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How linear does an Epic Fantasy need to be?
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You need an editor to answer this question because they can tell you what works for your particular moment. Also, don't force elements into a story to have that shocking moment. It won't be a shock, but a nuisance.
Rule of 3s. We (people) are pretty good at keeping track of 3 things at a time. More than that and it gets confusing. So... 3 (main) "plots" taking place, each with an "anchor" (character, location, device, whatever) so the reader transitions back to them. Let's use GoT as an example. You've got the Wall, King's Landing, and the South acting as anchor locations for plots, where characters transition into with their own subplots. That establishes themes for what is going on.
The more locations you have, the harder it is to keep track of what is going on in the entire story, even if everything affects everything else.
But back to your question... be wary of "setting up bowling pins" just so you can knock them down. It's great to build a world that seems to be moving even when the reader is "out of scene," but you need to be cautious that you don't have to go back and fill in the gaps unless you are designing a Caper/Heist/Mystery where that is part of the exposition. Which it sounds like you do as part of a "Reveal."
R/Aaron
Aaron wrote: "Rule of 3s. We (people) are pretty good at keeping track of 3 things at a time. More than that and it gets confusing. So... 3 (main) "plots" taking place, each with an "anchor" (character, locati..."
In some regards, my story is fairly simple location wise. Rarely does it go beyond two physically separate locations at one time. However, there are a lot of characters, and they have their own distinct lives, as people do.
Since it is a fantasy that involves a lot of intrigues, the results of the misdeeds of previous generations, a the machinations of divine beings, it has to be a complex story or it will become cheesy and predictable. If this was real, something would happen and no one would ever see it coming, but that wouldn't make for a very interesting plot. Real lives happen in a vacuum where things often have no predictability or reason.
GoT has complex intrigues, but they all happen on the surface. I'm trying to tell a story of complex intrigues as they befall (mostly) one character as they happen to him, while trying to keep the reader in the loop. I want the reader to empathize with the protagonist's frustration with being constantly manipulated by others. Otherwise his actions may seem violently psychotic or petulant.
The imaginative part of Fantasy largely seems to be in world building, not necessarily in literary devices where the author pushes the boundaries of how the story is written to create a memorable reading experience.
Does an Epic Fantasy need to stick to a more predictable narrative structure because its length simply makes it too hard for the author to mess with the readers perception of what is happening in the story?
Annette wrote: "You need an editor to answer this question because they can tell you what works for your particular moment. Also, don't force elements into a story to have that shocking moment. It won't be a shock..."A good editor would help, but before I start paying out the nose for a pro, I want to figure out if the entire thing is too complicated. The downside to having written something so long is that editors often charge by the word. With as long as this is, that wouldn't be pocket money.
I had a friend read it and he seems to have missed a lot of details, not just the small nuances. He liked the general plot, but some of it went over his head. I've tried to find Betas here, but most balk at the idea of a 250K Epic, or are just flakes.
The real question you should ask yourself is: What kind of audience am I trying to attract for the book.If you are just writing for you or people who enjoy the same type of reading as you. Then there is nothing stopping you from arranging the narrative in whatever order you want with as many layers on layers on layers that you want. Because you are essentially writing what you enjoy and you know this is something your specific audience will enjoy.
But if you are wanting to reach an audience outside of that niche then you have to simplify your ideas. That is why most fantasy books follow the same basic structure because that is commonly accepted structure that anyone can follow. I also agree with Aaron that unless your book is supposed to be a mystery you have to tread carefully about your bowling pin moments.
Mod
Ben wrote: "The real question you should ask yourself is: What kind of audience am I trying to attract for the book.If you are just writing for you or people who enjoy the same type of reading as you. Then t..."
This may sound strange, but I can really only judge what I like since I don't really know a lot of heavy readers, or readers that share my tastes.
That's sort of why I'm asking here. I don't really know what "Joe Average" reader looks for in an Epic Fantasy.
Dakota wrote: "Hey! I don't mind reading it! I enjoy reading epic fantasy and long books aren't a problem. Are you willing to swap by any chance?"I might be willing to consider that. How long is the manuscript you are working on? What sort of genre\story is it?
Epic fantasy doesn't have to be and shouldn't be linear. There's nothing wrong with venturing off on those cool, interesting subplots. What you have to avoid is meandering. Meaning, do not give the impression that the story has lost its way. When characters don't know what they want to do or where to go next, that's when the readers tune out. They do not, however, tune out, because something interesting happens along the way and the characters end up taking a side road on the way to completing their quest. Take for example, The Lord of the Rings. It's full of side quests, but not once do we ever get the sense that Frodo and company don't know what their objective is or where they have to go to destroy the One Ring.
