A Man Lay Dead - SPOILER thread

[Judy]

This is our spoiler thread for A Man Lay Dead by Ngaio Marsh.

If you are still reading the book, please be aware that spoilers will be openly discussed here, so you might prefer to stick to the general thread until you have finished.

[Susan]

OK, so seriously - do you think you could actually commit a murder in the way described here? I really liked the book and that didn't spoil my enjoyment of it - but it seemed a little implausible to me...

[Judy]

I really like the book too! I agree sliding down the banisters seems highly unlikely, but maybe no more so than the bizarre murder methods in many of the other Golden Age mysteries I've read!

The authors seemed to enjoy thinking up ever stranger methods - I suppose maybe it makes the murder itself less horrific if we are gasping over the weird and wonderful method used?

[Judy]

I suppose this possibly counts as a spoiler in case he's supposed to be a suspect... but did anyone else like Alleyn's "Watson" in this, the journalist Nigel Bathgate?

After reading some later books, I'd totally forgotten this character, who is replaced by Sgt Fox later on as Alleyn's sidekick. I rather liked Nigel in this and enjoyed the humour he added.

[Susan]

Yes, I liked Nigel Bathgate. Perhaps it proved too difficult to keep having him pop up at the scene of the crime? I can imagine how authors sometimes end up writing themselves into a corner and then have to dig themselves out...

[Sandy]

I have only read one other Ngaio Marsh, Tied Up In Tinsel. I enjoyed it and planned to read the series. Now I'm not so sure. I enjoyed the country house party atmosphere and Inspector Alleyn and his sidekick, but once the Russian sub-plot was introduce all I could think of was Have His Carcase and the Bolsheviks. The murder method was fantastical (as mentioned by others). I suspected the murderer, but only because his alibi seemed made to be broken. From what I remember his motives for murder were just dropped in at the end (though I could have missed hints - I did the audio and often miss bits). How does this compare to later Alleyn books?

[Leslie]

Sandy wrote: "I have only read one other Ngaio Marsh, Tied Up In Tinsel. I enjoyed it and planned to read the series. Now I'm not so sure. I enjoyed the country house party atmosphere and Inspector..."

I think that this is a series that gets better as you go along. At least, I like the ones with both Inspector Fox and Troy better than this first one.

[Susan]

Like so many series, I read the first two or three and never got any further. I certainly liked the ones I have read though and would like to - at some point - read all of the series.

[Judy]

I remember the later books as being better but enjoyed this one a lot. There do seem to be a lot of far- fetched plots involving Russians in GA mysteries!

[Susan]

Well, there were some very extreme political beliefs around between the wars. I can understand why authors would tap into that.

[Judy]

I can understand that too, but I tend to find it a bit of a cheat if half the characters in a book turn out to be involved in a conspiracy, as has happened in some GA stories I've read recently, though thankfully not in this one.

Also sometimes the Russian characters just seem to be so OTT, and must say I find Dr Tokareff a case in point here!

[Judy]

I've just come across a discussion of A Man Lay Dead in an interesting collection of essays about the first books in mystery series. It's called In the Beginning: First Novels in Mystery Series, edited by Mary Jean DeMarr, though each chapter is by a different writer.

Only part of the essay about Marsh's novel is online, at Google Books:
http://bit.ly/2c9elGk

I've just succumbed and ordered a second-hand copy of this to be delivered from the US, as I'd really like to read the other articles too!

[Judy]

In the piece about A Man Lay Dead in the book I've just mentioned, writer MaryKay Mahoney finds the method of murder and the Russian subplot very unbelievable.

But she says it's interesting to see how Alleyn is already much the same as in the later books "except for an element of awkwardness in his mannerisms - perhaps due to shyness at his first appearance in print."

She also thinks that Nigel Bathgate managing to get himself captured by the Russian in Alleyn's flat is "one of the most foolish moves ever committed by a Watson figure"!

The exact details of the plot are already fading in my mind, but I do remember thinking that Nigel walks right into it at this point, even though I like him as a character. I do love the moment where Alleyn turns up to save him, even if it is a bit far-fetched!

