Underground Knowledge — A discussion group discussion
FRINGE SCIENCE
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Is the brain the origin of our consciousness? OR is the brain merely a receiver?
I comforted my wife while she was dying by pointing out there may well be more to it all. I have an alternative interpretation of quantum mechanics, which is essentially the de Broglie/Bohm idea that there is a real wave that causes diffraction effects, etc, and the wave guides the particle, and the particle's motion regenerates the wave. Now, if you add the requirement that the phase velocity of the wave must equal the particle velocity (so both turn up at the same time) then there has to be a complementary energy field, presumably in an additional dimension. That may seem ugly, but is it more ugly than "everything happens without a cause"? Anyway, if at death that energy field can dissociate from the body, then something of you persists, and it was that energy field that stopped the random chaos in the brain. Maybe. I guess I shall find out eventually, but I am in to great hurry to do so.
Tim, the argument is for any particle, and the wave has a wavelength determined by the de Broglie relation pλ = h, so in practice, the particles have to have momenta that you might expect from particles the size of electrons or simple molecules. Te discharges from synapses in the brain are too big, and if they are doing the thinking, this may not be very relevant, but they may also be discharges resetting balances, i.e. what happens after thoughts are generated. Also, I suppose, a discharge of a lot of electrons or simple molecules could be governed by a lot of separate waves.We don't really know much about thoughts at all. So far, it is all speculative.
Tim, nobody really understands what time is. However, if you follow Einstein's relativity, then if something travels at the speed of light (only possible for zero rest mass) then time stops. Don't know whether that helps you :-)
Ian wrote: "Tim, nobody really understands what time is. However, if you follow Einstein's relativity, then if something travels at the speed of light (only possible for zero rest mass) then time stops. Don't ..."Jeez, we are back to the old zero issue again!
"The brain is a receiver" a voice in my brain tells me..."Science is just too young to understand," is a phrase that springs forth from the back of my brain...
Are these original ideas or just things my brain is regurgitating?
My gut (my other brain) tells me we gotta look back to the Ancients for they knew what we are yet to understand/remember...
I trust my gut over my head brain.
Just my two cents worth.
Our brains must be synchronized, Tim, as I agree with you 100% also.Can I ask, how much did you learn or sense about life and the universe during your time as a soldier? For example, did you find it changed/evolved you to learn to work in a team to survive instead of just an individual? When you were shipped out to foreign locations, did the travel and facing the fear that you could die during service make you consider things about your own mortality before your ordinarily would have?
I've come across a lot of ex-military people who are enormously successful in other mediums. Have worked with quite a few in the film industry actually and I think their former military service is mostly an advantage to them.
Wow, thanks so much for sharing that, Tim.Really heartfelt stuff and the grit of real life.
What you say about those men you served with being your brothers makes sense.
That's quite a journey you've been on, but it's not doubt made you deeper as an artist/storyteller.
And yeah, I feel the same as you: religion (or organized religions at least as we need to remember native peoples have their own traditional religions) is generally the "without" whereas spirituality is the "within".
Cheers
James
James, yes zero is an important number and keeps on turning up. Just to spoil things 1 turns up all the time but is harmless because whatever you multiply bye it, nothing happens. However a particularly troublesome number for me is 2 :-(
James wrote: "I recommend deceased author Robert A. Monroe, founder of the Monroe Institute in Virginia, and basically the godfather of CIA/military remote viewing methods (much of which spirall..."Robert A. Monroe Interview with Art Bell - 1994 Classic Institute OBE (Out of Body Experience) Research https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XM1Yo...
Bob Monroe books:
Journeys Out of the Body: The Classic Work on Out-of-Body Experience
Ultimate Journey
Far Journeys
The Journey of Robert Monroe: From Out-Of-Body Explorer to Consciousness Pioneer
Wow, guys, this is an awesome video:The Phenomenon of Brainlessness - Physicist Nassim Haramein discusses the ability to function normally with minimal brain matter! https://www.goodreads.com/videos/1242...
“Looking for consciousness in the brain is like looking Inside a radio for the announcer.” ―Nassim Haramein
Is this finally a scientific theory of consciousness that makes sense?Dr. Dirk K.F. Meijer, a professor at the University of Groningen in the Netherlands, hypothesizes that consciousness resides in a field surrounding the brain. This field is in another dimension. It shares information with the brain through quantum entanglement, among other methods. And it has certain similarities with a black hole.
This field may be able to pick up information from the Earth’s magnetic field, dark energy, and other sources. It then “transmits wave information into the brain tissue, that … is instrumental in high-speed conscious and subconscious information processing,” Dirk wrote.
