World, Writing, Wealth discussion
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What's primary, what's secondary?
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Nik wrote: "Lawyers envy supposedly simpler tasks of the truck drivers, while the latter envy the quiet of big office buildings. "Interesting comparison. I am a lawyer and my father was a truck driver. He pushed me to go to college so I could work with my head and not my hands. After nearly 20 years, sometimes I think working with your hands is far more rewarding than working with your head.
I dont have an answer. Happiness is momentary and fleeting. Do want you can to grab it as often as you can - whatever that may be.
That's a long question! I don't know. I'm happy. :) I'm reading a history book at the moment, among several others, and the author commented that happy people don't write the history books. Translate to the micro and maybe that accounts for a short answer.I think it's Abraham Maslow who wrote about the hierarchy of needs. You know, you need certain basics before you can go onto other types of fulfillment. It sounds logical to me. So ultimately it depends on each individual.
Michael wrote: "sometimes I think working with your hands is far more rewarding than working with your head..."At times this was my line of thought too, especially when you have some multi-million contract to finish until midnight and it feels like half of the world is standing still waiting for you to produce some papers -:)
While a driver waiting outside the restaurant would probably give a lot to be inside with that blonde/brunette/whatever his boss dining with -:)
M.L. wrote: "That's a long question!....the hierarchy of needs..."
Yeah, maybe too long for a thread's format -:)
Googled the hierarchy. Interesting.
I guess the actual filling for the top two tiers of his pyramid of esteem and self-actualization shall differ among individuals...
I will be totally happy when I will reach the age of 65, be able to finally retire from work for good and have more quiet time with my family, while having all that extra time available to write books. Aaah, bliss!
I love this discussion, Nik. It's something I've been thinking about and discussing with my husband for the past year or two. It sounds a lot like stoic philosophy. I've been listening to the audio readings of letters by Seneca the Younger, a stoic philosopher who lived thousands of years ago, whose advice and philosophies still very much apply. (As an aside, I find it interesting that the problems people faced then still abound now, in a time when we're experiencing the highest standard of living in history.) --You can find the audio recordings on Tim Ferriss' blog, The Tim Ferriss Show on iTunes.
We are truly bombarded with messages as to the 'correct' way to live your life, and the life milestones we need to achieve: college, marriage, baby, retirement.
But that template isn't for everyone, and the fact that I didn't have to ascribe to it was never something that crossed my mind as I was growing up. I thought I'd hit all the high marks, slog through 40 years of cashing paychecks and when I retire, THEN have time to have fun. But that doesn't make sense to me anymore. Unless you really LOVE what you're doing, and have ample time for relaxation and family, it can seem like you're trapped in a wheel.
You think you can't escape the wheel because you need the money your job provides, in order to buy food (of course), and cars, and a house, and clothes, and a thousand other things we've been told we need.
But what if we didn't need those things? What if we broke our addiction to consumerism and that little endorphin spike we get when we get something new and shiny? If we needed less and spent less, how much more could we do with our resources?
(Of course this model only works if you're one of the middle class who gets manicures, lattes, and has a Kohl's card. If you're truly in poverty, this obviously wouldn't be an option.)
This reply is getting away from me a little bit, but the crux is this: Adjust the sources of your happiness away from things and the expectations other people have of you to what truly matters to YOU. At the end of your life, will you wish you had another leather jacket, or will you wish you spent more time with your mother before she passed? Or will you wish X, Y, Z? The source of happiness lies within you and you have the power of choice to make it happen.
My husband and I are debating selling our home, 90% of our possessions and buying a van to live in with our two dogs and 2-year-old child. If we were free of those encumbrances, we would have so much more financial freedom, and freedom of time, which aligns with our personal priorities. (Plus, the reality is we only use about 40% of our 1200sq foot home and even fewer of our possessions with any regularity.)
I'll refer anyone who cares to the book Essentialism: The Disciplined Pursuit of Less and any documentaries about Tiny Houses or Minimalism (Such as Tiny or Living Small, or The Minimalists). (Or read our journey toward minimalism on my blog, The Go Family.)
"If today were the last day of my life, would I want to do what I am about to do today?" Steve Jobs
As to your last question, I think peace of mind is paramount to happiness. That contentment has to come from inside you, not be dependent on anything else such as a career or achievements, because what happens if those are taken away from you? If your happiness comes from within, nothing can shake it.
WHEW. Thank you for this discussion!
Tiny houses forever!I was fortunate becaidr I was raised to value family over material gain and social success. I am now very grateful for those lessons. It's amazing how free you are when you care very little what others think or expect of you.
