Georgette Heyer Fans discussion
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Your Bottom 5 Georgette Heyer's
So funny. At least 3 of the ones you mentioned, Critterbee, are ones of which I am particularly fond. And I need to read The Reluctant Widow again, as I do not have any feelings either way & it keeps getting listed as both a favorite and a "bottom-dweller" in this discussion. I still remember my mom laughing at night while reading Sylvester, I loved The Masqueraders, and up until this year I disliked A Civil Contract. Since re-reading it with the group, it has become a favorite...at least in my top ten. I think the point of "binge-reading" GH is a good one, if I got my hands on her books, whether borrowing from a friend, buying them with my allowance (which my mom expanded once she started reading GH as well) or borrowing them from the libraries I had available (college & HS--we introduced our librarian to GH & expanded our HS library's collection) but often read a bunch at a time. They are not all equally well-written, yet compared to many other books I was reading as a teen, they were so much better. Now, re-reading them with this group, I am able to give each book due attention & can appreciate (or not) each one on its own merits. I doubt I would ever have re-read Cousin Kate or even A Civil Contract left to my own devices. Cousin Kate was still not her best, a GH romance with the Gothic wedded to it was simply an uncomfortable narrative marriage, but my view on A Civil Contract changed radically and I am so glad I re-read it. I also found the opposing views and lively discussion regarding it very entertaining. We all love GH, we just love different aspects of her.
Those are good points, Kim!I have not read the Masqueraders in a very long time, so perhaps I should re-read it to see if I still feel the same about it.
The diversity of her writing and of the opinions of this group are amazing! Sylvester seems to be loved by many, while I could hardly get through it, or care what happened to most of the characters. On the other hand, while I enjoyed Beauvallet, I see that on several bottom five lists.
What an interesting thread.
Sylvester is one of my top favourites, along with Devils Cub, how odd ;)
Sylvester a favorite of mine, too—I love his mother to death! And The Masqueraders was my number one GH for years, till I started to tire of the stilted language. I do love me a cross-dressing story; Twelfth Night still my favorite Shakespeare play!
Powder and Patch and Beauvallet were the most disappointing to me. After those 2 my least favorites are The Royal Escape and The Spanish Bride. No Wind of Blame is my least favorite mystery. All the others I really love. But even the last three got 4 stars. Really the only ones I don't care for are Powder and Patch and Beauvallet.
Abigail wrote: "Sylvester a favorite of mine, too—I love his mother to death! And The Masqueraders was my number one GH for years, till I started to tire of the stilted language. I do love me a cross-dressing stor..."I also love cross dressing in stories, which is another reason I should re-read the Masqueraders! Perhaps I was in a bad mood when I read it before and that influenced my opinion?
That does it, I must re-read it, beginning tonight!
Mod
The awful stilted language is really why The Masqueraders is near the bottom of my list. That and the fact that I simply don't believe in the masquerade. Possibly a woman in her 20s might pass herself off as a 19-year-old youth, though even 19 is rather late to be still not shaving. However, I don't believe a man, however slim and graceful, could pass himself off as a lady at a time every lady wore low-cut dresses to show off her bosom (which in his case he has not got). It's not just a question of stuffing a couple of hankies down the front of his dress - he would have needed something approximating to at least the tops of actual boobs, which a slim, active young man just can't do.
I came late to The Masqueraders; it was one of the last Heyer's I found, but, unfortunately, I have to put it in the bottom 5, too. I was disappointed in it for the same reasons, Jenny!
A Civil Contractthe Spanish Bride
an Infamous Army
Cousin Kate
Royal Escape.
there are a few i haven't read - Simon the coldheart and My Lord for instance might be in the bottom list if I had, many people seem to find them dull. But Civil Contract will always be at the very bottom.
Mod
the Spanish Bride
an Infamous Army
Cousin Kate
Royal Escape.
there are a few i haven't read - Simon the coldheart and My Lord for instance might be in the bottom list if I had, ma..."
LOL - 4 I really like in your bottom 5!
Jenny wrote: "Louise wrote: "A Civil Contractthe Spanish Bride
an Infamous Army
Cousin Kate
Royal Escape.
there are a few i haven't read - Simon the coldheart and My Lord for instance might be in the bottom li..."
yes, that's the way it is. Some i really like often seem to be ones that others don't care for. Royal escape perhaps shouldn't be there on reflection - i didn't dislike it, i just didn't feel there was much point in fictionalising a bit of history that is so exciting no fiction could match it.