In other words, the “mind” is a field that exists around the brain; it picks up information from outside the brain and communicates it to the brain in an extremely fast process.
He described this field alternately as “a holographic structured field,” a “receptive mental workspace,” a “meta-cognitive domain,” and the “global memory space of the individual.”
Am listening to this right now...New Graham Hancock There is no Death, Consciousness is Everything [FULL VIDEO] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzOol...
Zohar StarGate Ancient Discoveries
Published on Oct 29, 2017
Graham Hancock presents evidence on his believe that there is life both before and after physical death. We are not our bodies. We are our consciousness. And consciousness is the greatest mystery of science.
To get a clearer understanding of consciousness and life after death, Hancock suggests looking back at ancient civilizations, particularly the ancient Egyptians, who possessed a remarkable model of the afterlife. By studying the intricate and numerous hieroglyphs in the pyramid walls (transcribed today in what is known as the Book of The Dead), one quickly realizes the Egyptians honoured death even more so than life as a large majority of their lives were based around the preparation for death, and that when this time came a soul would face Anubis in a review of their life. The consequences of a person’s life choices were something to reflect on deeply according to the Egyptians. Likewise, the Ancient Egyptians believed in reincarnation – after each life a soul would review lessons learned in the previous life to ensure that they would not repeat them in the next.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzOol...
There is no doubt that consciousness is a great mystery. However, reincarnation raises a problem - what is the point of it if you cannot take any memories through with you? (I know some people claim they have recalled such memories under hypnosis, but have they?) If you don't know about your previous life and have to start again, why is it you are not different anyway?
I agree Ian, I'm more interested in what consciousness is and the deeper levels scientists are slowly beginning to discover, rather than the reincarnation theory which I also sense is a misunderstanding
Read anything by Harold W Percival on this topic...his thoughts were essentially that the human body and brain were merely vehicles for consciousness...consciousness being the actual "you"...the one who speaks in your head and drives your decisions. Unlike Hinduism/Buddhism belief that one doesn't remember his past lives because it would not give him true opportunity to overcome past faults without clouding his judgement, Percival's philosophy is more neo-platonic(we are and everything else around us are mere copies of a more perfect version/ideal/idea on a different plane) in the idea that there exists limitless knowledge on different planes of existence-when one dies, he may access these planes and then come back and bring with him that knowledge. So essentially, every major scientific discovery already exists and was/is brought with them back to earth and there is more knowledge to come. I always do wonder why we now have so much technology-why didn't someone think of it 20-30 years ago or more? Richard Matheson wrote a great novel "What Dreams May Come" which delves into this....Percival wrote many tomes on the topic, but the short version is "Man, Woman and Child".
I think the real problem is that something has to organise the thoughts. I think we are beginning to understand what happens in the brain, e.g. with small electrical movements, but the question is, why do these minute currents work in that way, as opposed to being just plain random? Currents themselves would merely "flatten out the potentials and stop, and I rather fancy that s what happens when you die, and very quickly, but what keeps them organised?
The other potential problem may be that the average scientist is not open to the idea that the origin of consciousness could be beyond the brain.
Or at least beyond the three spatial dimensions.
There is no doubt that consciousness is a great mystery. However, reincarnation raises a problem - what is the point of it if you cannot take any memories through with you? I always wonder about that. How does anyone know they are not having someone else's memories? Who were "you" anyway? Whats the difference between "you" and "somebody else"? Logic problem?
Ancestor memories in the DNA is possible too?
I've considered the DNA angle. For as much as there is, I don't think it's sufficient to account for past life memories. I'm also not convinced the neurons in the brain are sufficient to contain the memories of just one life.
As for DNA, if it were to store memories it would have to change in accord with whatever activated it. But the whole point of DNA is that it is mostly immutable, and when it does change, out tends to make a minor modification that either enhances (occasionally) or produces something useless (most of the time), or it tends to generate a cancer. So I think we can rule out DNA
What about epigenetics? Does that potentially tie in to the idea that memories of our ancestors lives could be misconstrued as past life memories?Then again, some people remember lives of people of other races they are not likely related to at all.
Yes, I have read about people who claim to have memories of previous lives, but I have no idea how valid the claims are. For example, they might inadvertently recall something they read and were entranced by. On the other hand, if they really did live previous lives, that is fascinating. However, my point still stands because most people cannot do that, and if most people have to restart fresh, then what is the difference between their not having had a past, and that past being obliterated?
There is a lot of stuff on YouTube about reincarnation, some very good documentaries. One that struck me in particular was set in Sri Lanka. The family of "the deceased" recognised her immediately. There is another story of a woman who set out to find her previous family. On accomplishing this they would have no truck with her about her story.