[Susan]

Yes, Nigel was rather easily convinced to trot along to the house and give himself up, wasn't he? Mind you, he was new to the whole thing and Alleyn should have warned him - don't do anything other than what I have told you, ignore false men bearing notes, etc etc!

[Judy]

Yes indeed! I do love it when Alleyn arrives down the chimney, but that is also pretty far-fetched!

[Susan]

Hmmm, as someone who remembers having a coal fire, it would be both difficult and messy I would imagine!

[Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂]

I'm glad you guys enjoyed it - I did enjoy the start. I preferred this version of Alleyn to the one in Marsh's later books.

But I found the Russian subplot too silly for words.

I'm going to put that In the Beginning book on one of my to-read lists. :)

[Susan]

I have only read the first two, or three, in this series. It does sound as though Alleyn changes a lot, with some readers preferring the change and others preferring him like this? I am intrigued now and want to read on...

[Lesley]

Every one converges on Fancourt for a weekend country house party - somewhat a risky business in England since they nearly always end in disaster, as did this one.

Light-hearted, easy read murder mystery and Marsh's first foray into the world of mystery/crime writing. The whole feeling was of a writer working out her own style and characters with uncertainty. Alleyn was one minute a solid, young, thoughtful, hardline detective, and next minute a Wimsey 'silly ass' style character. In fact Marsh couldn't make up her mind whether he was a Dectective Inspector, or an Inspector Detective (which doesn't actually exist).

I have read a couple of others Marsh has written, but now I think I would like to read the Alleyn series in order to see how she develops him. Maybe a project for next year.
3 stars from me.

[Susan]

You do wonder how people felt when getting these weekend invitations, don't you, Ella's Gran? Hmmm, nice house, but someone will probably get murdered!

[Judy]

Yes, and there are also the villages where murders keep on happening, such as the one in the Cotswolds where Agatha Raisin lives, or the Midsomer Murders ones! You'd think there would be plenty of empty houses as everyone decided to move somewhere else...

[Susan]

Yes, yet when I get my local crime report from our local police liaison officer, we have a list of stolen bikes, the odd burglary and, on the odd occasion, a mugging. Yet I live on the outskirts of London in a very busy borough. We obviously are not keeping up the standards of those in the rural areas...

Obviously, I am happy I live somewhere with a low crime rate, but it is funny how the person who sends out the bulletin tries to make it more exciting. This month we had a report of people knocking from the gas company, with reminders not to let anyone into our homes and the remark that those mentioned, "might have been on legitimate business." If that isn't a non-story, I'm not sure what is!

[Abigail]

I’m sorry you live in such a boringly safe environment, Susan! {tongue firmly in cheek} Perhaps the ’burbs offer just the right level of anonymity to deter crime—too few people and the annoying ones can never be avoided, they drive you bonkers; too many people and you don’t regard others as fully human. It would seem that villages and cities are more amenable to murder.

[Jill]

Judy wrote: "Yes, and there are also the villages where murders keep on happening, such as the one in the Cotswolds where Agatha Raisin lives, or the Midsomer Murders ones! You'd think there would be plenty of ..."

John Nettles did say in an interview that there was no way he would live any where near Midsomer .

[Everyman]

Ella's Gran wrote: "Every one converges on Fancourt for a weekend country house party - somewhat a risky business in England since they nearly always end in disaster, as did this one.."

If you judged life by murder mysteries, nobody would ever go to a country house weekend!

[Everyman]

Abigail wrote: "I’m sorry you live in such a boringly safe environment, Susan! {tongue firmly in cheek}."

Our little islands haven't been a safe haven the past few weeks. About three weeks ago we had a murder-suicide, and then just last week we had a domestic violence murder. For an island community which usually has about one murder every ten years, if that, it's been an unsettling few weeks.

[Susan]

Yes, violence and murder are far better on paper, or far away, than in our own locality.

My tongue was also firmly in cheek, but I just love the email bulletins I get monthly, from our local police liaison officer. I do believe she has a hankering to be a crime reporter/writer!

[Jan C]

As a former government employee my information was recently hacked (possibly), by the Chinese. So they gave us some free security. I get a monthly report. It makes this town look like it is the center for sexual offenders. I'm sure it isn't really.