I've only read Royal Escape once, I think, and I thought that it made an exciting adventure into a rather boring train of events. Maybe someday I'll try it again. Or maybe not...
I took advantage of the recent GH ebook sale to round off my collection, and just re-read Charity Girl, Sprig Muslin, and April Lady and figured out why two of them were on my "least liked" list (and April Lady could have been on it too.) In all three of them--especially the first two--the heroes and heroines have very, very little page time together. It's hard to develop a satisfying romantic relationship on the page if the two main parties involved only interact with each other a couple of times (in Charity Girl Hetty and Desford meet face to face a grand total of three times!) Instead, we have to rely on GH's telling us about their past relationships either through direct narrative or through the conversations of other characters in order to make the HEA at the end make any sense, and it just doesn't work for me. Whereas books where the hero and heroine interact frequently, like The Grand Sophy, Arabella, Frederica, and others, are much more satisfying.That just hit me this morning, and wanted to share.
That's a good insight, Marissa. Add to that the annoying Grand Misunderstanding in April Lady that could have been solved in five minutes if the hero and heroine had just talked to each other, which keeps them apart the entire book. If it wasn't for the brother and his pals in that one, it would be a total loss. (I love the highwayman scene.)
Marissa wrote: "I took advantage of the recent GH ebook sale to round off my collection, and just re-read Charity Girl, Sprig Muslin, and April Lady and figured out why two of them were on my "least liked" list (a..."I completely agree! How can we be part of a developing relationship if we're not a part of it?!?
And, Sherwood, I hate those kinds of misunderstandings with a passion. Aaaaargh!
Cousin KateReluctant Widow
The Foundling
Charity Girl
False Colours.
This list does not include the historicals or her suppressed novels. Because you can just as well add them, as well.
Rebekah wrote: "Cousin KateReluctant Widow
The Foundling
Charity Girl
False Colours.
This list does not include the historicals or her suppressed novels. Because you can just as well add them, as well."
Welcome Rebekah! Have you read all the suppressed ones? Helen is indeed a really bad book - one of the worst I've ever read!
Welcome Rebekah! Have you read all the suppressed ones? Helen is indeed a really bad book - one of the worst I've ever read! Thanks! The worst? that's an awfully high (or low?) bar! I thought it shed a lot of light on attitudes of the time and that class of young well-to-do people. I can scarcely remember it, it's been so long!
I've never read her Suppressed ones.. by and large, of the romances, i'd say Royal Escape, Powder and Patch, Masqueraders, Conqueror.. "older" history wasn't her forte.. IMO
No, she was still finding her way, but I really enjoyed P&P, and the Masqueraders, although the premise was ridiculous, had it's moments as well.
I enjoy bits of nearly all her novels, even the older ones where she was still learning..
having just struggled through the conquerer, i am now revising my bottom 5;A Civil Contract
the Conquerer
the Spanish bride
An infamous army
Cousin Kate
Goodness, Kate, Infam Army and Civil Contract are 3 of my favourites. Spanish bride Is OK, but a bit heavy going.but Im surprised you include the Conqueror because its nothing like the other 3 which are Regencies.
Its not a favourite of mine, I'd say that my least favourites are her early ones which are non regency - such as Royal Escape, Conqueror, and the Medievals and Beauvallet. She was still finding her feet with those ones.
Nadine wrote: "Goodness, Kate, Infam Army and Civil Contract are 3 of my favourites. Spanish bride Is OK, but a bit heavy going.but Im surprised you include the Conqueror because its nothing like the other 3 whi..."
i don't really care what period they are set in, it's how interesting and amusing i find the characters and the plot that counts for me. the Conquerer I found very dull and didn't like any of the characters,a nd was bored by all the descriptions of battles. infamous army and Spanish bride are also tedious because of the battle scenes,and although i liked the heroine of Cousin Kate i didn't like the plot, which i found macabre. Civil Contract i hate the plot and the characters.
Heyer stands out with her humor. When she goes historical, her humor suffers. Her mysteries I have read have some humor, but tend to have obvious guilty parties.
