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Advertisement vs spamming
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Interesting question, Nik! I guess it's the nature of advertising that has changed - the documentary The Century of the Self is very illuminating on that point as it shows how Edward Bernays realised how to apply WW1 propaganda to peacetime and rebranded it as PR. Advertising has probably been around since the year dot, shop signs found at Pompeii indicated what they were selling in order to entice people to stop and have a look. It's the way that advertising has changed that bugs me - they pour masses of money into psychological research on our deepest desires and ensnare us into buying things that we don't need. I don't know if it's the same in Israel Nik, but in Britain the volume during ads is always louder than in the programme you're watching. I always mute the sound.The stuff that ends up in my spam folder is the of the ilk "please send $1000 to help my uncle who is the former president of Nigeria and we'll pay you back $2000" or "click this link to claim your £100 Marks & Spencer voucher". These are scams designed to empty your bank account by fraudsters. But advertising is by 'respectable' businesses, even though that is designed also to empty your bank account, by buying stuff that you don't really need. Therein lies the difference, I guess.
I don't want to blame advertisers if I buy junk I don't need but I find the way they go about things to be cheap and dishonest. It may be the nature of the beast but I find that the older I get the more I find ways around it. Even though I can buy new I go out of my way to buy used and second hand. I buy from local merchants instead of chain conglomerates and I unsubscribe from any mailing list that doesn't serve a sustainable need. It's all so crazy.
Jen wrote: "volume during ads is always louder than in the programme you're watching..."Exactly the same here!
Maybe the difference originates from how the sharks want this biz. If I, as an author, will send you an email about my book - then it's spam and I'm subject to fines in some jurisdiction and to be ever shamed and despised. But what a miracle, if I pay some advertiser, carrier, site or platform to announce my book - it's a different story altogether - it'll be probably much more annoying, but then I could proudly pimp my stuff into peoples' faces -:) In a sense, it looks like to get legit, you need to pay 'protection'
Tara wrote: "It's all so crazy..."Totally. Yet, the scammers do it, because they know they'll avoid any fine, advertisers do it, because they decide what's legit, most low-key are probably those barred by anti-spamming laws and suffer the most. Maybe I'm exaggerating, but sounds a little absurd -:)
Nik, I think the difference is that readers voluntarily sign up for those emails from book platforms. They agree to get the emails about books and genres they are interested in whereas if they were subjected to authors directly they would receive hundreds and hundreds of emails a day. I guess it is just good business. You're not really paying for protection but for access to readers' inboxes. Those companies had to spend a lot of money and time building those databases so they want to be compensated for it. What bugs me is when they charge hundreds of dollars for it.
I think it should be illegal for businesses to sell their mailing lists. I very rarely sign up to a corporate or retail mailing list. For one thing they slam you mercilessly with junk and for another there is not enough real advantage once you really examine the overblown sales, deals, etc.
Tara wrote: "I don't want to blame advertisers if I buy junk I don't need but I find the way they go about things to be cheap and dishonest."Fair point Tara; I also find as my years have progressed that I'm more immune to advertising. The problem is that when I was younger I was hooked into some ads and I guess young people today are too. Maybe we crave novelty more when we're young? But that's when many have lower incomes - personal debt, as you all may know, is what I'm crusading about and that's when you get in a cycle of wanting what others have, keeping up with the Joneses and all that, and spending more than you earn. It's fine to buy stuff you don't need if you can afford it, but I think that a lot of people can't.
Nik wrote: "In a sense, it looks like to get legit, you need to pay 'protection'"
It's just like banks creating money that they lend you by tapping numbers into a screen; if you understand fractional reserve banking they don't have the physical cash that they lend you. If you or I created a money-creating scheme like that, we'd end up in jail - but it's ok for banks to do it.
Another point on advertising - everyone wants a Nespresso machine these days, but I read that to buy the equivalent of Nespresso coffee that would fill a £6 jar of instant coffee, you would spend £80 (that's US$106). I'll have instant, please.
Tara wrote: "I think it should be illegal for businesses to sell their mailing lists. I very rarely sign up to a corporate or retail mailing list. For one thing they slam you mercilessly with junk and for anoth..."Definitely! That is so wrong! I'm happy to get emails from sites that I've signed up for their updates, but not when they're unsolicited.
I think EU law has changed on this point where you might have unwittingly agreed - many company websites used to have a checked box saying that you agree to emails from 3rd parties and hoping that you didn't notice it and uncheck it, but the law here is that you now have to opt in by checking an unchecked box.
