[2017] 4th Mini-Poll Results

[Laura, Celestial Sphere Mod]

I can use that format (broken by category) when I post the list tomorrow. But, as Zaz said, it is in the Announcements thread if you want to use it while choosing the suggestion you want to make.

[Elín Birna]

Ok, hadn't noticed it in the announcement post. But yes sounds good to post it for the suggestions as well :)

[Jody]

I am also not too keen on restrictions just yet. I'm all for suggestions of what gaps could be filled given what we currently have, but I would still rather pick my top four from all of the suggestions rather than one per category.

[°~Amy~°]

Zaz wrote: "I'd like "Something you find challenging" or "A format you don't usually read" (poetry, epistolary, diary, etc) for the 4th type of suggestion as I think both of them are currently lacking in the l..."

Yes! Exactly! What Zaz said! I too have had a few categories in other challenges that I was not looking forward to, but in the end, I was surprised that I actually DID find something I liked. Graphic Novels were one and a play was another. Those are two genres I never would have considered if I hadn't been "forced" into them by challenges. Mixed in with a bunch of less challenging topics and a bunch of really easily filled topics, 2-3 of the "hard" topics is perfect, in my opinion anyway.

[Rachel]

One of the ideas I had was if Laura includes a "I don't like anything in this category" option, then we can pick 2 from another category. I don't know if that's at all feasible with how the polls are set up, and in any case, it may be too close to just having free voting without categories.

What I find a bit confusing is that we are currently lacking in title and genre based categories, yet there were many of those suggested. In fact, a few of us complained early on that we didn't want so many title or cover-based prompts yet the list so far only has 1.

I'm just wondering what it was about those kinds of prompts in earlier polls that made people choose not to vote for them. I have nothing against categories to choose books from a list or from other people's suggestions/bookshelves, but it seems like as a group, we are biased toward those kinds of prompts. I'm curious about what people tend to look for when they cast their votes.

[Charity]

I don't think we should put restrictions on what categories people have to suggest and I especially don't think we should say you have to chose one from 4 specific categories. The thing I like about this group and the challenge is that we get to chose the topics. I don't like all of the topics but obviously a majority of the group does and I will make it work. Would I like to see more variety i.e. Genre, content, in the title? Yes but I don't think that should be forced. People see the posts and know what categories people think there are too many/not enough of so why can't we just let people keep that in mind when they make suggestions and vote as we always have. If the majority of people think there are too many of one specific category i.e. lists then maybe put that one restriction on the next vote but not make it any more restrictive.

[Peter]

I disagree as well about restricting the voting. I would like to be able to pick my top 4 choices regardless of what type or category they fall under. I don't mind if there are restrictions placed on the submissions to encourage variety, but the voting should remain unrestricted.

Here's my issue with the categories. No offense to Zaz, but the three categories she suggested and the ones Laura is planning on incorporating into the next poll seem to be entirely Zaz's opinion and not a consensus among the group. Personally, I have absolutely no interest in "title" or "publishing" categories. I don't enjoy topics that are find x word in the title or a book published in x year. I don't feel like those areas are lacking on the list so far because I don't want them in the first place. If a couple make it onto the final list by popular demand, so be it, but I definitely don't feel like they are lacking.

My suggestion to encourage variety would be doing something like this.

Decide on the broad categories the mods would like to encourage topics in. I would suggest incorporating 4, maybe 5 categories. So for example, genre/publishing/title/theme/character related suggestions. Once those broad categories are decided, either by vote or by the mods, submissions can be restricted to those broad categories. However, in order to not get a disproportionate number of suggestions from one area, I would suggest capping each category at 2 topics.

So essentially, the first 10 topics would be 2 suggestions each from genre/publishing/title/theme/character - ie, once two genres are suggested, future suggestions need to fulfill one of the other broad categories. Once each category has two suggestions, open up the remaining spots in the poll to free suggestions. That way there will be some topics included from specific areas, but they won't flood or overwhelm the poll with too many similar ideas (meaning we are less likely to end up with two very similar topics and or there is less chance two topics will split votes), and it still leaves options for ideas outside of those areas. Leave the voting as is and allow members to continue just picking their top 4 rather than putting restrictions on where your votes must be placed.

That's my two cents for what it's worth.

[Rachel]

I don't mind title or publishing categories as long as they are somewhat broad, but looking at the topics suggested/votes cast so far, they aren't very well-liked. Obviously there's a reason people haven't been voting for the genre or title-based categories.

For me, when I choose which categories to vote for, I actually tend to figure out my bottom 4 first. I tend to rule out categories that I think (or that after a bit of investigating) won't have many options that interest me, and I also rule out categories that we've done before. So part of it for me is about practicality. My Top 4 in the polls so far have covered everything, including genre, title, content, etc. That's why I'm so confused about why, as a group, we seem to be missing topics in certain categories.