Louise wrote: "Nadine wrote: "Goodness, Kate, Infam Army and Civil Contract are 3 of my favourites. Spanish bride Is OK, but a bit heavy going.but Im surprised you include the Conqueror because its nothing like ..."
I strongly agree!
i think that while Heyer is a humorous writer, she's also capable of more serious stuff. I dont care much for the Conquerior becuase it was one of her earlier works and while she always had enormous talent she had't fully develeped as yet. same with Royal Escape and Beauvallet and one or 2 others. Masqueraders I find too "Forsoothy" and the plot is a bit fantastic but it has bits that are excellent.. I tink the problem iwht the historicals like My lord John etc was that she wasn't as well up on medieval history as she was on Regency, and she used the same kind of language which didn't work..and perhaps becuase she was busy with the regencies she wasn't able to devote as much time to MY Lord JOhn.
but Cousin Kate and CIvil Contract are both regencies, and I like the characters. Kate is an attempt at a Gothic which was v popular in the early 70s. I dont think that it was Heyer's forte but I think she wrote a low key kind of Gothic, no really weird mystery or supernatural stuff.. and IMO it worked very well.
Nadine wrote: "i think that while Heyer is a humorous writer, she's also capable of more serious stuff. I dont care much for the Conquerior becuase it was one of her earlier works and while she always had enormou..."i don't mind very much about the historical detail, it's the dullness I find offputting with the Conquerer.,a nd the interminable battle scenes. My Lord John and simon the Coldheart are two of only about half a dozen Heyers I haven't read (apart from the contemporary novels, which I have no interest in reading). And judgin by The Conqerer, i probsbly wouldn't enjoy them. The Masqueraders is one of my favourites, I love the characters and the plot. I liked kate in Cousin kate, but not any of the other characters, and the plot isn't my cup of tea. i dislike everything about Civil Contract, plot and characters. Only thing to be said for it is that there are no battles in it.
I would say that Civil Contract is her masterpiece..
Louise wrote: "i don't mind very much about the historical detail, it's the dullness I find offputting with the Conquerer.,a nd the interminable battle scenes.If you found The Conqueror dull Louise, I'd really recommend you stay away from My Lord John! It was just about impenetrable for me. Hopefully if GH lived she would have revised it. Maybe.
Nadine wrote: "I would say that Civil Contract is her masterpiece.."yes, a lot of people seem to like it. I absolutely loathe it. If she wrote a masterpiece i would say it is probably Cotillion.
Certainly cotillion is a very good one, and so is Grand Sophy, both brilliantly plotted, but Civil contract is a more realistic "real novel"...
Carol ♛ Type, Oh Queen! ♛ wrote: "Les.If you found The Conqueror dull Loui..."
She didnt really have a chance to work MY LORD JOHN up for publication, and I am not a medievalist myself so Im not much into the subject matter. It was obviously something she had an interest in, but I think her lack of a formal education may have made it difficult for her to fully understand the Middle Ages. It didn't matter so much with the Regency because she invented the genre and did a lot of her own original research into "Society" of the time...
I think it was Jane Aiken Hodge in The Private World of Georgette Heyer who pointed out how Heyer was hampered in her writing of the Middle Ages by the fact that she didn't "get" religious faith. (This is observable in the Regencies too, but doesn't matter nearly as much.) The medieval church was much more intimately bound up in the culture than it is today, and the writer who doesn't allow for that will get it wrong.
Nadine wrote: "Certainly cotillion is a very good one, and so is Grand Sophy, both brilliantly plotted, but Civil contract is a more realistic "real novel"..."i don't think it's any more realistic than any of the others. besides, I don't read georgette Heyer for realism, i read her to be amused. And Civil Contract didn't amuse me at all. I'm not particularly fond of The grand sophy, but it's definitely better than Civil Contract.
Margaret wrote: "I think it was Jane Aiken Hodge in The Private World of Georgette Heyer who pointed out how Heyer was hampered in her writing of the Middle Ages by the fact that she didn't "get" reli..."I think Kloester mentions it, too, in her biography, because I remember thinking, "Oh, that does explain a lot!" (But I don't know where!)
It was Hodge. Perhaps Kloester said ti too but I didn't really read her bio...
Nadine wrote: "It was Hodge. Perhaps Kloester said ti too but I didn't really read her bio..."I haven't read Hodge's bio, just Kloester's, so I think she mentions it, too. I'm going to give it a re-read one of these days, so I'll keep my eyes peeled for the reference.
