novels that mainly blew my mind."Do you think it's the ideas make them more mind blowing and thus memorable?
Trike wrote: "Silvana wrote: "Silvana wrote: "I like both but I find myself being more picky when it comes to scifi subgenres. E.g. I prefer reading space opera or military SF."
Funny how we changed. I wrote th..."
Well said.
I have abandoned many fantasy series I started and once the Peter Grant, ASOIAF, Gentleman Bastards, and Monstress series are finished, I might ran out of fantasy series. I hope Jade City sequel is good.
Silvana wrote: "Do you think it's the ideas make them more mind blowing and thus memorable? ..."Yes, definitely. In general I need to exercise more brain aerobic while reading SF than Fantasy. For me Fantasy often stands and falls with the characters, whereas I can gush over a SF novel without caring for any character at all (i.e. Three-Body Problem)
Trike wrote: "Also, I made this: https://www.goodreads.com/photo/user/... "Cool chart. However, thanks to "Rebels," Star Wars now has time travel. A terrible call, in my opinion, but here we are. Two more to go!
Trike wrote: "Yeah, the more deeply you get into anything the more you notice the similarities shared among those things. Whether that’s literature, music, or movies, it becomes harder to be original, unique, or even slightly new. It all ends up looking alike.That’s the main reason there’s such a disconnect between a general audience and critics or professionals. There’s always that one musician that other musicians think is amazing, but the object of their esteem never connects with audiences. That’s because the practitioners of the art truly appreciate the abilities on display, while the average listener just thinks, “It doesn’t have a beat and I can’t dance to it,” and goes on to listen to the latest poptart."
Then, the general audience screams that entertainers have run out of ideas. The producers don't have any passion. They have money and want to make more. Like Ice Cube said in "Twenty-Two Jump Street": "Do the exact same shit as last time!"
Phillip wrote: "Trike wrote: "Also, I made this: https://www.goodreads.com/photo/user/... "Cool chart. However, thanks to "Rebels," Star Wars now has time travel. A terrible call, in my opinion, but here we are...."
Also thanks to Rebels and Clone Wars , we have interspecies breeding.
If Legends counts as an alternate universe, we have them all.
Depends on my mood, but generally, I'd give a slight edge to SciFi. There are simply more good standalone books out there in SciFi, while Fantasy tends to come at least in trilogy length and therefore needs a longer commitment. Wasp, Beacon 23 or The Space Merchants are prime examples of what I like about SciFi: Great stories that are not longer than they have to be. It is much harder to find stuff like this is in Fantasy, even when you tend to go more for Heroic- rather than Epic-Fantasy. But, as I said, it often depends on my mood and A Song of Ice and Fire is still my favourite series of all time.
I'm more into fantasy but I try to pick up some SF here and there. Maybe it's just because I don't know that much about SF subgenres and what exactly I'd like the most.
I definitely read more fantasy growing up; maybe through college. Then I hit a period of fantasy fatigue where I couldn't bear to read fantasy anymore (thanks Terry Goodkind!) . That lasted a good several years during which I read sci-fi almost exclusively. Then Brandon Sanderson happened. I still can't believe how late I got into sci-fi (early to mid 20's maybe?). What's weirder is I can't really remember what books started it for me, or exactly when I started, whereas with fantasy I can name like the first half dozen fantasy books I ever read that really got me into it, and the exact year I started (8th grade).
Nowadays I'm basically half and half between the two.
I was reading both at an early age (pre-teen and teenage years):Sci-Fi = Heinlein, Andre Norton, Clifford Simak, Ray Bradbury
Fantasy = L. Frank Baum, Andre Norton (she wrote in both genres), C.S. Lewis, Burroughs
Silvana wrote: "Phillip wrote: "Trike wrote: "Also, I made this: https://www.goodreads.com/photo/user/... "Cool chart. However, thanks to "Rebels," Star Wars now has time travel. A terrible call, in my opinion, ...
Also thanks to Rebels and Clone Wars , we have interspecies breeding."
I totally forgot about the time portal! I never watched Clone Wars - who bumped jiggly bits?
Tomas wrote: "I'm more into fantasy but I try to pick up some SF here and there. Maybe it's just because I don't know that much about SF subgenres and what exactly I'd like the most."You should find books that are similar to sci-fi movies you like. Cinema is an excellent gateway drug.
I love both equally. Don’t know about the argument about Star Trek and Star Wars and whether they are sci fi or sci fi fantasy or just fantasy but I do know that because of Star Trek many very smart people were inspired to make the science fiction of the Original series and TNG into science fact. They’ve even been able to make a transporter. It only transports an atom but it works. Today an atom...tomorrow a molecule. Then who knows. And I’m currently writing this post on a hand held personal computer/communicator that has access to all of the information in the world. Also many NASA scientists and astronauts were inspired by the series. Now to strive for the perfect world with no hunger and no wars.
SciFi and Fantasy Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
The Space Merchants (other topics)Wasp (other topics)
Beacon 23 (other topics)
Once We Were Kings (other topics)
Encounter with Tiber (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Arthur C. Clarke (other topics)Jerry Pournelle (other topics)
Debra Doyle (other topics)
Octavia E. Butler (other topics)
Because on the one hand: dragons.
On the other hand: spaceships.