And I still get a certain amount of bulletins from my old town. Admittedly, a suburb of Chicago, but it used to be pretty peaceful. There is a big crimewave on the North Shore. People are having their cars stolen out of their driveways. Turns out that a number of them are unlocked and some even have their keys in them. Talk about making it easy for the thieves. Always lock my car ... even here where it seems less likely.

Although I'm wondering if the ones with keys are the ones where you only have to have a key in your pocket. My brother recently visited and he had one of those as a rental. He kept leaving the key in the car.

[Susan]

Jan, I agree, I would never never leave my key in the car - or near the front door, where it can be taken. I had a friend who left her keys and bag on a table right by her front door and someone lifted them via her letterbox and stole her car. I do appreciate the bulletins I get and they do make me more careful, I just find them amusing!

[Jan C]

Back to the book. This was my second read of this book. I still had the wrong person as the killer. And, I think, confusing it with one by Allingham, which was also a house party (probably the first one).

The Russian thing was a distraction. But this was at a period when socialism/communism had a lot of interest. So this may be why we see it pop up in various books.

Back to The Nursing Home Murder for me. Book #3, I think.

[Judy]

I didn't get the right killer either, Jan, and also got distracted by the Russians!

[Susan]

Yes, we have said before that there were a lot of really viable political extremes in the 1930's and so obviously books reflect that. Oddly, although there are often Russians in novels, there is not too much mention of events in Germany that I have read about? I know Nancy Mitford satirised the Blackshirts (and her brother in law, Oswald Mosley) but, generally, it is the Russians that authors seem to concentrate on.

[Jan C]

In The Hollow by Agatha Christie I think there is some mention of Germany. The young people like thetthings that are going on in Germany and Poirot comes down on the other side, noting that he was from a country that had bad experiences with Germany in the past.

[Susan]

Yes, well, he was a Belgium and when we first meet him he is a refugee from the Germans. Quite a relevant storyline in these troubled times!

[Jan C]

I just read a description of The Yellow Bungalow Mystery: An Inspector Anthony Slade Mystery by Leonard Gribble (1933) and it sounds an awful lot like this story - dagger as gift, house party, everyone has an alibi. Only difference seemed to be that it was an Arab dagger.

[Susan]

That's interesting, Jan. I wonder if they slid down the bannisters with said dagger?!

[Judy]

Very interesting! This reminds me of a comment in Marsh's introduction, which I mentioned earlier in the general thread on this book.

She recalls how she thought a murder mystery game where a real corpse is found might be a good idea for a book, and adds: "Luckily for me, as it turned out, I wasn't aware until much later that a French practitioner had been struck with the same notion".

I've been wondering who this 'French practitioner' was - I was guessing possibly a Maigret book, although Simenon was Belgian? Although I don't think house parties are typical territory for Maigret, somehow.

[Judy]

I've done a bit of searching but have had absolutely no luck in finding out what the French book with a similar plot was, so am now giving up this particular bit of detective work :)

[Judy]

What did anyone think of the reconstruction in this, with everyone having to be exactly where they were at the time of the murder? I thought it was quite exciting and helped to build up the tension, but I always find it hard to keep track of where everyone is supposed to be and when!

We tend to take reconstructions for granted now, with all the TV Crimewatch programmes etc, but it might have been quite a new idea at the time.

A reconstruction also takes place in the Nicholas Blake book a few of us have just been reading, A Question of Proof, which was published the year after A Man Lay Dead, but I don't know if anyone else had used this plot element earlier.

[Susan]

I love the way the accused immediately crumbles, or gives themselves away, with - often- little or no proof. I sometimes wish the guilty party would brazen it out...

[Judy]

Carol ♛ Type, Oh Queen! ♛ wrote: "I'm going to put that In the Beginning book on one of my to-read lists. :) ."

My copy has now arrived from the US - it's a former library book but looks almost brand new. Looks ideal for me, since as well as Alleyn it also features Wimsey, Campion, Miss Marple, Nero Wolfe and Nigel Strangeways, among others! I'll let you know what it's like.