The Darkest Part of the Forest spoilers allowed

[Jalilah]

This is the spoilers allowed thread for our YA winner of our Fae themed September 15-November 14 group read, The Darkest Part of the Forest by Holly Black!

[Margaret]

I'm adding a comment here so I can be notified when people start commenting. I read it earlier this year, and loved it. I also got to hear Holly Black talk about it at a conference (she's quite funny, by the way), and if I can find my notes from the conference, I'll share!

[Jalilah]

Margaret wrote: "I'm adding a comment here so I can be notified when people start commenting. I read it earlier this year, and loved it. I also got to hear Holly Black talk about it at a conference (she's quite fun..."

Oh yes! I'd love to read about Holly Black's talk!
I've enjoyed everything I've read of her up to now, but I think The Darkest Part of the Forest is her absolute best up to now.

[Melanti]

I finished this early yesterday morning.

It feels a little crammed to me - like she's packing in every single fairy tale and every bit of action she can think of, and it felt a little rushed and crowded.

I didn't dislike it, but I didn't like it as much as I'd hoped I would.

[Margaret]

Too bad!

I often find that YA moves at a much faster pace and crams a lot in, but that's also why I tend to read it. I don't often read YA, but when I do it's because I need something really fast and action-packed to take my mind off something.

But she does include a lot!

If I remember correctly, what bothered me is at the end the main character suddenly starts talking about how she's sleepy all the time, and has been like that for a long time. Yet, that's not mentioned at all in the book until it's conveniently a plot point. I think that was my issue? I remember being bothered by something that was revealed at the end that should've been there the whole time, though I otherwise really enjoyed it.

I haven't forgotten about digging out my notes, btw. I've been very busy. Hopefully, I'll get a chance this week.

[Kelsey]

I listened to this on audiobook a couple of months ago, and it took me a long time to warm up to Hazel as a protagonist. I was also a little frustrated with the story until some of the big reveals happened, and then it all sort of came together for me.

Holly Black's brand of high school angst isn't really my thing (I remember viscerally hating Tithe when I was a teenager), but I liked how she made the contemporary fae story work.

[Jalilah]

I read this book in June and really liked it. Unfortunately I've forgotten a lot of details because I've read several other Fae themed books in between and am mixing up some of the plots.
If I remember correctly, it seemed unrealistic to me that Hazel had not dealt with some of her early childhood incidents with the Fae. Seeing a school mate murdered must have been so traumatizing and I don't see how anyone could have a normal life after that!
Her parents were infuriating.
Aside from that, I don't remember feeling like it was too rushed.
It was very dense, packed with lots of Fae lore. I have a copy, so when I finish Except the Queen I'll have a look again and might even reread some parts.

[Melanti]

Margaret wrote: "Yet, that's not mentioned at all in the book until it's conveniently a plot point. I think that was my issue? ..."

There's a couple instances that seemed like that for me.

Like the parents.

In the start, when she's talking about her parents when she was younger, they're clearly extremely neglectful, yet they don't seem quite as bad as that present day - but it isn't really clear if that's because the kids are old enough to fend for themselves or something else. But suddenly at the end, it's revealed that the incident with the murdered school mate caused them to reform a bit.

If Black had dwelt more on that incident - talked about the parent's reaction at the time, Hazel's reaction, etc - it wouldn't have felt so out of the blue.

There were several elements like that, that were only talked about when they were relevant, but never mentioned otherwise.

That's part of why it felt so rushed to me - because those elements didn't seem to evolve naturally - they just suddenly appeared.

[Margaret]

I completely forgot about school mate being murdered!

I remember Black discussing the parents, how she wanted to show 'reformed' parents. Not all parents are always good parents--some decide they want to be good, some start good and then turn bad, etc.

[Kelsey]

Ha! I also forgot about the murdered school mate! Though now that you all mention it, I do remember being taken aback that it was treated so casually.

I actually think I got what she was going for with the reformed parents thing, though.

[Katy]

Pretty good story, especially one with teenage characters. I loved the interaction & mystery of the Fae & the interactions with the humans in town. It mostly all worked for me -- understanding that I am comparing it to other YA books, it is much better than average.

[Jalilah]

Kathy wrote: "Pretty good story, especially one with teenage characters. I loved the interaction & mystery of the Fae & the interactions with the humans in town. It mostly all worked for me -- understanding that..."

I agree with you Kathy. Holly Black's books are among my favourite of teen books.

[Jalilah]

Kelsey wrote: "Ha! I also forgot about the murdered school mate! Though now that you all mention it, I do remember being taken aback that it was treated so casually.
I actually think I got what she was going for..."

