World, Writing, Wealth discussion
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Beta Reading: What Is It? Who Does It? Is It an Edit?
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My understanding is that a beta reader gives their opinion on the story (are there any plot holes, does this make sense, are the characters relatable, did the story hold their attention etc ). They might point out a few typos along the way, but I don't think they are editing. I have not used beta readers before, but there seem to be quite a few who are happy to for free.
Copyright happens as soon as you write it, so whether published or not, the work is copyrighted.
Marie wrote: "Copyright happens as soon as you write it, so whether published or not, the work is copyrighted."i stand corrected. thank you, Marie, for keeping me from perpetuating myths.
Im using 18 beta-readers to shape the story as its written. I will do 3-4 chapters, send them out and wait for feedback. Some are strangers, a couple are family members, some are friends, some are former employees. The range in age from 16-70 and come from a diverse background. The feedback they give ranges from a star rating to asking questions to giving their opinion. Some edit and find typos and grammar issues.
Sometimes I will ask specific questions of my beta-readers so as to make sure the novel is developing the way I want it to.
Each week I do a drawing of Amazon Gift Cards for my beta-readers of $5, $10 and $15. As a way to say thank you.
After the novel is complete it will go to a Copy Editor for a final polishing.
As a clarification on what Marie said about copyright, yes she is correct, but there's a huge but (in the US) - if you dont copyright within 90 days of publication you lose the ability to collect statutory damages and attorneys fees. You have to prove up damages. And for an unpublished work that will require a damages expert. Damages expert witness fees start at $15,000. An solid IP attorney for a copyright case will cost over $200,000 for litigation through trial.
Please register your work -- www.copyright.gov
I used a beta reader for my third novel. The feedback was excellent, a completed beta form similar to the one in the jamigold link with answers and comments plus a full beta edit of my manuscript using Word's track changes. I'll use the service again for sure and wish I'd done it for my first two novels.
Alex G wrote: "another link to beta reader checklist:http://jamigold.com/for-writers/works..."
Wow, that is extensive! :)
The US registration requirement for full enforceability is super important !Beta readers are helpful and similar to beta testers of apps and programs. Their prime target is to find 'bugs' and share user's experience. The hardest task for an author collecting multiple feedback is to distinguish between personal taste of a beta and a pattern that something doesn't work if a few return with similar comments regarding the same thing
Michael wrote: "Im using 18 beta-readers to shape the story as its written. I will do 3-4 chapters, send them out and wait for feedback. Some are strangers, a couple are family members, some are friends, some are ..."That seems like a lot of feedback to keep in order! Do they ever conflict? Just curious.
M.L. wrote: "That seems like a lot of feedback to keep in order! Do they ever conflict? Just curious. "Absolutely. In the past 4 chapters I just introduced my heroine. She's 1/2 French, 1/2 Egyptian, she's a graduate student, budding professor, she's beautiful and she's brave and just a hint of sneaky.
My female beta-readers love her. My male ones, not so much. But hey you cant please everyone.
Its when I get 4 or so beta readers giving me feedback not based on personal preferences that I make changes. Its not too hard to figure out the personal from the real critique though.
Do you have to have a license to be a beta reader? Accreditation? Haha!Michael, I love the way you are progressing with your novel. You have your website, "http://www.resurrectionofthescrolls " which, as you said on another thread, you launched with a focus on all things Italian since your novel is set in Italy. You also apparently write and pay attention to readers as you go along with your first(?) draft. Not for every author, I'm sure. I couldn't write that way, but as you say I'm sure you pick up pointers that make sense, but discard what you don't see as pertinent. Pretty neat.
Joanna wrote: "Do you have to have a license to be a beta reader? Accreditation? Haha!Michael, I love the way you are progressing with your novel. You have your website, "http://www.resurrectionofthescrolls " wh..."
Thank you very much. I consider myself a story teller, not a writer. Good story tellers are more interested in having a live audience to be able to see the reaction of the faces as he/she tells their story and can play off of that.
What do we say in law -- when you dont have the law, argue the facts, when you dont have the facts argue the law - well Im not going to win any awards with my writing so I hope to tell my readers a great story.
I love beta reading/developmental reading although I'm picky about what projects I take on. I also require that I'm the last or close to the last beta who will handle the MS. Maybe that's arrogant but I don't want to waste my time or talent so tons of other people can leave conflicting footprints all over it. I'm the annoying person who says 'hey, that could never happen' or 'wait, that's not what he said at the beginning' while watching television or a film. Holes bug the crap out of me lol.
Tara wrote: "I love beta reading/developmental reading although I'm picky about what projects I take on. I also require that I'm the last or close to the last beta who will handle the MS. Maybe that's arrogant ..."Tara, I love beta readers who can spot the holes and have the guts to speak up. Would you please be a beta reader for my third book when I've finished the first draft? What do you need to know before deciding whether you will take on a project?