Ian wrote: " However, reincarnation raises a problem - what is the point of it if you cannot take any memories through with you? and However, my point still stands because most people cannot do that, and if most people have to restart fresh, then what is the difference between their not having had a past, and that past being obliterated? "I'm not saying I necessarily believe this myself, but two answers to your questions would be:
When we die, there is a moment on 'the other side' where we do recall not just the life we've just had but also every life had before hand, before embarking on the next life.
Or: reincarnation is not a good thing, and is part of a spiritual 'conspiracy' which keeps us trapped in earthly lives of amnesia, not allowing our spirits to be free or move on to the next stage after we've died.
Harry, that is logically possible, but I guess there is no way of knowing until you die. As far as I am concerned, that is something I am in no hurry to learn.
Ian wrote: "Harry, that is logically possible, but I guess there is no way of knowing until you die. As far as I am concerned, that is something I am in no hurry to learn."Well Ian, you're underground right now, even while still alive...This is the Underground!
On a serious note, do you think eventually science can test for things like a soul, the afterlife etc? Or do you see Science as having its limitations?
Yep, underground is OK, dead slightly less so.I definitely think science has it limitations. As for testing for a soul, the problem is, how do you get a response independent of the person who "owns" it? There are some secondary reports. I read of a famous neurosurgeon who actually had to have surgery, and while this was going on and things got bad, he had an "out of body" experience, and later could describe things being said in another room that he could not reasonably have known about. The question then is, is that evidence? Currently, of course, science says nothing about it. As an aside, anyone who says science says there cannot be a soul because science has no means of encompassing one merely show false logic. When science says nothing about it, that is all it says - nothing. Nothing in favour, nothing opposing.
Some say there is nothing potentially for it, and I disagree there. I have my own interpretation of quantum mechanics (an ebook is published, but while the maths are not too difficult, conceptually it is difficult and most definitely not light reading) and if you put on the requirement that the wave has to keep up with the particle for it to do anything to it, then what you find is that there has to be another energy field, probably in another dimension. So in this case the energy of your brain activity is replicated "elsewhere".
Ian wrote: "Harry, that is logically possible, but I guess there is no way of knowing until you die. As far as I am concerned, that is something I am in no hurry to learn."If you change your mind about being in a hurry to learn, I know a dodgy bloke at this pub that could help... :)
Ian wrote: "Some say there is nothing potentially for it, and I disagree there. I have my own interpretation of quantum mechanics (an ebook is published, but while the maths are not too difficult, conceptually it is difficult and most definitely not light reading) and if you put on the requirement that the wave has to keep up with the particle for it to do anything to it, then what you find is that there has to be another energy field, probably in another dimension. So in this case the energy of your brain activity is replicated "elsewhere". ..."Okay, thanks, I think I understand what you are alluding to here, Ian.
Ian,There is no doubt that the human body is piloted by a (soul, spirit, whatever). The fact that science can't prove or disprove doesn't make it otherwise.
Consider for a moment that we had all the answers to all of our questions about the unknown, what would we do then?
Of course we don't have all the answers, but it is fun asking the questions, which is also the first step. My first question is, what is it and where is it? My first guess at "where" is an extra dimension because in my interpretation of quantum mechanics, there is an energy field we cannot detect, but which interacts with matter once every period of the wave associated with every particle. Too complicated to explain it further here, but it is in my ebook "Guidance Waves".
did you ever read The Celestine Prophesy?
Christopher wrote: "did you ever read The Celestine Prophesy?"No. Actually, I hadn't heard of it. Sorry.
No worries, it was great till three quarters through the book, then I threw it in the garbage. The reason I asked is that there is a section about energy, an unseen energy. The author described a method by which it could be seen with the human eye. Being me, I tried it and low and behold, it worked. (Just an FYI here, I'm sensitive to energies and can feel other peoples emotions from a long distance away)To the best of my knowledge, this energy is the same thing the aura is comprised of. it's definitely there, I see it all the time.
Below is a link to some interesting reading. It might just be right up your alley.
https://borderlandsciences.org/journa...
As you may gather, I have predicted an unaccounted for energy field associated with motion, and matter. Obviously I don't know whether this corresponds to whatever you see. As for the link, it is something that could be repeated. Some of what he says would seem explicable now from Maxwell's laws, but the effects on human subjects seems much stronger than anyone could reasonably predict. If magnetism did these things, I would expect people having MRI scans would feel them. For what it os worth, I have been in physics labs where you leave your credit cards elsewhere because of strong magnetic fields, and I am afraid I felt nothing like that. I know that proves little, but . . .
