Goodreads Authors/Readers discussion
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Where Have All The Readers Gone?

Groups where I see primarily readers interacting include: Scifi and Fantasy Book Club, Teen Critic, Stephen King Fans, (pretty much any group dedicated to a book), Fantasy Book Club, YAaholics Anonymous, and the UK Amazon Kindle Forum. The Fantasy Book Club is particularly stringent in not allowing any talk about writing or promotions of any kind. So it seems to me you just have to look in the genres.

Don't you think readers generally choose to read books they think they might like? Readers aren't passive recipients of free books. They make choices. Just because someone offers a free book to review doesn't mean a reader has to take it.
Going back to your food example, I don't eat veal at all, ever. Even if someone puts a free plate of it in front of me, I'm not going to eat it. As far as books go, my time is worth more to me than whatever the cost of the book is. I'm not going to choose to read something I think I'll hate just because it's a freebie.
"Returning to books, I buy books I think I will probably like and I review them if and when I do. No obligation, no risky choices, nobody feels hurt. The problem IMO is that promotion sites demand so many 4/5* reviews that authors feel they must get them by constant Giveaways and R & R. They then get upset because the readers don't enjoy the books they are given in exchange for an honest opinion rather than actively choosing them from a genre they enjoy. "
This implies that the reason for less than 4 or 5 star reviews is that readers are reading outside "their genres," whatever exactly that means, because the book is free. It's also possible that poor reviews are because the books just aren't that good.

Yes Sarah, as a reader I choose not to read books that I do not find interesting. My time is too limited to waste on books I won't like. I don't sign up for many giveaways either, but if I do it is likely to be for a book I really want to read. I have yet to win one, so most of my reads are bought or (usually unsolicited) gifts. I am not disappointed all that often but if I were I might write a bad review or I might just say "oh poo" or "fiddledy dee" ;) If a book is truly awful I am not going to waste more time on it. If I genuinely found one that was totally unedited, I probably would say so but in all honesty I don't go looking for mistakes first. I am alarmed occasionally to read reviews that claim a book is full of mistakes and typos when it patently isn't. If I read that book and find no mistakes I do wonder why it got the bad review. In that case it may have been edited after the review of course...

It would seem to me to be a way to bring authors and readers together for a common cause where authors open their minds up to possible changes, and readers know that they are paving the way to improved literature in their favourite genre.
But then I am one of those who still believes in Father Christmas ... :)

If my wife had not started reading romances, I might never have read any, and I might never have found some wonderful books by some wonderful authors, Jayne Ann Krentz and Pamela Morisi to name a couple.

If a reader chooses to further engage with a book beyond reading it, by reviewing or liking it, then that is a complete bonus (even if the review is negative). When I first started reading novels, I never thought of reviewing it, but would look simply to start reading the next one. I do review now, but only if I choose to engage further with the book after its last page by putting my thoughts together on what my impressions are.
And I say all thsi as a writer as well as a reader. Writers have to back off and stop making demands on readers. If a reader likes your work, they may opt to enagage with it further, but that is absolutely their own choice. They MAY buy your next one. They MAY seek you out via social media or forums like Goodreads and converse with you about your book. But not at your prompting only theirs.

Anyone know of any other GR-like sites? Ones that still have readers?"
Booklikes has a lot of readers. I get more solid recommendations there than anywhere else.

To find out more, you can check this group.
https://www.goodreads.com/group/show/...

If a re..."
Yes! :) As a reader I am no way accountable for what I think of any book. I don't have to engage, rate, review and I certainly have no obligation either to fan the author or to act as a gatekeeper for other readers. My choices in reading are mine, my criteria for rating (if I choose to) are mine alone. My taste in books, writing style and tolerance for errors is individual and unique. As a reader I want to be engaged and delighted by stories and beautiful language. Other readers' views, tastes and reviews may or may not play a part in my choices but they are to be respected for their individual tastes too. Nobody, reader, writer or reviewer, should attack those choices because they happen to disagree. (Whether those choices lead to 1* 5* or any shade between.) Reading is personal.

