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Further to this, there's been big news on the exoplanet front. Astronomers from the European Southern Observatory have confirmed the existence of an "Earth-like" planet around Proxima Centauri, the closest star system to our Sun. And just about everybody is talking about plotting our first interstellar mission there. Lousy copycats! I was talking about this BEFORE It was confirmed! ;)
http://www.popularmechanics.com/space...
If you read my Thursday blog post (Sept 1) you may decide not to go. If my concept of planetary formation is correct, there are no rocky planets around red dwarfs, UNLESS the heat and solar wind of the star has boiled off all the water. Sorry.
As I said in the other thread, that theory is not supported by current research. So,.. sorry about your current theories, but they don't appear to be holding up in the face of actual exoplanet discoveries.
Matthew wrote: "As I said in the other thread, that theory is not supported by current research. So,.. sorry about your current theories, but they don't appear to be holding up in the face of actual exoplanet disc..."As I said in the other response, there is NO compositional data available about planets around red dwarfs, other than star burners where it assumed there are molten silicates on the surface because of the temperature. Of course there is n o evidence in support of my theory - there is no evidence against it either. There is just plain no compositional evidence.
Ian wrote: "Matthew wrote: "As I said in the other thread, that theory is not supported by current research. So,.. sorry about your current theories, but they don't appear to be holding up in the face of actua..."Compositional? No, but the data does suggest the planets are terrestrial in nature. And if there is evidence for or against your theory, then it remains only that, yes? And it's not like there is an absence of evidence. There are mass constraints, orbital parameters, and radial velocity measurements that allow astronomers to make educated guesses about the composition of the planet. Might not be exact, but I prefer to go with that over the theory of someone who is not an exoplanet hunter or planetary scientists - no offense intended.
Matthew, mass, orbital parameters and radial velocity merely tell you where it is, but not what it is. That is a consequence of the Equivalence Principle, in which everything falls at the same rate. There is nothing in the data that suggests terrestrial other than it is the habitable zone. If I am wrong, show me the data, and I will be the first to withdraw.
Ian wrote: "Matthew, mass, orbital parameters and radial velocity merely tell you where it is, but not what it is. That is a consequence of the Equivalence Principle, in which everything falls at the same rate..."They also tell you a great deal about its likely size and composition. And you are capable of researching the relevant data on your own, are you not? Since you made this about your theories, I don't see why I need to demonstrate anything to you.
*frowns in disapproval**separates spacey weirdos**keeps the peace*(Totally kidding. Carry on, gentlemen ^_~)
It's okay, Annie. We're going at this in two threads, and I gave him plenty of "light reading" to keep him occupied.
"Back on your corners!" Yells Ref Ann as she waves her katana on the air. Matthew the Marauder glowers in his corner. Ian the Instigator blows blood out of his nostrils.
Aww, my two boys are fighting...*sighs**bakes cookies**laces them with happiness*
Positive side note: We totally picked your TH-inspired prompt. If ya didn't notice .
*smiles wide*
Annie wrote: "Aww, my two boys are fighting...*sighs**bakes cookies**laces them with happiness*
Positive side note: We totally picked your TH-inspired prompt. If ya didn't notice .
*smiles wide*"
TH? you forgot to append the "C"
I bow out. If Matthew can take any position, such as stating that orbits give composition, and not justify it, I have no other option. Sorry all - ducking another katana blow :-)
@Awesome Alex: TH = Tragically Hip, not Cannabis *smirks*@Sir Ian: You cannot escape my Katana muhahahaaaa!!!
@Mr Matt: Where did you disappear to? I baked cookies! *pouts*
Annie wrote: "@Awesome Alex: TH = Tragically Hip, not Cannabis *smirks*oh, you got that. my impression of you has been altered.
Hahahaha, Awesome Alex! I've never smoked weed or done any drugs period, but...I was a Bio major with a serious love of Pharmacology ^_~
#NerdsRule
Yeah we better arrive at peace at home before we reach exoplanets.Now where those space cookies? -:)
Ian wrote: "I bow out. If Matthew can take any position, such as stating that orbits give composition, and not justify it, I have no other option. Sorry all - ducking another katana blow :-)"Hey! That's an oversimplification of what I said! I said mass and size can be determined based on detection methods, and from this, composition can be inferred (educated guess was the exact words, I think). And I provided the sources in the other thread, thank you very much.
However, to repeat what I said on the other side (verbatim) - Perhaps I've been too harsh. I woke up this morning with a fresh mind and realized, a person is necessarily advertising (a pet peeve of mine) just because they are sharing a theory.
Ian, sorry for busting your balls. You are bringing some interesting flavor to the discussion.
Annie wrote: "@Awesome Alex: TH = Tragically Hip, not Cannabis *smirks*@Sir Ian: You cannot escape my Katana muhahahaaaa!!!
@Mr Matt: Where did you disappear to? I baked cookies! *pouts*"
Cookies??? Num, num, num, num!!!