[Peter]

Rachel wrote: "I don't mind title or publishing categories as long as they are somewhat broad, but looking at the topics suggested/votes cast so far, they aren't very well-liked. Obviously there's a reason people..."

That's sort of what I was getting at. There have been a lot of suggestions made about things found in the title. In fact 14 of the 56 topics not chosen so far have specifically noted something in the title/on the cover of the book. That's 25% of the unchosen topics. Clearly there hasn't been a shortage of suggestions, but they haven't been chosen. Which is why I suggested the idea of capping broad categories at 2 topics each and still allowing free submission afterwards so people aren't flooded by, for example, title related suggestions and forced to pick one as a top choice regardless of if they are really wanted.

Clearly the issue is not that topics specifically referencing the title are lacking but that they are just not wanted.

I don't want to be forced into choosing a topic from a "title" category, especially as it seems the rest of the group is not interested in those ideas either.

[Nicole]

Is it possible to send a message out to members about voting/suggestions? I feel like not everyone knows that we're choosing next year's list. I look at every unread topic, but if I wasn't so goodreads obsessed I probably wouldn't have seen this section.

Maybe this will help to get a better variety of topics? Although disclaimer: I have no complaints about our list, I don't feel that we're lacking in any area. But I would love to hear what people want and what others think we're lacking in. This way, I can try to vote in that direction so everyone is happy and we have a well rounded list!

[Peter]

On another note, as someone else mentioned already, we are still very early in the process to be making a decision on what topics we are lacking. If it was up to me, I'd just hold off on any sort of restriction altogether and just see how the list comes together.

[Rachel]

Peter wrote: "On another note, as someone else mentioned already, we are still very early in the process to be making a decision on what topics we are lacking. If it was up to me, I'd just hold off on any sort o..."

I agree to an extent, because I think now that more people know where to look to find the complete list of what we have so far, it will be easier to balance things out. On the other hand, I think it was Zaz that mentioned earlier that if we wait too long, it becomes much harder to balance things out once most of the list is already set.

I guess the other option is that we can always tailor our own personal challenges to meet our needs. Many of us do multiple challenges anyway or modify challenges, so we could always switch in categories we prefer or come up with our own "reject" challenge variant to include categories that we voted for that didn't make it.

[°~Amy~°]

Fine, I change my vote to no restrictions. I see the same people grumping that they don't want restrictions as were grumping about not having anything in their preferred categories chosen. Two of those people I specifically had in mind when stating my argument FOR some restrictions so seeing the flip flop is quite funny actually. I think I will just come back in 2017 and see what has been chosen. It really doesn't matter. One way or another it will work out or we'll do another challenge. It's all supposed to be fun but this arguing isn't fun.

[Charity]

I have to agree with Peter in this case. Those categories that we are "lacking" is the opinion of one person not the majority. (No offense Zaz.) What I think is lacking and what any other one person thinks is lacking is probably not the same thing and is our own personal opinion. We are a group and the group voices it's opinion during the vote. Don't force restrictions just let the group opinion decide.

[Laura, Celestial Sphere Mod]

Amy, I wouldn't really call it arguing but it is making it a little hard for me to formulate a plan. I'm not sure I know what people want at this point :P

Since everyone seems to be a tad all over the place, what do we think of something more like:

Poll 5: open submission/voting except for the restriction that the suggestions not be based upon lists or TBR/bookshelves + question about dedicated resubmission polls

Post-Poll 5: re-evaluation about the need for restricted submissions

Poll 6: potentially resubmissions or restricted polling

[Rachel]

I also wouldn't call it arguing, just a discussion with lots of different opinions. I think any "flip-flopping" (and I know I'm probably one of the culprits myself) is because we keep changing our minds ourselves. I think the reason Laura can't figure out what we want is because we don't know either.

I think all the back and forth about whether we should restrict the polls are not comes down to what we want the final list to look like. To me, a lot of it comes down to trying to "balance" the list, so there are suggestions based on a genre, author, title, etc. so there is something for everyone. I think part of the struggle with that is, by the nature of a voting system, our results will be biased in some ways and in any case, we all have very different ideas of what "balance" looks like.

Part of the problem with deciding things like this as a group is that it is hard to please everyone. I just want to say that I'm actually quite happy with the challenge so far, and regardless, I would participate in it no matter what categories were voted for. Like others have mentioned earlier, sometimes the best finds come from categories we never wanted to read anyway.

Laura, I like your idea of restricting the next poll only in terms of no more lists/bookshelves. And I'm all for a resubmissions poll coming up soon. I think there have been so many great ideas that got overlooked. I would actually love if there was a way (maybe at the end of the year) to see how the votes played out. I always end up wondering how close the votes were, and how certain categories fared.