I am not saying readers should not explore new genres, I just question the wisdom of reading something you probably won't enjoy with a view to reviewing it. (Unless of course it is your job to do so in which case your typical criteria for excellence will be vastly different from someone reading purely for the fun of it.)
If I was a habitual reader of sweet Christian romances (which I am not although I have read a couple) I probably would steer clear of the Marquis de Sade for instance, I might not enjoy erotica or lgbt fantasy. That does not mean other people might not enjoy it and have totally different views as readers. We should respect those views.
When I was a child I read voraciously, and I read anything I could lay my hands on. Now I am older and my vision is compromised I choose more carefully. I do have catholic taste and I am not afraid to try the new but if I engage with the book afterwards it is more likely to be because I enjoyed it. Tempus fugit!

I don't seek out things with the intent of disliking them either, but it seems kind of paternalistic to me to say to readers, "Don't read that - you know you don't like that kind of thing." We're adults; I think most of us can make those choices.
If anything, I think it's better to read widely, for many reasons. It's better for indie writers, that's for sure. If no one wants to try the unknown and untested, then they aren't going to try self-published authors.
I'm also not sure why someone reading for fun necessarily would have lesser criteria for what they read. That could be the case, but it certainly doesn't have to be. I guard my leisure time jealously. If no one is paying me to read it, it really should be good!

All I am saying is that I do question the received wisdom that we should read what is offered freely for no reason but to write down our own feelings about it. I will read almost anything with an open mind (even sweet Christian romances). :) As readers we expand our experiences that way and as writers we might well learn something about the craft.
I think people should read absolutely anything they want to for any reason they like, but in my case I don't read to review, I read to enjoy. If I want to review afterwards that is a different thing. I am more likely to review books I have an investment in though. If I bought a book and loved it, or was wildly disappointed, I might review but my review should not be considered any more important than it is - a personal reaction to something that moved me in some way or other.
The author may or may not like the review, but should respect it as a personal opinion. The element of careful choice may or may not improve that review. It might be that a reader is less generous to an author in a genre they read widely. They might be more disposed to enjoying the book. I suppose it depends on the reader.
On the other hand if a reader disapproves of a genre, or personally dislikes its author, the book will start with two strikes against it. Reviews always have a personal element to them and even technical reviews depend on the era, nationality, age and education of the reader.

I guess that is where I am confused. I wasn't aware of any such received wisdom.
From what I have noticed, what you call the culture of "read & review" is more likely to result in inflated ratings, particularly in review swap situations.
"I think people should read absolutely anything they want to for any reason they like, but in my case I don't read to review, I read to enjoy. If I want to review afterwards that is a different thing."
Of course there is nothing wrong with that. I do that too, but I have also found that reading with a thought that I may review later has made me a more critical reader. I don't mean critical as in nasty or disparaging, but in the sense of being more aware of what I'm reading and how it's put together.
With some books this doesn't matter much, but in other cases it has made me a better reader with books that really require the reader to be aware and involved. That is actually one of the things I love about Goodreads. I have read several books over the past couple of years that I probably would not have known of or taken on without some of the people I've met here and the discussions we've had. I think I've gotten much more out of those books than I would have if I had been reading them passively.
In those situations, the review ends up not being anything like a product review. It's not intended to persuade someone to buy or not to buy something. When I write those, it's more to challenge myself to try to articulate what I am thinking about a book. I write it for me really, and for anyone else who wants to talk about it. There are a lot of people who write those kinds of reviews. Some of them are really talented writers, even if not "authors." (Unfortunately there were many more who left after the review censorship stuff a few months ago).

If a re..."
I have nothing to add to this but a round of applause.

I think what I really object to in what you've been saying, although you may not at all intend this, is that it becomes a variant of the Reviewer's Paradox we see over and over again on threads here and in the feedback forums.
Here is what readers are told, again and again:
- It's not fair to write a review without reading (and finishing) the book.
- Why would anyone read a book they don't like? If you don't like a book/author/genre/etc., you shouldn't read it. If you stop enjoying it, you should stop reading it.
- Therefore, since you would never finish a book you don't like, there is no justification for a negative review.

I am sure you are right there too. Maybe I am only a cock-eyed optimist (as the old song says) but I do wish reviews were entirely organic. If someone reads a book, loves it (or hates it) and feels moved to write about it without having been asked, solicited or entreated to do so, that review is a bit special. One reason R & R gets my hackles up is that promotion sites won't touch a book without reviews and readers seem (to me) to be fed up with being asked to review and then having authors decry the review if if doesn't help with the numbers game Bookbubs etc etc are playing.
You write your review for you and that is how it should be. I too have read several books here that I would not have even heard of without Goodreads. Like you, I found these books through interaction on groups like this.
A constructive but critical review is often going to open the author's eyes to what could be done differently too. It can be helpful and positive but it is still only one person's individual opinion. If readers are frightened to express genuine opinions that is not a good thing.