JenThat is a very sound point you make about how advertisers target young people. Now I'm comparing how I feel now with how I responded to ads when I was younger. Huge difference...very good points. I actually see a big difference in how much I longed for cool clothes and other commodities when I was a teenager compared to my teenaged nieces today. Although they spend lots of time online on their iphones they barely watch television and almost no cable television at all. They don't read magazines, we only give them books and they don't have much interest in shopping malls. Because they aren't bombarded by ads they very rarely show an interest in commercial goods. People are shocked at the fact that we have to beg them to give us an idea of what to give them for their birthdays. They just don't care. Advertisers pay billions to make sure that people don't end up like my nieces.
I think both are an issue these days because we all spend a considerable amount of time in front of one screen or the other.Growing up, we only had access to TV over the weekends and in the evenings. With bedtime at 9pm, that kinda limits how much the advertisers can sink their hooks into us. Even on the weekends, with the amount of chores you have lined up, we only ever bothered with a couple of programmes.
So maybe these issues are only now are issue because our lifestyles have changed???
I recently found out that there's a horse riding school less than 30 mins walk from where I live in London. I took the lil human to have a look around with a view to signing her up when she's older.
One of the moms I met there said that her daughter not only takes lessons there but goes there first thing in the morning to help clean about the stalls. I can imagine that when said daughter gets home, she simply wants to eat and sleep and would spend less time in front of a TV/computer screen, so the advertisers can't get a hold of her.
What do you guys think?
I just had this conversation with my husband lol. Segilola I think you've highlighted something important - the amount of power we give media over our children's schedules. My nieces have so much going on they don't have time to lounge in front of the television night and day. Between school, church, violin, piano, tennis, cheerleading, volleyball, track, theater and pageants their time is occupied. When they have down time they read, write, design, sketch, paint, text and go to the movies with friends. There's literally no time for media to tell them they're not pretty enough, thin enough, cool enough or popular enough without buying their way to happiness.
Tara wrote: "Although they spend lots of time online on their iphones they barely watch television and almost no cable television at all."Ah, but in my book research I came across an advertising industry website that said that many companies were going to reduce their television budgets and spend more on phone and internet ads. We can't win, can we?! Another factor in their thinking is that as you can now record programmes and watch them later, people often fast-forward the ads.
Segilola, that is great if your daughter becomes interested in riding, I loved it as a child. It took me years to forgive my parents for not letting me keep a pony in our garden, even though it would make the lawn mower redundant. :) It's also encouraging Tara that your nieces have active and full lives and like you say, will undoubtedly have a more positive image of themselves. Having read your book, I see their aunt's suggestions at work here! I wish you had been around when I was a kid, I was never 'enough' on many levels and it took me years to get over it.
I can't watch TV at all because of the ads (like Jen said, the commercials are louder than the show). I watch DVDs or Netflix instead.I am trying to be more open-minded about Facebook ads (for books) because I have discovered a few indie authors who are selling well and they credit the targeted Facebook ads. I am not sure I have bought anything from a sponsored Facebook link before, however I must admit that their targeted marketing is quite good at times.
Tara wrote: "I just had this conversation with my husband lol. Segilola I think you've highlighted something important - the amount of power we give media over our children's schedules. My nieces have so much g..."My own impression, unfortunately, you describe an exception (very good for your nieces) rather than rule. Many kids from as young as 9-10 years old and older just spend much of their time on cell phones and computers and to a somewhat lesser degree - watching TV. My friends from high-tech though tell me that functionally there would be no difference between TV, comp and cell in a forseeable future
*does happy dance*You know what? This aunty does a reality check everyday to make sure she's being her best, authentic self. Otherwise those media themes bleed into your life and challenge what's real and true and I just don't have time for that, you know? Luckily for us it's never too late to love outselves and grow :)
Jen wrote: "Tara wrote: "Although they spend lots of time online on their iphones they barely watch television and almost no cable television at all."Ah, but in my book research I came across an advertising ..."
That's the plan Jen. I find large animals super intimidating. I put it down to not being around them growing up. Now I want my little human to be comfortable around large animals even if I have to swallow my liver. I kept wondering if the flimsy door could hold the horse back if it got upset.
Legally, spam is unasked commercial communication by electronic means including but not limited to email, private messages, forums or areas of forums not for that purpose, comments/posts on personal pages/content of others (meaning that posting out to everyone or out to followers/friends on Facebook is not spam but posting your ad on someone's individual Facebook page/profile/timeline is spam).Advertisements arranged for with website owners (a common method to fund free-to-use sites) are not spam but just part of the content website owners chose to offer visitors/members. The website owners asked the ad to be there so not unsolicited.