Ian wrote: "As you may gather, I have predicted an unaccounted for energy field associated with motion, and matter. Obviously I don't know whether this corresponds to whatever you see. As for the link, it is s..."Really appreciating your ongoing scientific insights, Ian.
It's not everyday scientists share with everyday people and so I'm learning from you :)
Ian wrote: "As you may gather, I have predicted an unaccounted for energy field associated with motion, and matter. Obviously I don't know whether this corresponds to whatever you see. As for the link, it is s..."I believe that's why he chose the test subjects he did. Some people are naturally more sensitive than others and go through their whole lives not understanding it. Personally, I've learned to pay attention to very minute changes in how and what I feel. Hold that up to what is in my current environment and experiment with distance and what have you. It's an interesting life I lead, no doubt. Someday science will catch up.
Our brain is both it is a receiver as well as a generator of consciousness, it receives signals from our five senses touch, taste, smell, sound, and hearing. The basic unit of consciousness in a living system is a cell. Since our brain is also made up of cells, so it is generating consciousness. We can define consciousness as 'the reaction of our brain on the basis of its memory to the different stimuli those are sent by our sense organs to our brain.' This definition is in the context of human beings or higher animals, but every living cell in our body or a unicellular animal like Amoeba also has consciousness.
But how can you say all that with such certainty, Mahesh, when science currently knows jacksh*t about consciousness and where it comes from?I'm not saying you're wrong at all, but surely all this you've said amounts to academic guesswork?
For example, what scientific experiments prove human consciousness originates in the brain and nowhere else? What studies have debunked the counter theories that say the brain is merely receiving consciousness?
If you see at the atom it is 99.999% empty, it has electrons spinning in orbits which are different states of energy, so every atom is made up of energy, this energy of the atoms is in the ATP in mitochondria of the cell of our brain, this is true for all living cells, this energy which is a part of the universal energy, that is traversing through atoms, which are making any living system, is consciousness. A cell is the unit of consciousness of living systems. So in that sense our consciousness is the part of universal consciousness. Our consciousness is maintained by energy, if a cell is unable to produce energy it will lost its consciousness and will be pronounced dead.
Mahesh wrote: "So in that sense our consciousness is the part of universal consciousness. Our consciousness is maintained by energy, if a cell is unable to produce energy it will lost its consciousness and will be pronounced dead. ..."Okay, so you're talking almost a "universal mind"?
The term, "Collective consciousness" was coined a long time ago. It would explain some psychic abilities, https://wordpress.com/view/psychometr...
James wrote: "Mahesh wrote: "So in that sense our consciousness is the part of universal consciousness. Our consciousness is maintained by energy, if a cell is unable to produce energy it will lost its conscious..."The mind is different from consciousness, take this example, higher animals like human beings, dogs and cats will have minds, but the cells will not have minds. They will have consciousness. So, we can say that mind is the conglomeration of many cells, and each of them is having consciousness till it has the life. Life means an ability to produce energy to sustain and reproduce itself. Therefore, the mind is the combination of many cellular systems of consciousness.
So you essentially put consciousness down to microbiology?
Underground Knowledge — A discussion group
Books mentioned in this topic
The Holographic Universe (other topics)The Syntellect Hypothesis: Five Paradigms of the Mind's Evolution (other topics)
The Art of Dying (other topics)
Magic of Reading: May your grandest dreams appear! (other topics)
The Biology Of Belief: Unleashing The Power Of Consciousness, Matter And Miracles (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Graham Hancock (other topics)Bruce H. Lipton (other topics)
Bruce H. Lipton (other topics)
Graham Hancock (other topics)
Nassim Haramein (other topics)
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I have heard the expression "nothing new exists under the sun" and I believe it's possible for us to share consciousness on some level, bring with us past knowledge or shared knowledge from karmic cycles or that idea are possibly transmitted from an "ether" to us much like Tesla believed.
Hindus believe in the Atman or oversoul. This is an interesting concept because the soul rests in your brain area...but is not the brain itself. True yoga, not western stretch classes, emphasizes finding the real "you" through meditation and in doing so you will shuffle off the mortal coil and as with Buddhism, when you relinquish attachment to materialism your consciousness will return to Brahman/Nirvana and be subsumed essentially into a blissful oblivion. The question I have heard recently in a book by Sri Yogananda is "who are you and who is that voice in your head?" Does the voice and thoughts have your voice? Your dad? Your moms? Is it disembodied? Why is always there? Why do we dream?
I am not a scientist nor a theologian, but philosophically I find the cross section of spirituality and science to be very enlightening.