Oh, and sorry for disappearing. I have this physical weakness where once a day, I need to become unconscious for about eight hours. I know, it sucks, I'm working on it :)
The description I've seen from NASA and ESO is "earth-size" but other places have turned it into "earth-like." Is that different? Seems it would be.Either way, too early for an expedition. There is always a lot of bandwagon effect in early days. Promising data yes. But to draw lines and put stakes in the ground, might be a little early. :-)
@ Annie - head still connected to shoulders tee hee hee.If anyone else is interested, my blog post is:
https://wordpress.com/post/ianmillerb...
Matthew - note that the water world prediction still applies with the standard theory, because it depends on the ice point. Basically, a red dwarf generates a lot less heat at a given point while accreting because it is so much smaller. The rate of accretion I use is observational (on other systems) and the extra mass dependency is Newton' gravitational law.
I assure you as a chemist you cannot know composition from orbital parameters. Spectroscopy is our only hope.
You know, I'm starting to think that us romance writers are simple creatures. Not all advanced like the rest of you buggers, eh?I mean, all we care about is nookie and cookies ^_~
#NerdsAndRomanceRules
Ian wrote: "@ Annie - head still connected to shoulders tee hee hee.If anyone else is interested, my blog post is:
https://wordpress.com/post/ianmillerb...
Matthew - note that the water wo..."
Yes, and spectroscopy is used when the Transit method is employed. But you can constrain possible compositions when assessing a planet's mass, size and orbit, based on what we know of planetary models.
No disrespected intended, but exoplanet hunting goes beyond chemistry.
Matthew wrote: "Ian wrote: "@ Annie - head still connected to shoulders tee hee hee.If anyone else is interested, my blog post is:
https://wordpress.com/post/ianmillerb...
Matthew - note that ..."
Of course there is more to it than chemistry, but that does not mean chemistry is irrelevant. You may be interested to know that every planetary system (i.e. planet and moons) has a composition different from the others. In my opinion, given the fact they all start from a disk that started with gas/dust of essentially the same composition (there is evidence that there may have been more than one supernova involved, which could have meant there was an uneven distribution of short-lived isotopes, such as 26Al) how do you explain that? Now in the case of water, everyone agrees that it come in as ice, and at some temperature slightly closer to the star than the Jupiter core, the ice sublimes as the temperature increases. The smaller the star, the less mass is flowing in to a lower gravitational field strength, which in turn means the ice sublimes closer to the star. According to my estimate, for Proxima b, that point is closer to the star, so there will be lots of water there. The only question is, on any theory, where was the ice point? I don't know - but neither does anyone else. However, I can estimate. Is the estimate right? Wait and see.
As an aside, we don't know whether Proxima b will transit, but the fact that it doesn't seem to have so far is indicative that it won't, so we may need the James Webb telescope to get an IR spectrum.
//Of course there is more to it than chemistry, but that does not mean chemistry is irrelevant. //Didn't say it was irrelevant. I'm saying that its part of a larger field and it should not be the sole basis of making premature conclusions about another planet. Especially when you, paradoxically, keep saying we don't know and don't have enough to go on.
//You may be interested to know that every planetary system (i.e. planet and moons) has a composition different from the others.//
I already know that other planetary systems are different than ours. This is kind of required when you write for an astronomy and science publication. And the likelihood of Proxima b being terrestrial is based on exoplanet research into red dwarf stars, like around Trappist-1, Gliese 581 and several others - not our own.
And as the studies I provided showed, there have been numerous candidates found around red dwarfs in recent years that are believed to be terrestrial, and that red dwarfs have a good chance of producing habitable planets. You're theory notwithstanding, I prefer to go with current research from people in the field.
//I don't know - but neither does anyone else. However, I can estimate. Is the estimate right? Wait and see.//
Of course we don't know. And estimates are what I am basing my argument on. Not mine, but those of scientists who are actually involved in the planet-hunting process. You are not involved and this is your theory. All I've said from beginning is that it doesn't accord with those of people who are (again, no offense) more qualified than you.
I'm really not interested in discussing this any longer, Ian. You are demanding proof of a theory you do not agree with from a person who is merely a messenger. Perhaps if you read the studies I gave you and took up your beliefs with them.
Thanks for enlightening debate, gentlemen
Yes, can we get back to the subject of helping people out with sci-fi, dystopian elements please?
Speaking of which, this just came in over the wire. The EM drive, the impossible propulsion system that just won't seem to die quietly. Space testing to commence soon!http://www.popularmechanics.com/scien...
I'm finding it funny that my current WIP falls in the Sci Fi category, while it's one of those with almost no science elements. A story set in the future, but it centers around POWs kept in a camp about as primitive as you can get. So far, they're just happy when they get fire. :D
J.J. wrote: "I'm finding it funny that my current WIP falls in the Sci Fi category, while it's one of those with almost no science elements. A story set in the future, but it centers around POWs kept in a camp ..."Yep, there are always loopholes. As long as its in the future, or on another planet, people will toss it in with books about space travel, cybernetics, nanotechnology, laser guns, and dozens of other uber-scientific elements!