Some websites include in their signup agreement that their advertisers can contact you, so by signing up for the website you are signing up for the third party emails from advertisers.
Tara wrote: "I think it should be illegal for businesses to sell their mailing lists. I very rarely sign up to a corporate or retail mailing list. For one thing they slam you mercilessly with junk and for anoth..."
It is illegal in the U.S. to harvest emails for purposes other than what the addressee subscribed to. In fact, it's not only illegal but an "aggravated violation" with additional penalties than other activities prohibited by CAN/SPAM laws. (I mention U.S. laws because that's what I am familiar with and what everyone using goodreads is subject to on this U.S. site; I believe the EU has been trying to develop some consumer directives as well but each nation still would determine own set of consumer directives).
Again, not spam or illegal if recipient asked to receive. Having an email address publicly visible on the Internet is not asking and it's illegal to harvest those. A profile here or post in a group saying contact someone via email or messages to submit review requests or whatever, is asking for that contact so again not spam (mention "why" you are sending in the contact text, that they requested on their profile/post) .
ETA: need to report spam? Just forward the spam email to spam@uce.gov and/or fill out a complaint form at https://www.ftc.gov/complaint . On goodreads you can flag it as spam, ditto for reporting on Amazon, Facebook and Twitter.
For the most likely author email/messaging activity, the big hurdle is just making sure it was asked for contact and honoring opt-out requests. You're not likely, for example, to disguise yourself as not being the author or that the email is about anything other than your book. Those three things (who email is from, that you asked for such contact by subscribing-to-whatever/wherever-they-asked-for, and how they can opt out of future emails/contact) under CAN/Spam need to be in your emails and only to persons asking for the contact.
Tara wrote: "*does happy dance*You know what? This aunty does a reality check everyday to make sure she's being her best, authentic self. Otherwise those media themes bleed into your life and challenge what's real and true and I just don't have time for that, you know? Luckily for us it's never too late to love outselves and grow :)"
Yay!! That's the spirit, what an excellent approach to life!
Segilola wrote: "That's the plan Jen. I find large animals super intimidating. I put it down to not being around them growing up. Now I want my little human to be comfortable around large animals even if I have to swallow my liver. I kept wondering if the flimsy door could hold the horse back if it got upset."I get where you're coming from, I was scared of dogs when I was a kid. Horses are like people in some ways; some are naturally very placid, others are excitable and learning horsemanship teaches you how to approach the more challenging ones. It's a bit like life's lessons with dealing with people! Overall I've found that horses are just such sweet animals, they're highly intelligent and they give so much, and they'll adore you if you've got some carrots or apples in your pocket.
interesting . . . what I learn from visiting is that they've got eyes like goats, just slightly bigger.back to the subject, I think moving forward, advertisers would need to be smarter. I have adblockers on one of my browser and as my TV is connected to youtube, not regular TV, my little one is yet to be subjected to ads. we don't have regular TV. (The fact that I don't want to pay TV license for never watching channel 1 - 5 has nothing to do with it)
Thanks for an elaborate explanation, Debbie. I personally would prefer some barriers to incessant ads too, instead of people avoiding switching on their TVs and gadgets-:)
I don't think people avoid switching on their TVs for the sake of ads Nik. I think our lifestyle and technology has changed a lot.A few years ago, before I had my little human. I was always travelling for work. I might come home on a Fri night and I'm off on Sun afternoon. I was paying for cable TV that no one ever watched as well as the darn TV license. Whenever I had a moment, I watched the few programmes I was interested in online via catch up TV. Because of that, I cancelled my cable TV subscription and TV license.
Regular TV is of no use to me right now when I can watch things on demand. Even news channels are online. My little human has never watched regular TV but no one can tell because my TV is connected to YouTube and all the baby channels (including foreign ones) are at my fingertips.
If it weren't for my husband we wouldn't even own a television.
Tara wrote: "If it weren't for my husband we wouldn't even own a television."True that! Men and their toys, right?
When I signed up to a pay TV service, the promise was, no ads. Then they started at the beginning or end of the program, and now with some of them they are just like the commercial "free to view" TV. There is no limit to how promises can be broken for a few extra dollars.
CourtneyExactly lol. It's like those commercial free radio stations that take a break from the music every 30 minutes to give you a 5 minute pitch about how commercial free they are so you'll donate.
Commercials are probably not a bad thing - how would you know about something, if not for commercials? Word of mouth is too slow for a business to survive or an author to enjoy -:)The problem is that the seduction commercial onslaught is way beyond a good measure and sometimes manufacturers allocate much more funds into 'branding' than into a quality or anything else concerning the product.