[Laura, Celestial Sphere Mod]

I totally understand the back and forth because there are plenty of times where I read something and understand the point and change my thinking. That's what being flexible is all about.

My concern with the resubmissions is just that people can always resubmit ideas if there is one they really like. And I like seeing new submissions each time :) But I can include that as a question in poll 5 so that the group can give their opinion.

Nicole: since we're a little ways into the process I can send out a message for this round of suggestions just to remind the group that the voting is happening. But I likely won't send a message for every suggestion/voting thread since people would likely get a little tired of them.

[Peter]

I think Laura and Rachel are right about the "flip flopping", I think it's less being indecisive and more people are being flexible and open minded about how we should tackle this process and altering their perspective when other people offer their ideas. I know early on I started to get worried because in the first two polls, most of the categories that made it onto the final list were at the bottom end of the options for me. As it's progressed it has evened itself out and I'm liking the way the 2017 list is shaping up. All of my suggestions are ideas to try and make things better for all of us.

I realize my suggestion to do a semi-restricted poll may seem overly complicated, but that was to try and make both sides of the option happy and allow for some ideas focused on specific areas as well as open ended new ideas in the same poll without forcing people to choose a prompt within a category (for example title prompts) if they didn't want to.

That idea could potentially work for a resubmission poll too though....say 10 resubmissions and 10 new topics. Just have people post whether it's a "new" or "resubmitted" topic when they post their suggestion so the mods can keep track. This would allow for a mix of new and old ideas so we can pull back some of the great topics already but still have new ideas added.

[Laura, Celestial Sphere Mod]

I think that's a good idea for the resubmission poll.

I honestly almost said we would use that system in order to restrict the suggestions for the 5th poll but then it seemed like people didn't like the category options. So I decided to just wait. But it may end up being a good compromise for resubmissions.

[J]

What you need is a poll to decide how the people want their polls.

[Peter]

J wrote: "What you need is a poll to decide how the people want their polls."

lol - democracy at it's most bureaucratic...

[Charity]

I like the idea of only restricting the vote to no lists/bookshelves. I'm a list person but we do seem to have quite a few already. Hopefully restricting what we have too much of will open up the possibility of other categories getting the votes.

I don't mind a vote for resubmissions since we have had some really good ones but if not everyone wants to that is fine too. My only concern with people resubmitting them in later polls is that last year some topics got submitted multiple times and never made it. I'm just going to hope people read between the lines this year and don't resubmit the same thing more than once. It limits other people's opportunity to suggest something that could be great.

[Zaz]

Nicole > a mass message was sent just before starting the 2017 list and the people who subscribed to the 2017 announcement topic receive updates each time something new is posted :) (I know members joined after that but we don't want to spam).

About the "in title", last year we had many suggestions for them, and there are also several this year and probably less because Peter is voicing a lot that he doesn't want them. I want some, the number gave me a difficult time to choose a book, I loved Big Little Lies for the antonyms and it was nice to select a book starting like my name). I suppose if there are so many suggestions for them it's because people want some, but against more "interesting categories" they'll have difficulties to be in the top 4 (if I voted for the 2015 Popsug, I wouldn't have voted for them). But yeah, no obligation to have them in the list if few members are interested.

[Charity]

Zaz I really like the in the title ones too. I did an I Spy challenge in another group that included things like a title that has a product of fire, an element in the title, a body part in the title, etc. I really hope we end up with at least a couple of these types of categories. When I suggested the royalty book I almost put or a book with a Royal title in the title (queen, king, Prince, princess) but I didn't want people to not vote on it because of the in the title part.

[Peter]

Zaz wrote: "Nicole > a mass message was sent just before starting the 2017 list and the people who subscribed to the 2017 announcement topic receive updates each time something new is posted :) (I know members..."

Let's clear something up here. I'm in no way telling people not to suggest topics about the title. I've only ever used that specific type of topic as an example, and I've always stated that I personally am not a fan of them. I have not asked or expected any member to change their suggestion or their vote based on my preferences. I've made suggestions and voiced my preferences in content based topics, but most people in these discussions have voiced their preferences towards or against specific topics at some point as these threads are discussions about what we as a group want to see on the final list.

I highly doubt that people are changing their votes based on my personal preferences, and if they are, they shouldn't be. People should be voting based on what they want, not what they think everyone else wants. If someone chooses to vote based on what they think someone else wants that's no one's fault but their own, and I don't appreciate the innuendo that I'm preventing members from suggesting or voting for what they want.

Zaz, I used the title related topics in one of my previous posts as an example because you suggested the list is lacking title related topics. However, my point was that what is "lacking" to you is extremely subjective and not what other people may view as lacking. I used my personal preference of fewer title related topics as an example of how opinions based on what is "lacking" can differ.