Tara wrote: " I'm the annoying person who says 'hey, that could never happen' or 'wait, that's not what he said at the beginning' while watching television or a film. Holes bug the crap out of me lol. "Haha, that's great, Tara. I'm pretty good at spotting that stuff too. Hopefully that skill transfers to my own work. I have a ton of characters in each book, some of them can read and some can't, some of them were at the dinner table that night and some weren't, and keeping track of all that gives me a thrill! Also the thought that I might mess up (like have someone illiterate read a telegram) scares the living daylights out of me :D
MarieLol, my literary spirit animal!
Joanna
I'd love to discuss it further with you. Drop me a line at tarawoodsturner@yahoo.com :)
Tara: Will do that tomorrow. Thank you for responding so quickly and positively.
JoannaLooking forward to hearing from you :)
While it wasn't a beta read, I can certainly vouch for Tara's insight in reviewing what works and what doesn't.
E.M.Many thanks :) Now...if you really want to be kind PLEASE tell me what's *really* up with the deaf/mute mindtrel sitting in the window...it's killing me! The tension in that scene was epic.
Tara wrote: "I love beta reading/developmental reading although I'm picky about what projects I take on. ...."Sounds like one more of Tara's endless great qualities I haven't previously known about -:)
NikSorry, boss, lol!
Tim
Lost my mom last year so fighting tears at your story.
Thank you Tim. Double hugs to you as my mother was, hands down, my absolute best friend and spiritual twin. She's the emotional presence behind my book. Living our best lives is our memorial, I believe.
Michael wrote: "M.L. wrote: "That seems like a lot of feedback to keep in order! Do they ever conflict? Just curious. "Absolutely. In the past 4 chapters I just introduced my heroine. She's 1/2 French, 1/2 Egypt..."
I was still gobsmacked at the thought of having 18 beta readers, but then I thought . . . it may be like writer's workshop (?) where that many read and give feedback. That's fun too, and a bit exciting. I think the give & take since everyone has a go at reading everyone's story.
M.L. wrote: "t may be like writer's workshop (?) where that many read and give feedback. That's fun too, and a bit exciting. I think the give & take since everyone has a go at reading everyone's story. "No, that would be a nightmare. Think of it as a focus group. I want my book to appeal to the broadest range of readers imaginable. So I found the widest most diverse group I could. I even wanted beta-readers that didnt like or read historical fiction. There are 2 couples in the 18, and they are the only ones that talk about the novel. I dont want 18 of them talking to each other. I want pure opinions that havent been filtered through other beta-readers.
I have 7 men, 11 women. Youngest is 16 (who doesnt read HF) to 70 yrs old. Most are in the 30-40s. 4 are in Italy. 2 are in Canada. 12 are in the US. All levels of education from students to HS grads to Phds. All different levels of social-economic classes. None are authors. One is a librarian with 30 yrs of experience.
My thought is that if I want to sell a lot of books, it better appeal to a wide audience. Will my experiment work, I have no idea. But I think its making the story much better. And Im pretty sure I will get 18 reviews on Amazon pretty quickly... lol
MichaelThat's exactly why I was always thrilled when people who don't have children agreed to review my parenting book. Of course the feedback from parents was invaluable but I also wanted to judge the quality of the writing and not just the content. A lot of different perspectives is so important when you need an assessment.
Hugs to Tim and Tara <3I had not heard of a beta reader either until I joined goodreads and my book was already being formatted. I probably should have been patient and run it in front of some other eyes before publishing. I am not sure how I would handle contradicting opinions on subjective stuff. I would definitely want to be alerted about mistakes though.
MarieAgain, I mirror your feelings exactly. The subjective feedback can be tricky but you'd be surprised how exciting even that can be. At the the end of the day it is always your decision but the curve balls other people can throw you can really give you some awesome ideas. Even when you don't agree it at least makes you 100% sure of what it is you *do* want, which is cool. My husband and I had some really fiery arguments about certain elements in the book and it was actually helpful. We both realized where the other was truly passionate and it made us proud to back the other up. We learned when to push the other creatively and when to trust the other's instincts. Of course this kind of dynamic is more typical of a writing partner and not necessarily a beta but the underlying principle is similar.
Tara wrote: "E.M.Many thanks :) Now...if you really want to be kind PLEASE tell me what's *really* up with the deaf/mute mindtrel sitting in the window...it's killing me! The tension in that scene was epic."
Haha, can't do it, Tara! :)
*facepalm* *looks over goodreads policy on whining*
Tara wrote: "*facepalm* *looks over goodreads policy on whining*"okay, okay, he's a zombie. Bulls is actually one big Walking Dead fanfic in disguise!