I don't see Mercedes or BMW doing nearly as much promos as hyundai or renault or whatever -:). You can argue that they turn to elite narrower market and that's true, but people still come to them for quality and prestige.
Among aircons, for example, from what I've noticed the least reliable one is most heavily promoted on the TV -:)
I don't know, Nik. Hyundai ads might be more in your face because of market share but Mercedes Benz might have an advertising budget that is triple. Down and mid market brands pay heavily for tv and radio ads while upmarket and top tier brands use print ads and sponsorships to advertise to their clientele. Hyundai's cable ad is no less effective or advantageous than Jaguar sponsoring a polo match for a royal charity. Jaguar will pay more per point of exposure by far. Luckily for Jaguar their price points are not tied to value - they are tied to perceived value. So they can pay $700,000 for a full page ad in Town & Country magazine because they can charge what they want for the car.
Yeah, I don't know their ad budgets either and comment on what catches my eye. I should probably look for Town & Country copy though -:)Arguably, participating in Formula One in a way can be viewed as a one huge ad budget. In the years of recent recession many manufacturers pulled out of the sport.. with Mercedes returning.
You will need a bank loan to look at that magazine lol. Lovely toys for the wealthy. I once remember an ad for $300 cashmere sweaters for babies lol.
'Town & Country' sounds so peaceful -:), but 300 bucks for a baby sweater? It should probably be of an art level to hang on the wall rather than play outdoors in autumn rainy mud
It should come with a baby.
Ads need to stay with the times. I love YouTube for that. If it's engaging I watch it, if it's not I skip. Like with all things, no one wants to feel forced
Tara wrote: "You will need a bank loan to look at that magazine lol. Lovely toys for the wealthy. I once remember an ad for $300 cashmere sweaters for babies lol."Some people have more money than sense... I haven't spent that much on clothes in 3 years.
Tara wrote: "If it weren't for my husband we wouldn't even own a television."
Haha! Same here.
I asked my husband if we could sell everything we own, live in one of those miniature houses and grow our own veggies. He looked so stunned I burst out laughing and scared the puppy. Maybe I shouldn't have asked him during play-offs lol.
Tara wrote: "I asked my husband if we could sell everything we own, live in one of those miniature houses and grow our own veggies. He looked so stunned I burst out laughing and scared the puppy. Maybe I should..."Sounds perfect to me, but I think I'd be quickly divorced. :)
Tim wrote: "I have to disagree, Nik. ..."No problem at all -:)
Spam is blocked pretty effectively, while ads jump at me at every millimeter of cyberspace. Maybe it's time indeed I start using an adblocker
Not all advertisements are considered spamming but all spamming is considered poor advertising. If you want to advertise you have to be subtle about it, is such a thing possible in this day and age? Ehh yes if you do it right and are classy and clever about it. No one wants to spam and no one want's to come off like an advertising douche but sometimes we are simply unaware of how we come across to our viewers. When your making your own ad remember this, if you are second guessing it, feel it comes off spammy or won't make an impact then don't run it because it's likely spamming and you'll be no better than those people you despise.Look up big name companies ads on Facebook, Twitter or other social media, by definition they are spamming but only because they are sending the ad out to millions of people but the difference between them and people is they are a corporation and they have a professional who made the ad. See what makes the ad popular, why it gets so many retweets and likes. WHat language, words, hashtags or principles the ads are using to engage and get people's attention. If you can take even the simplest action out of their ad and add it to yours it may make the difference between reaching an audience and getting written off and classified as a spammer.
JustinExcellent connection between the topic and what we hope to achieve when we market or promote our books. Completely agree :-)
If you ask me - I find tv commercials more annoying than spam arriving to my cell phone, since I can't skip the former, while can easily ignore the latter. Why if you pay, it becomes tolerable to be annoying? What do you think?
I skip a lot of TV ads by recording the programs and fast forwarding while viewing. Can't always do it, but . . .
I do the same thing, Ian. I wouldn't watch TV at all if I couldn't fast forward through the commercials. Every now and then, I see a commercial that interests me flash by - for a new product or movie coming out - and I will watch to see what's new in the world. But mostly, I don't want to see commercials because I already have the things I need, and it's a waste of my time. I'm trying to pare down what I already own to the necessities - don't really want more stuff.
The rare moments I have it on now, it's usually for noise while I'm doing something else, so I'm hearing it, but not seeing it. So my "favorite" commercials are the ones that are just a mess of obnoxious noises or "music" while they never verbally mention the product or company, leaving to wonder "WTF was that?"
The despicable spamming is much easier avoided with all the filters we have in place today. Both ads and spams look like similar animals, but they have different treatment and reputation. Why is that?