I've read both and they're both very good reads.
Teresa wrote: "I've read both and they're both very good reads."I was just thinking that I used to enjoy Aiken Hodge's romances (although I liked her quirky sister's [Jane Aiken] books better, especially those written for children), but the bio of Heyer has never come my way!
its not great, IMO. But it was only written very soon after Heyer died and wtih her son and husband over looking it.. so it is bound to be very limited in what was said..
Karlyne wrote: "Teresa wrote: "I've read both and they're both very good reads."I was just thinking that I used to enjoy Aiken Hodge's romances (although I liked her quirky sister's [Jane Aiken] books better, es..."
I loved Jane Aiken Hodge's books, which I read in my innocent teens. Btw, I assume you meant her sister Joan (Aiken)?
Susan in Perthshire wrote: "Karlyne wrote: "Teresa wrote: "I've read both and they're both very good reads."I was just thinking that I used to enjoy Aiken Hodge's romances (although I liked her quirky sister's [Jane Aiken] ..."
Haha! Yes, Joan! Can you imagine their mother calling them home from play? "Jaaane.. No, wait - Joooooan."
Sherwood wrote: "I wonder if [Infamous Army] was on a "fiction about Waterloo" list, and that turned into a tale about it being studied. I'd be really surprised if it was really used as a text--as gripping as it is, it's fairly..."Carol ♛ Type, Oh Queen! ♛ wrote: That is plausible. I'm going to a Heyer conference next month & Jen Koestler is one of the speakers. I'll ask her opinion.
Did you get the chance to ask? (Or has the reply already been posted but I've missed it?) It's always seemed very unlikely to me, and it annoys me to see people claim that it is (still!) on the Sandhurst reading list, on the basis of a statement made so long ago. Even if it was once, they should at least check whether it is now.
Infamous Army is definitely in my bottom 5. It reads to me like two separate books: a romance clumsily joined to large chunks of "serious history".
Spanish Bride is also in the bottom 5. At least it started me reading the Sharpe books and then the Aubrey-Maturin series, as well as various non-fiction books about the Napoleonic period. It was a bit of a shock to see how much Heyer lifted verbatim from some of the memoirs. I thought naively that historical novelists read the background stuff and then expressed it in their own words, not that they were copying and pasting on a large scale.
The others would be Charity Girl, Regency Buck, and a toss-up between Reluctant Widow and Frederica.
Alathea wrote: "Sherwood wrote: "I wonder if [Infamous Army] was on a "fiction about Waterloo" list, and that turned into a tale about it being studied. I'd be really surprised if it was really used as a text--as ..."Gosh if ever there was an example of two people with absolutely opposite tastes in GH books - it must be you and I Alathea!
An Infamous Army, Regency Buck, The Reluctant Widow and Frederica are in my top 10 of Georgette Heyer books, that I revisit regularly and continue to enjoy. But, as we say regularly on here, it would be boring if we all agreed on everything wouldn't it?
It is always nice to hear from others who have different preferences, or who introduce new opinions about books we all love.
Alathea wrote: "Did you get the chance to ask? (Or has the reply already been posted but I've missed it?) It's always seemed very unlikely to me, and it annoys me to see people claim that it is (still!) on the Sandhurst reading list, on the basis of a statement made so long ago. Even if it was once, they should at least check whether it is now.Yes I did ask, see message 38 in this thread. Koestler says definitely true & documented.
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
My use of past tense gels with my impression that it is no longer used at Sandhurst.
& it pains, me to say it, but a lot of
is close to verbatim from some of Harry Smith's memoirs. (I haven't finished reading them but I am well past the Spanish Bride period of Smith's very full life)
Thank you Carol. I must have missed the Sydney Conference thread because I only started following this group in September. I haven't read Harry Smith's memoirs, maybe I'll give them a go.Susan, what are your top 5? Mine would include Civil Contract, Cotillion, False Colours, Talisman Ring... undecided about the fifth, there are several jostling for place there.
I've been reading Heyer for so long though that the order of most and least favourites has gone through some significant upheavals :-)
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My bottom five, from those that I have read, in no particular order:
1) Barren Corn
2) Charity Girl
3) The Masqueraders
4) Sylvester
5) A Civil Contract