I agree that it would be nice if reviews weren't as connected to all of the commercial stuff. I feel like there are plenty of Amazon reviews for that. I sympathize with authors trying to get their books noticed and having to play the ratings game to get on sites like BookBub. Unfortunately, the result has been ratings and reviews that don't mean much, a lot of author/reader animosity, and debacles like the Goodreads review/shelf deletions in September.



I ask for recommendations in a certain genre. One author recommends her own book. I check the sample on Amazon, read the first few pages and tell her that the book has been published prematurely and I'm not interested, since my standards are not met.
So she PM's me, tells me nobody has been honest with her about her book, and she offers me a free copy of her book if I can give her feedback.
*sigh*
I told her I couldn't spare the time and that she'd need to find a critique circle or a writer's group and get opinions before she published.

There would still be so many books in the world that you'd never be able to read them all, even if you have more than one lifetime.


I ask for recommendations in a certain genre. One author recommends her own book. I check the sample on Amazon, read the first few pages and tell her tha..."
Ha! But I understand why she would ask you. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. There may be a dozen people here whose opinion I would dearly love to have about one of my books, and you are one of those people. And I would not be as interested in whether or not you liked or disliked the book, as I would in your observations.

Morbid curiosity is a dangerous thing when mixed with explosive hype.

There would still be so many books in the world that you'd never be abl..."
So true Martyn! But, let's say all of us were having this same conversation after the first hundred thousand books were written in the world and authors went back to their day jobs or something else? I wonder what would happen?

There would be no new books....although I agree there would still be more books than a person could read in one lifetime.
To be fair authors are often given lousy advice about promoting. I got into an argument with another author who reckoned it was good to mention ones books at EVERY opportunity. I disagreed. Sometimes it isn't appropriate, or polite and yes it can be annoying.
Having groups were promotion is limited to specific threads, or even not at all is good. Readers who don't like the promotion can avoid the author threads. There will always be more readers than authors. Although most authors are also readers, of course.

:) Look at the reviews for Fifty Shades of Grey. There are some really gushing reviews and some very informative negative reviews. Not everyone likes the same things, sees the same things in a book or believes the same things are important.

Should be a case of
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clbqK...
Rather than:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAzES...

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Stan, but what puzzled me was that she tried to get me to beta-read her book and that she didn't have anyone beta-read/edit the book prior to publication.
I get irritated when authors presume to use (paying) customers as beta-readers. If your work isn't good enough to be published, you should either use a critique circle or writing group to improve your skill or just post your stories on a blog or website instead of disrespecting the profession and trying to sell your writing in a form that needs to conform to certain quality standards.

Anyone know of any other GR-like sites? Ones that still have readers?"
Booklikes has many similarities to Goodreads, but is set up differently. A lot of Goodreaders opene..."
I hadn't realized there was a Goodreads Italia group. One of my children's books is available in Italian (Storia di un leone comune) but scarcely anyone has read it. Is there an appropriate way of mentioning it in the group?

Should be a case of
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clbqK...
Rather than:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAzES..."
L M A O


Allegedly strong reactions are good. Either positove or negative.


There is an author's section of the group:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/group...
The rules for posting to promote your own work are here:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

No offense, but this is exactly it
."
I did write a very long and nasty response to this... but decided the better of it. I do not feel the need to justify myself to you. I was conversing with others. If anyone was offended by my post, then I apologize. If you do not understand my motives for the post, then so be it. Please take note, the moment you identified yourself as an author, you broke the code that you were placing on this thread of "readers only".
To S.... that is what i have always done, basically it has been book of the month mail clubs,such as Double Day, and Barnes and Noble. I seriously think I have only bought three books from Amazon, ever. I have never ever paid attention to whether a book was self published or not. The three books I bought from Amazon were in fact self pubs-- and I didnt even realize that until I used Createspace myself. The books I received were well written, had no spelling or grammar errors, and the stories were interesting and fun. I never even looked at reviews of books because I always felt that we all like different things, so how could anyone else judge what I would like?

It's all about reading, with no promotional sections.