Melanti wrote: "If Black had dwelt more on that incident - talked about the parent's reaction at the time, Hazel's reaction, etc - it wouldn't have felt so out of the blue."

Very true! Looking back this is probably the main, if not only thing, that irked me in the end.

And if I remember the school mate was not just killed, rather tortured to death. I am looking for that part in the book, but can't find it!

Margaret wrote: " I remember Black discussing the parents, how she wanted to show 'reformed' parents. Not all parents are always good parents--some decide they want to be good, some start good and then turn bad, etc. ..."

Sigh...and as everyone who's a parent can tell you, no matter what parents do the children will end up criticizing their parenting, regardless if the parents were permissive or strict! That is until the kids become parents themselves......
But seriously Hazel and Ben's parents were very neglectful!

[Melanti]

Um, I don't think it says that the kid was tortured to death.
But he had been sitting there awhile and was partially eaten.

Does it say how the kid died? I'd assumed he'd been drowned since he was in the water, but I don't know if it ever says that explicitly.

(It's about page 50 of 340 pgs in my edition)

[Jalilah]

Melanti wrote: "Um, I don't think it says that the kid was tortured to death.
But he had been sitting there awhile and was partially eaten.

Does it say how the kid died? I'd assumed he'd been drowned since he was..."

No, it was a girl. Hazel was hidden as she watched her being murdered. If I remember it's revealed towards the end of the book although it happened when Hazel was younger.
Or maybe I am mixing up books! I'll have to look when I have more time!

[Melanti]

There was more than one school mate killed.
Adam was the first when she was 8.
Natalie was the second when she was 13. (pg 83?)

Those were redcaps - so they weren't torturing her for fun They were slowly draining her of blood but drawing it out so it'd stay fresh the longest.

I was thinking the boy, cause it refers back to that incident more - especially when she's thinking of how her parents have changed.

But it doesn't show the aftermath of either murder- which I'm sure would have been rather traumatic and dramatic.

[Jalilah]

Melanti wrote: "Natalie was the second when she was 13. (pg 83?)Those were redcaps - so they weren't torturing her for fun They were slowly draining her of blood but drawing it out so it'd stay fresh the longest."

Yes, that was it! Only on page 83? I don't know why I remembered it was toward the end of the book!
Both deaths were horrible, but Natalie's sounds slower and more drawn out, so like torture.

[Margaret]

I find this a funny conversation, as I just finished reading the comments about whether Except the Queen is appropriate for a YA audience, and then I come here and we're talking about murdered children in a YA novel, and whether or not their murder constitutes as torture!

I remember them dying now; your comments refreshed my memory!

[Jalilah]

Margaret wrote: "I find this a funny conversation, as I just finished reading the comments about whether Except the Queen is appropriate for a YA audience, and then I come here and we're talking about murdered chil..."

I would imagine very protective parents would not approve of Holly Black.
Her teens drink, smoke, have sex, curse.
She did do a children's series called The Spiderwick Chronicles Box Set. I only read the first, but I think there is nothing in it a parent would disapprove of.

[Margaret]

I really enjoyed The Spiderwick Chronicles, and no, nothing risky in those. They're almost early chapter book level--for 7-9 yr olds., though older kids like them too.

[Jalilah]

One thing I liked was the way Faerie just seemed to merge or border into their town, the people in the town just seemed to accept it, but once outside of the town no one seemed to know about it. It worked for me.

[Margaret]

Lila ( formerly Jalilah ) wrote: "One thing I liked was the way Faerie just seemed to merge or border into their town, the people in the town just seemed to accept it, but once outside of the town no one seemed to know about it. It..."

I liked that too.

[Jalilah]

I also enjoyed the different take on the changeling story. After summoning Jack's Fae mother, Carter's mother refuses to give Jack back and keeps both!

[Melanti]

And for very good reasons too!

[Katy]

Lila ( formerly Jalilah ) wrote: "I also enjoyed the different take on the changeling story. After summoning Jack's Fae mother, Carter's mother refuses to give Jack back and keeps both!"

But then we do find out why Jack's mother had tried to do the changing with him.

[Jalilah]

Kathy wrote:"But then we do find out why Jack's mother had tried to do the changing with him. .."

Oh dear! I read it in June and now forget why she did it!

[Melanti]

Jack's mom had been a lover of the Alderking.
One of the others thought Jack's father had been a mortal. Though, I guess he might have been misled.

So, he was either given as a changeling cause the mom thought the Alderking would be jealous that she had a son by another man.

Or, she was scared that the Alderking might try to kill a "spare heir", and hid Jack away. Possibly she had also slept with the Alderking around the same time? Or perhaps Jack's mortal origins were just a story she spread to keep him safe.