Kevis wrote: "Epic fantasy doesn't have to be and shouldn't be linear. There's nothing wrong with venturing off on those cool, interesting subplots. What you have to avoid is meandering. Meaning, do not give the..."Actually, as the sort of the progenitor of the modern Fantasy genre, I see the sort of stayed way of telling a story as coming from LoTR. There are side quests but there is little in ways of intrigue, no paradigm shifts, easily identified good guys and bad guys, and not a lot of surprises.
I'm not really talking about side quests. I'm talking about changing the reader's perception of everything they read up to that point, or having them draw their own conclusions based on actions or conversations from, sometimes, hundreds of pages ago.
Mod
Here is an example of what I'm talking about:A character is told that because of what he is, at his death, his body will violently explode (sounds dumb out of context, but just roll with it for a second.) This is reaffirmed later when the character learns about an ancestor that nearly destroyed his fortress when he mysteriously died. This is something the character isn't proud of and keeps it under wraps. Hundreds of pages later he is poisoned and while his assassin is gloating the sentence is suddenly interrupted. I don't directly tell the reader what happened. For dramatic effect I leave it to the reader to figure out what just happened.
Is that too obtuse? Do I need to spell things like that out?
Similarly a character is seduced by a woman and later finds out she went through great lengths to drug him so she could seduce him against his wishes. He pieces it together with little pieces of evidence, but neither through the narrative or dialogue does anyone say "You did this and this to me." When he confronts her about it he just threatens to kill her and calls her something unflattering. He doesn't explicitly call her out on what she did. Its a sort of "You know I know what you did."
Is that too obtuse?
Jeff wrote: "Here is an example of what I'm talking about:A character is told that because of what he is, at his death, his body will violently explode (sounds dumb out of context, but just roll with it for a ..."
I think these things need to be considered in context. Someone here has offered you a beta-swap - I'd very seriously consider that.
Bree wrote: "Jeff wrote: "Here is an example of what I'm talking about:A character is told that because of what he is, at his death, his body will violently explode (sounds dumb out of context, but just roll w..."
We are setting it up.
Actually most fantasy readers - myself included - can remember these things. I just finished Mistborn, Well of Ascension, and Hero of ages. (first 3) of the series EACH book is roughly 700 pages. And there were tid bits (foreshadowing) in book one for book 3 and I remembered it. So this becomes a By the reader moment.
J.M. wrote: "Actually most fantasy readers - myself included - can remember these things. I just finished Mistborn, Well of Ascension, and Hero of ages. (first 3) of the series EACH book is roughly 700 pages. A..."This is good information. I was thinking about reading these anyway, I've heard good things. Now I have the incentive of examining them for style as well.
Plot twists, good guys becoming bad guys, bad guys becoming good guys, sub plots, foreshadowing, suspense and selective omission are all aspects of any great novel. However, they must make sense in the end. Hero #2 shouldn't go off on a side quest to become evil guy #3 if he never again impacts the other heroes. There must be relevance for the event and it must work smoothly with the story. People often wonder about there being too much information to absorb in epic fantasy to get too creative with the flow of the story, but I have never found this to be true. If the novel is well written I can keep track of what's going on. Neither being straight forward nor clever with the plots and character won't help a poorly written work. In my opinion go with what works for the story.
Leer wrote: "Plot twists, good guys becoming bad guys, bad guys becoming good guys, sub plots, foreshadowing, suspense and selective omission are all aspects of any great novel. However, they must make sense in..."Of course, like anything else, it has to make sense. Anything from a character to a plot point has to be woven properly into the fabric of the story or it will stick out.
When I thought back to the fantasy books I read, I couldn't really think of one where there was that sort of intrigue or bread crumb trails. For the most part they were group A defeating group B by overcoming obsticles C,D, and E. There wasn't a lot of mystery or puzzle solving for the reader.
Too much of anything puts off some readers, while others love as many twists and blind alleys as possible. One reader's one star is another's five. Write the book as the book, not aimed at a particular person or reader. When you are happy with it, get betas (pay if necessary), rewrite, then an editor. Boring, but that works.
If you get it readable, the readers will find you. (I pray each night)
The trick is not to end up with the reader saying "eh, what?" instead Wow! :-)
I've read Fantasy from LotRings to Mistborn, and linear or not isn't the difference between the good ones and the rest. Nor is fifty characters vs 3.
That's just my opinion, but I'm willing to be proved wrong :-) Again
As a reader, can you remember little details that happened chapters ago and suddenly have meaning later? If that works in a Mystery novel, can it work in a Fantasy? How much do you like being told "this is happening because of this thing that happened" vs. something happens that hints at something that happened earlier and then it all comes flooding back?
I'm trying to find a way to create an emotionally rewarding reading experience that's more than just a fantastic (in the truest meaning) story. Is this too ambitious?
I appreciate any feedback.