Interesting and elaborate opinion, N.L!Once philosophy was the major science and scientists/philosophers were dealing with the grand things: of purpose of life, material and spiritual and so on. Nowadays, philosophy concerning our own everyday life is considered weird at best. Because, supposedly we should be busy doing practical things and stuffing our houses with tangible nothingness.
For a long time my only property was a tape recorder and it didn't undermine the enjoyment of life and even amplified it, as you don't have to worry much about anything.
Love the idea of the van. Not sure such lifestyle is for everyone, but if you feel you really want it, would be a waste not trying (maybe without selling the house during the pilot?).
Re Some points you make like: postponing things, retirement at 40, I think I'll open separate threads for.
Yeah, the van is a pretty extreme example, but it makes for a vivid illustration of how little we really need to maintain our level of happiness when our happiness is based on the 'right' things for us. I look forward to those threads ;)
I find it interesting to read what people regret the most when they are facing the end of their lives. They never wish that they had worked harder, earned more, got to the top etc - their regrets are all about people and love. The people they upset, irreconcilable rifts, lost loves. I think that speaks volumes.
It depends. If you're able to support your children with a job that gives you the kind of time you want with them, then that's fine. But all the "time with the kids" in the world isn't worth it if you can't put food on the table or pay the rent/mortgage. If your kids truly value you as family and aren't just selfish, spoiled brats, they will understand mommy and daddy couldn't spend that time with them if they were busy trying to support the family (maybe they won't understand it at 6, but they will appreciate it when they're old enough to understand).It's not about how much time you spend, but the quality. If all you have is a couple hours a week, then spend it with them. Even if you're "too tired" after a long day at work, at least sit on the couch with them and watch their favorite show or movie.
On the other hand, if you're a rich oligarch, then you might be able to sell off all your businesses, put the money into passive investments, and live off the income stream. Then, sure, go for it.
JJ, Absolutely! Basic necessities are...necessary. And Quality of Time is indeed crucial. If you're not truly present and engaged during the time you're with your loved ones, you might as well not be there at all. But for some people, a couple hours a week isn't enough for them, and that's who this discussion is for. If someone is happy with their work, that's wonderful, and this doesn't apply to those people.But a lot of people don't realize they aren't necessarily predetermined to work a 9-5 job, 40 hours/week for the entirety of their middle years. There ARE other ways of living that are attainable for a lot of people. Note, not 'ALL people'. Like I said, for those who need to work to put food on the table this is probably not an option. But for most people, there are a lot of expenditures they can cut out because they're not Essential and not truly necessary. It isn't limited to the 'rich'.
If the starbucks stops, closet full of clothes and shoes and kitchen full of pans and gadgets makes you happy, that's fine. But many people are dissatisfied with their life and are constantly searching for happiness in the next purchase, and that's where the cycle of consumerism can be harmful and can distract from true problems in a person's life. It doesn't help that our society is crammed with advertisements for purchases everywhere you look.
For me, and many people out there, by cutting back on the things they own and cutting down on expenditures, they find they have more money to put good food on the table and to take adventures with the ones they love and do things that add value to their lives.
But I didn't know this way of life was an option until recently. I was set on a path of working my whole life and achieving milestones and buying things that symbolized success to myself and others. And I'm excited that I finally realize I don't have to live a certain way and that by making a few changes that don't even detract from my happiness, the options for what I can do with my time have expanded exponentially.
Pretty sure I couldn't have phrased it any better -:)
Nik wrote: "Pretty sure I couldn't have phrased it any better -:)"Hear hear, beautifully put N.L. I've come to realise since publishing and keeping abreast of related topics is that more and more people are coming round to this way of thinking. They're discovering that there is more to life than spending whole days trudging round the mall and buying a ton of stuff that they neither need nor can afford, and that will probably be next year's landfill.
Thanks guys :) I'm heartened to know that more people are breaking the mold and going out to find what happiness really means to them. The next generation is going to be even freer thinkers!
As others have said, there are necessities, but an important point is those necessities will be with you throughout your life, so some, at least, will try to find a way to provide those necessities, no matter what. Accordingly, they will work hard now so things will be easier for them in the future. I don't think there is a simple answer to this question, because what may happen is you generate security for yourself when older, and then find you have missed out on some things. So my answer is to find balance, and try to get the most for yourself out of every hour. By most, I mean what is important to you, and also means some of the time sitting in the sun doing very little but enjoying yourself. Some of the time, but not all of it.
Ian wrote: "So my answer is to find balance, and try to get the most for yourself out of every hour..."Can only second that balance seems to be the key factor
Money is important without a doubt. However, how much is enough is the key. I would go for just enough so I didn't have to sacrifice my family life to watch my kids grow up, spend time with mum, dad and sister. Those are paramount.