[Jalilah]

Melanti wrote: "Jack's mom had been a lover of the Alderking.
One of the others thought Jack's father had been a mortal. Though, I guess he might have been misled.

So, he was either given as a changeling cause t..."

That's right! I'd forgotten that! ( and probably many other details. I read it in June and have read several other Faerie books in between)
I suspect the first, that Jack's father was mortal. That would explain why Jack wants to remain in the human world.
Maybe I'll reread after all!

[Leah]

Melanti wrote: "In the start, when she's talking about her parents when she was younger, they're clearly extremely neglectful, yet they don't seem quite as bad as that present day - but it isn't really clear if that's because the kids are old enough to fend for themselves or something else. But suddenly at the end, it's revealed that the incident with the murdered school mate caused them to reform a bit."

I understood it as Hazel and Ben both acknowledged their parents neglect in their early years but that the parents didn't see their neglect until the one incident and then worked to become better parents. The catalyst for that change, again as I read it, was when Hazel did the ritual to become a knight in her backyard. At first her and Ben were doing it then Ben went inside and left 8/9 year old Hazel outside by herself, where she was freezing by the time her parents realized she'd been outside all night. In hardcover edition that's revealed by Hazel on pages 300-302.

Melanti wrote: "Does it say how the kid died? I'd assumed he'd been drowned since he was in the water, but I don't know if it ever says that explicitly."

His body is half-eaten as described by Hazel. It doesn't say he drowned before being eaten by the hag, though. In hardcover edition I read that's on pages 49-50.

[Margaret]

The knight scene was my favorite scene in the novel.

[Jalilah]

I finally started re-reading and am really appreciating all the details. There are so many it can be overwhelming at the first read. Now I see how everything, all the details come together in the end.
It's really a book that deserves a second read. That can be said about all 3 novels for this group read!

[Jalilah]

I just made a connection between The Darkest Part of the Forest and Black's Modern Faerie Tale trilogy!
In Chapter 15 when Severin tells Ben his family's story he mentions his father being exiled by the Seelie queen Silarial. Silarial is in all 3 books starting with Tithe: A Modern Faerie Tale. I assume the father is too, but he might have had a different name.

[Margaret]

Ooo, that makes me more excited to read Tithe!

[Margaret]

Ok, so I just now found my notes from the conference I attended where Holly Black was the special guest. At this point, my notes only make half-sense to me. I'll still share them!

I went to several Holly Black panels. In 1, she retold one of her favorite fairy tales--The White Cat. It was quite funny! She's a very funny person. I literally laughed so hard I cried at one point. Afterward, somehow the conversation drifted to the Frouds, and how apparently they leave their books in this pub in NYC and anyone can go there and ask for a copy. Wish I could remember the name of it! And then followed some stories about visiting Terri Windling.

The 2nd thing with her I went to was a reading of her in-progress novel. Oh my, was it good! I wanted to finish the novel! It's about the fae again, and has a young girl watching her father die at a fae's hands, and then the fae takes her and her brother to live with him in fairyland. In the next chapter, they're both teens, and she no longer really remembers being in the human world very much.

Okay, here's where my notes become really jumbled. I went to a book club meeting of Darkest Part of the Forest, with Veronica Schanoes as the monitor and Holly present to answer questions. I completely misunderstood what it was, and didn't realize it was mainly the audience that would discuss the meaning of the book, and Holly would take a back seat. Anyway, here are my random notes, which I'm transcribing exactly as I wrote them:

Why did you choose to alter certain folklore?
changeling--interested in sibling relationships

Their stories of one another hold them in really rigid roles.

King Crackernuts

What fairy tales are diegetic and what are real?

fairy lore vs. fairytale genre

lived life invalidates past lived experience

How we interpret things a lot of the time comes from our own backgrounds, our own experiences.

Magic as real, magic as tradition--don't want to appropriate to a different context.

Racially charged meeting. (So, apparently Carter's parents are black, so part of that heated scene at the end was heated bc/ of past racial tension. It's been a while since I read it, so I don't actually remember any racial issues within the novel).

Magic makes things messy.

In fairy tales, love is enough to bring a loved one back from the grave, in myth love is never enough to bring love back from the dead. --V. Schanoes.

(conversation moved on to monster at end)
sorrow emotional/magic, blood biological/earth
She's an embodiment of earth

Grief does change you.

Thoughts I had while listening:
storytelling to bring oneself out of something bad
reliving story of loss over and over
avoiding certain stories/not telling

Back to Holly Black

Sympathetic resonance

boundaries-excessiveness

most difficult thing--writing romance--feels so technical

Direct quote from HB: "We as people are anxious about originality in a way that makes no sense, is ridiculous. We are influenced all the time, it's where we learn how to tell stories."