No offense, but this is exactly it
."
I did write a very long and nasty response to this... but decided the better of it. I do not feel the need to justify myself to you. I..."
I dont know..I browsed the ranking for example but only one or two stories that caught my eyes..but then if I go to forum and places where new author tried to pitch their stories there were lots of really eccentric, sometimes even real story that touched the heart that made me wonder why were they not up there..now English is not my first language so I normally just overlook the finer detail unless if its really bad, but as a reader its the story thats really im after..but that cud be just me..i guess just like a gem hunter or antic trader..youll hv to go out of your way to find that thrill from ur reading..?? idk..

I have learned that ranking means nothing. I found better stories for free on smashwords than what I paid for in hardcovers. And I am one of those people where I refuse to keep reading a book that does not interest me. People will tell me, "Just read the whole thing, it gets better". Nope, not for me. Im the same way with movies, if im not interested in the first 15 min, I'm not watching it

I have learned that ranking means nothing. I found better stories for free on smashwords than what I paid for in hardcovers. And I am one of those people where I refuse to..."
Oh that Tower of Tears of yours sound interesting!

I get irritated when authors presume to use (paying) customers as beta-readers. If your work isn't good enough to be published, you should either use a critique circle or writing group to improve your skill or just post your stories on a blog or website instead of disrespecting the profession and trying to sell your writing in a form that needs to conform to certain quality standards. ..."
The key word here is profession. Many Sp authors enter the fray without having any idea of what it takes to be a professional writer. Apart from industry standards of writing, cover design and editing, there is the whole question of relationships, with readers, other writers and any industry professionals. In the old pre-SP days, these would have been the people who got into slanging matches with agents or editors when they rejected their manusacripts.Ask yourself this authors, if an agent or publiusher saw how you reacted to a bad review by getting into a spat with the reviewer, do you think they'd regard you as a reasonable person they could do buisness with?
Even independent authors have to behave in a professional manner.

I belong to several non-author groups. Many don't allow any promotion at all or just one particular place. Authors who sneak in promo are either warned not to or removed.

The Source, in my limited knowledge, is as close as there is to your query:
https://www.goodreads.com/group/show/...
[I believe in Father Christmas, too. Lack of evidence notwithstanding . . .]

Most authors still have their day jobs. :-)

Roberta
Very much appreciated - many thanks. I have joined and now just have to get my act together to go in there and do something about it.

I think a lot of this is the fault of the nature of the internet. It should be the same as talking to people in public--don't be an ass hat. I just don't get all the author plugging of books, to me it seems rude. Would you monopolize the conversation in public the same way? I bet most wouldn't.
I am still foremost on here as a reader. I have no problem turning off the author hat. If I beta read that is one thing, but when I have my book, I don't read it like a writer, I want to relax and just read a good tale---like leave me alone I'm in my own little world right now.
And sometimes for me I'm afraid to respond in a thread as I worry EEK I'm an author too, maybe they won't like me leaving a comment, even though I'd be commenting as a reader. It can be a precarious line to walk.
Sometimes I wonder, are all authors really readers too? You wouldn't know it by some of the things they do. As a reader, there are some books I'm disappointed in or don't like. It is only natural to assume some readers are not going to like what I write and I'll get bad reviews. Well ya, and? I don't understand getting all in a snit over it to the point of confrontation. So I go back to the internet again. I highly doubt an author would lambast a reader if the reader was standing right in front of them. I think the internet has made some people forget their manners all the way around.
Books mentioned in this topic
Amusing Ourselves to Death: Public Discourse in the Age of Show Business (other topics)The Golem and the Jinni (other topics)
The Golem and the Jinni (other topics)
Here are some suggestions for authors new or old.
1) Don't create multiple threads about the same thing in one group. That is super annoying. Create one thread, and create it in the proper place. Take the time to look over the group outline before creating the thread.
2) It's okay to create threads in different groups, but do this gradually, one or two a week, until you have posted in the groups that interest you. It looks a lot better in the digests we get. If you are not really interested in a group, it is probably not a good place to create a thread.
3) Create an author thread in a group that is most like the book you are promoting, and add to that thread once a week. Mention your book or books once a week, but do other things in the thread, such as posting an original snippet, or maybe a poem. Talk about the process of creating a book, talk about the difficulty of finding new books to read, talk about anything other than BUY MY BOOK.
4) Do posts that have absolutely nothing to do with your book. Converse intelligently, mention someone else's book, mention a blog site you've visited, compliment someone on an intelligent post. You don't have to write a lengthy response. Click on reply, say "good point," and post. Tweet, or Like, or Google Plus another author's interview, review, blog post, and then let them know you've done that.