A popular niche - catapulting someone from the present to the deep past and let him/her struggle for 5-6 books through historical events. The 3 page time travel will probably place the entire 5-6 historically-based books of a series into a sci-fi area, no?
The one I just released falls under the theme of the multiverse, but I've established a theory in the story where the universes all spring into existence at different times, so if I expand it into a series, when they go to these alternate Earths, they're not only dealing with alternate histories, but they're experiencing those alternate histories in a different time. The potential third book would have them show up in the 19th century American West, finding themselves in a "Western" operating as we do today, with the rules and regulations we accept as normal today that didn't exist in the real West, to show how silly they are when placed in a different time. I think I like the idea of a local sheriff pulling over a cowboy and asking for his license to ride, the horse's registration, and insurance, the state/territory telling people "Maintenance on those trails ain't free." Or that owning a horse and buggy isn't a right, but a privilege.
It's possible to have multiple universes that were all born at the same time, but which evolved differently and even experienced time differently. You could argue that each Universe has similar cause and effect relationships, but the flow of time is what is different. Would make a lovely statement on the whole universality vs. variation theme.
One thing about multiple universes where different choices can be made is that because such different choices can be made so long ago, they would not look anything like our current one. If one of your ancestors married someone else in that universe, you would not exist. I made a slight variation on that theme in my Gaius Claudius Scaevola sequence - Athene, in the future, sent a message back in time to change one small decision, thus starting a new time line (a sort of reboot!) where nearly everything was the same because everyone else made the same decisions. But would they, in a reboot? When the time for comparison came, my answer was no. Some did, others did not. What do you think aout a parallel time line as a reboot?
And, theoretically, new ones would be forming all the time, right? I mean, if every quantum state vector produces a different universe, there really would be an infinite number out there, with more happening all the time.
I must confess I am extraordinarily uncomfortable with the idea that if i toss a coin and it comes down heads, I also created an entirely different universe where it came down tails. I really think that is just so bizarre.
Ian wrote: "I must confess I am extraordinarily uncomfortable with the idea that if i toss a coin and it comes down heads, I also created an entirely different universe where it came down tails. I really think..."Then I would avoid tossing a six-sided die ;) There's actually a great episode of this show called Community where an entire episode is based on that.
I have a small jar of dice, including some with dodecahedra! I had better keep them out of play :-)
Matthew wrote: "It's possible to have multiple universes that were all born at the same time, but which evolved differently and even experienced time differently. You could argue that each Universe has similar cau..."That's sort of how every Sci Fi work treats the multiverse. The idea being that if you're creating an alternate Earth story, people want to see how things would be different in our society if one thing was changed. But like Ian said, one change can create a world so different as to be unrecognizable. I wanted to do something different from the norm and that idea removes the notion of seeing our world in those alternatives and the date of the story becomes irrelevant.
I had seen some idea years ago trying to explain where the Big Bang comes from. I think if there was any credibility to the theory I would have seen more than the one mention, but I liked it nonetheless and used it in my story. The idea was that the particle containing all the matter springs into existence. Nothing can just magically appear from nothing, but the theory went that pure, empty space has a certain "texture" to it. It is that texture which creates the Big Bang particle. Since the new universe contaminates the space, the conditions for the creation of another Big Bang particle are lost and you will not see another created within a universe, but because the empty space is so large, a new particle could be created outside the boundaries of an existing universe. It is in this way multiple universes can form. They would sit beside each other the same as the stars and the galaxies do rather than within the same space, but out of phase like most sci-fi portrays. If you could see that multiverse in its entirety, it would look like the bubbles in a bath.
Of course, to make travel possible, I had to create some B.S. cheat to explain why you can travel beyond this universe when you can't travel within it.
Well, you never know. One of these days, a theorist may come along and propose a possible means for "bridging the universes". Of course, the trick is to then pounce on that idea before someone discredits it! ;)
@ J.J. Believe it or not, I have seen such a proposal for "bubble Universes" before. As you say, if it can happen once, why not again?Interestingly, the mass/energy of the Universe may well be precisely zero, so the argument that nothing comes from nothing may not be right, unless you say the Universe is nothing. The reason is that gravitational energy is negative, and it may be that while gravity is weak, if you integrate it over the vastness of the Universe, it may come up equal to the energy/mass of what we see.
Can there be a thread for Fantasy writing?
Ƙανу Jαcкѕση Ƒυℓℓвυѕтєя~Only know you've been high when you're feeling low Only hate the road when you're missing home~ wrote: "Can there be a thread for Fantasy writing?"sure, you can create one and ask away! ;)
Ƙανу Jαcкѕση Ƒυℓℓвυѕтєя~Only know you've been high when you're feeling low Only hate the road when you're missing home~ wrote: "Ok thanks :)"Hey, don't clog up my thread with talk of another thread! Get your own thread you no-good wanting-to-help-with-fantasy-writing person!
I kid, I kid, its fine of course ;) I have what you might call an inappropriate sense of humor, can you tell?
So fire away! If I don't have the answer, I know people who probably do. Let me know what you're working on and we'll see if I can help.