Statistically, there have been 15 title related suggestions and 1 has made it to the final list. That's a 6% success rate. On the other hand, title related topics make up 14 out of 56 reject topics which is 25% of the rejects. Overall, there have been approximately 72 total suggestions so far, 15 of which have been related to the title. Title related topics make up nearly 21% of the total suggested topics.

That means that a whole 1/5th of our total topics have been related to the title, so I'm not sure what you mean when you say there are less of them. The fact that they make up such a large portion of our total suggestions, yet only a single one has made it onto our decided list to date allows me to be fairly confident in concluding that there are members other than just me who don't want them.

As I've said before - I'll work with whatever topics end up making it to the final list. I've voiced my personal preferences here along with anyone else, but to suggest that I'm preventing people from suggesting certain topics is pretty unfair based on the number of already suggested title based topics.

[Francesca]

I think it's kind of tough with some suggestions and topics because a lot of this group and Goodreads members in general have very similar tastes and vote for what they know they'd like (nothing wrong with either of those, I'm just saying) so we end up with similar topics and the winners and losers can be somewhat predictable sometimes. For example, I knew the YA list was going to be a winner as soon as it was suggested and if I see something like poetry as the suggestion I can usually predict that it's going to be one of the ones that loses.

[Nadja]

I would disagree that most members don't like title related suggestions per se. The problem could be that there are too many titles suggestions per poll. Consequently they divide the votes and stay in the middle field. (I myself don't choose more than one each round because I want a balanced list and I could imagine others feel the same.)

[Peter]

Nadja, that's true, you're right. It may not be that people don't want them and split votes are the cause here. If that is the case, it still has nothing to do with anything I've mentioned about my preferences as was implied. I should clarify that I don't not want title prompts, I just tend to prefer others. My initial concern was with the number of title prompts that had been suggested which I don't think was misplaced as a quarter of the suggestions so far have had something to do with the title. That said that was based on the suggestions, not the results and I have no issue with the list we've come up with so far; I'm liking the way it's shaping up.

[Zaz]

Peter > Of course, people read and take in account what others would like or not in the list. If not, what's the point in explaining why you liked or not a suggestion or think something is missing? It's the same for managing the group, we actually listen what people want, we don't just read and say "whatever, I'm not interested". So if you say "I don't want categories about this or want more about that" (examples: titles & themes), the members who participate the topic can think twice before voting for something if they agreed with some of your arguments.

Francesca > Same for me, it was obvious that the YA list would make it as lots of members have YA in their plans. Last year, mysteries and fantasy were the fav genres, so no surprise we ended with several categories with them.

[Laura, Celestial Sphere Mod]

While there is typically a pretty clear preference for the winners, there is usually a closer call between some of the topics, particularly between positions 4 and 5. So just because there is a top 4, that doesn't mean that no one voted for the title prompts. There's also usually clear favorites that would pull the vote from the title prompts since they're a little less "fun". Some themes just look more appealing. So I'm sure it's a mixture of the vote being split (many members want a "title" prompt but they vote for different specific prompts in a given poll) and there just being more exciting ones they happen to be up against.

On a different note, our jobs as mods is make sure that the process is organized and that we come up with a balanced list. We notice that people don't respond well to having similar themes and in turn we try to make sure that there are other themes to balance that out. So in defense of Zaz, it's pretty obvious that title prompts are missing from the list so it would make sense to say "hey, we're missing these prompts". While members are able (and should) focus on personal preference, mods have to balance personal preference while also trying to focus on the needs of the group as a whole. So I don't want people to think that Zaz was like "I love title prompts! There's no titles in the list. I'm a mod and I want titles so I'm going to force the group to include them. Because I said so."

[Elizabeth]

can't wait to see the hole list , then I can start to pick my books out because knowing me if I start my list now I'll just keep change the books , but then I might do that any way

[Jennifer]

Hey Laura, you have the suggestions post for the 5th mini poll closed. Was it 12pm EST or another time zone?

[Zaz]

Jennifer, it's open! We were both away for the 12pm so Laura posted the topic so it would be ready ;)

[Jennifer]

Ok, lol. I kind of figured something held you guys up.

[Laura, Celestial Sphere Mod]

I really try to get on here on time, I swear! Stuff just seems to get in the way every time. Apologies!

[J]

Elizabeth wrote: "can't wait to see the hole list , then I can start to pick my books out because knowing me if I start my list now I'll just keep change the books , but then I might do that any way"

11/16 of the topics already have filled in possible choices for me.

Looking forward to 2017.

[Nicole]

Laura and Zaz- I only meant for one message to go out (and it was perfect!), not a new message for every poll. Don't worry, I wasn't encouraging spam :)!

Also, thanks for doing an amazing job mods! Based on the amount of discussions going on (volume wise) your job can't be easy, especially since I'm sure you all have jobs and such going on outside of goodreads. You're all rock stars.