N.L. wrote: "JJ, Absolutely! Basic necessities are...necessary. And Quality of Time is indeed crucial. If you're not truly present and engaged during the time you're with your loved ones, you might as well not ..."Couldn't agree more. And this is partly why the middle class is dying. Everything about life comes down to choices. To an extent, governments make choices for us we can't avoid, but we are responsible for so many more that either hurt us in the long run, or limit us in ways we weren't prepared for.
If you can cut back your spending in order to cut back your workload, then that's great, but there are a lot more in the middle class than ever struggling to make ends meet while they're making that choice to spend more time at home. We talk a lot about the lower classes in this group, and they don't have luxury. Often, they've cut back their spending as much as they can and they're still working at all hours to make sure their kids have clothes for school and food in their bellies.
You even encounter some rich folks who end up sacrificing that family time because their job requires it...maybe they don't have to or maybe it's a sign of how much work goes into getting ahead in this world. But end of the day, it's all about what's important and what's realistic.
So, what should one aspire to achieve in his/her/its life?
Nik wrote: "So, what should one aspire to achieve in his/her/its life?"Ask yourself what you want to be remembered for by whom after you die. Then work to make it more probable.
I'm an old person, and I've been financially responsible all my life, so I have no debts and have met the primary need for food, shelter, transportation, medical care. If you can reach this stage of life, you realize that what matters most is personal relationships with family and friends, and that should be a priority. And laying your head on the pillow at night with a clear conscience feels really good. I mess up sometimes, and I pay for it with sleepless nights. Good motivation for doing better tomorrow.
Scout wrote: ".....what matters most is personal relationships with family and friends, and that should be a priority. And laying your head on the pillow at night with a clear conscience feels really good...."Really worthy aspirations!
If the necessities of life were met, then I would still have chosen my career. I liked being a paralegal in family law. I helped others through a rough time, challenged my mind, felt a sense of accomplishment and was part of a community of other law office support professionals who helped each other. Those things made me happy. Losing those things earlier in life than expected made me unhappy and lonely. Being older and approaching 65, the disability aspects along with the aging process prevents me from trying to live in a manner that I believed would make me happy - to live in an RV, travel the country and spend part of each year with each of my grandchildren.
I think at different points in our lives, different things are primary.
Unless you believe in life after death or multiple lives, we are given just one, which we try to decide how to live or often forced to live in a particular way by circumstances.
We are bombarded with messages: get an education, get a job, buy a car, marry, buy a house, have kids and so on...
Most don't give it a second thought and just follow what is expected, along the above messages.
But let's not forget what's primary and what is secondary at best. Is it worth it to slave long hours as a high end consultant, barely seeing your kids, just to drive a some super-duper Hummer and spending two weeks on Maldives during the summer? Is it worthy to spend your entire life building some business empire, employing every tactic on the book and often those not on the book - to succeed, to outperform and to make it big, if you can't sleep at night because of some stuff?
The answer may be yes, but only if that makes you happy, in my opinion. Because it's all about balance - strained and unpleasant moments vs happy and relaxed ones. It would be naive to think that entirely non-stressful life is possible. But the balance seems important.
In different countries the recurrent statistics show that much higher percent of people are not satisfied with their jobs. That's some sad data, because we spend at work most of our lives. It's for a reason people seek creative outlet - be it books or youtubing or whatever...
If you are happy playing your fiddle at Times Square and getting few coins from a passerby - it's fine, just like for someone else - it would be the eternal adrenaline of competing, climbing the ladder and so on. It's individual. And I don't mean you need to indulge in laziness or fear, vice versa - to overcome them, but still to balance things right.
Also sometimes happens that we don't know what would make us happy -:). Lawyers envy supposedly simpler tasks of the truck drivers, while the latter envy the quiet of big office buildings. But the bright side - we can try a few things. Yes - it's still too unusual to see a former CEO working in the kindergarten, so each such case is shown on TV or the entire family going for around the world trip for a year, but these things happen.
However, there are obligations to meet. You don't have to have a family, if you are happy on your own, but if you cared to have one, you have obligations towards it.
Other than that - everything else is open. If you don't like stress - you don't necessarily need to be a high-achiever. But then you might not be able to afford certain things. A question of priorities.
Are money, status, things important? Only if they make you happy or content. You don't compete with anyone, unless you deliberately choose to, but rather live your only life for yourself (and family) and its enjoyment is not something to neglect.
So what's paramount: career, achievements, awards, degrees or maybe something more simple like happiness and peace of mind, and of course for some these are inter-connected?
What do you think?