*looks up gr policy on bullying*Lol, okay I guess I earned that one! But don't have your spies follow me around the city ha ha!
Tara wrote: "*looks up gr policy on bullying*Lol, okay I guess I earned that one! But don't have your spies follow me around the city ha ha!"
The official policy on bullying: Goodreads TOS prohibits personal attacks. You can flag bullying content or report it to support@goodreads.com.
(I have no idea why the flag options in some places recently changed to say "ad hominem attacks" instead of just attacking another member, the TOS hasn't changed -- *sigh* such a specific legal term with a slippery definition/usage they should have left it as attacks not allowed in the flag choices; I wish "ad hominem" hadn't gotten so overused by indie author communities for everything anyone took personally it even crept in to some flag screens.)
DebbieI was just joking with E.M. About the bullying stuff but your response was considerate, helpful and interesting. Thanks :)
I agree with Marie as well!Beta reader question, do you ask for Beta feedback as you are writing the book or after completing the first draft?
M.L. wrote: "I agree with Marie as well!Beta reader question, do you ask for Beta feedback as you are writing the book or after completing the first draft?"
My beta readers give feedback as I write. Their feedback alters and changes my writing and the story. They are shaping the story as its written. Ive had to re-write several subplot lines and even removed one entirely from the outline.
If you are a bit egotistical about your writing then this is not the way you want to write your novel.
Michael wrote: "M.L. wrote: "I agree with Marie as well!Beta reader question, do you ask for Beta feedback as you are writing the book or after completing the first draft?"
My beta readers give feedback as I wr..."
I think it's more expectations and being clear on those.
From what I've seen in another author group, a really huge one, people ask for Beta readers for their MS of 60K words 100K words, or whatever it is, so a completed draft/rough draft, and the readers are often but not always writers.
So the author and the requestor just need to be clear on expectations.
It's good to bring this up too in a "Beta" thread so that others may have a full view of what may be entailed in the description of Beta reader and not be surprised. They mentioned that too in that group, be clear as to what you want from your Beta. Ultimately all the descriptions are good to know about.
M.L. wrote: "So the author and the requestor just need to be clear on expectations."I think anything less than complete honesty is a waste of time for the author and the beta reader. If you (proverbial) want beta readers to correct your spelling and grammar, get a editor. The benefit of having beta readers you dont know is that they wont spare your feelings. Your mom, dad, sister, co-workers, spouses wont tell you that your story sucks. But your beta readers will. My story has been picked apart page by page.
I have one beta reader that picks out the smallest most minuscule plot issues that is drives me crazy but it also makes me think. He argued with me about how my main female character who is a grad student shouldnt be driving an SUV. Grad students cant afford cars... lol but he makes me think and has made me re-write a few paragraphs.
I also would never have authors be beta-readers unless you're selling your book to authors. Too much bias.
Interesting about authors as beta readers being biased. How so? Do you mean they might miss inconsistencies in plot, etc?
Tara wrote: "Interesting about authors as beta readers being biased. How so? Do you mean they might miss inconsistencies in plot, etc?"Every author has their own style. Their style might make it into their analysis. Their style is not your style. I suppose if you are writing for awards, then authors might be your best beta-readers.
I went through this with legal writing. I could show the same motion to 5 lawyers and they would all write it differently. Until I realized I wasnt writing motions for lawyers, I was writing them for judges. So I found a judge and asked the judge read my motions. Who is your target audience ? Write for them. Let them review and critique your writing.
MichaelBut many writers are voracious readers. Wouldn't it be a double victory to find beta readers who are skilled in your genre?
I guess, you want to hear more 'this works for me' or 'doesn't work because......", then 'I would've done it differently...' -:)
Tara wrote: "MichaelBut many writers are voracious readers. Wouldn't it be a double victory to find beta readers who are skilled in your genre?"
I am sure I am in the minority in this opinion. So please keep that in mind, but I put having authors as beta-readers in the same category as too many cooks in the kitchen...
Im not looking for someone to tell me how to make the sauce, just someone to tell me if tastes good or needs more salt... lol
A lot of writers want beta readers, but what exactly is a beta read? And what's the difference between a beta read and an edit, in particular, a developmental edit (which is the closest thing to a beta read)? Has a beta read supplanted the developmental edit?
Hey! I just searched and found a timely article. Fancy that.
https://www.sfwa.org/2016/05/not-read...
In the past--that is, before the advent of self-publishing--beta reading happened before the submission to an agent or publisher and was usually done pro bono, but now there are a plethora of beta reader services who charge. Have you used these services? Was it worth it?
Then, there is the question of confidentiality and plagiarism. Are you a trusting soul?