How do we stimulate more discussion and debate on BYT?

[Nigeyb]

Thanks for these replies. The reason for starting this thread was because I feel, with so many dormant members, this group could and should be more vibrant.

Jennifer’s question is a good one, what do we want from discussions? For me, it’s no different from interesting book discussions in ‘the real world’: to try and gain new insights and a deeper appreciation of the books we read, and the era more generally. I read quite a few of the books that win the monthly polls and it seems a missed opportunity to just read them and then not try and articulate insights, or describe an emotional reaction, or to try and understand what I liked and what was less attractive - and then to share these with other participants. Reading how others respond is what captures my interest and engages me and, when it happens, it is what I love best about this group.

I never thought for a moment anyone reading the winning books would feel too shy to contribute - so that has been a big surprise, and an interesting insight. I am not sure how we overcome it, but I echo Jennifer’s words of encouragement, please do get involved.

The comments about “a vocal minority” have hit home. I am the most vocal member of the group, based on total comments, and I now realise that what I think of as enthusiasm, some others view as intrusive or domineering, which was obviously never my intention. As Jennifer suggests I will “tone it down a bit” which will hopefully give others the space they need to join in. I had already decided not to participate in the October discussions for various reasons. I nominated ‘Huxley in Hollywood’ (our November non-fiction read) so feel a sense of duty to contribute, but I promise I’ll be sparing.

[Lynaia]

I was deathly shy growing up and I can still get quite shy at times. When report cards came out, I often had the added comment that I should participate more in class. In many classes, I never said a word in class for the entire year. I definitely understand the fear of saying something stupid or just not knowing what to say. That being said, I would encourage those who are afraid to add to the discussions to jump right in. Start small. Just post an agreement to what someone else has said if nothing else. The more you do it, the less intimidating it becomes and you can start to add a little more. This group is quite encouraging and won't put you down for a "dumb comment". We would LOVE to hear from you.

[Ruth]

Nigeyb wrote: "Thanks for these replies. The reason for starting this thread was because I feel, with so many dormant members, this group could and should be more vibrant.

Jennifer’s question is a good one, wha..."

I hope you won't tone it down too much (if at all) actually Nigeyb as I really look forward to your comments and appreciate your input.

Now I know there are others that are wary of voicing an opinion I really ought to just dive in. I don't think anyone will think any the worse of me because I didn't find Vile Bodies as enjoyable the second time I read it, or because I sometimes find non-fiction books challenging and retreat to my safe place of cosy crime books.

[Val]

Ruth wrote: "I don't think anyone will think any the worse of me because I didn't find Vile Bodies as enjoyable the second time I read it, or because I sometimes find non-fiction books challenging and retreat to my safe place..."
I'm sure they won't Ruth, and most of us probably feel the same about some book or other. Second reads sometimes revive pleasant memories, but other times they no longer match changed reading tastes (and you know the plot, the ending, the punchline to the jokes, etc. so there is no element of surprise).


Some non-fiction books I have read recently seem to be fluffed up with irrelevance, trivia and repetition, as if the author (or publisher) thinks purchasers won't feel they have got their money's worth if the book doesn't run to 600 pages or more. I wish they would stop doing it (please); I get bored, put the book aside and never finish it. Then I don't really want to comment on a book I didn't finish.

[Ruth]

Val wrote: "Some non-fiction books I have read recently seem to be fluffed up with irrelevance, trivia and repetition, as if the author (or publisher) thinks purchasers won't feel they have got their money's worth if the book doesn't run to 600 pages or more. I wish they would stop doing it (please); I get bored, put the book aside and never finish it. Then I don't really want to comment on a book I didn't finish. ..."

I don't always want to read the whole of a non-fiction book in one go. Some non-fiction can be read in chunks over quite a prolonged period of time. Thinking about it, it's only since I've been on Goodreads with its expectation of readers having a start and finish date of a book that I've felt slightly pressured to read non-fiction from cover to cover rather than picking it up from time to time.

Two books that spring to mind here are Martin Edward's book on Golden Age Detective Fiction and D.J.Taylor's Bright Young People. I struggled through the second book to say I'd actually read it all at the time, but I do go back to it regularly to look up different people and read a particular chapter and it's a book I'm very fond of.

[Val]

Ruth wrote: "I don't always want to read the whole of a non-fiction book in one go. Some non-fiction can be read in chunks over quite a prolonged period of time. Thinking about it, it's only since I've been on Goodreads with its expectation of readers having a start and finish date of a book that I've felt slightly pressured to read non-fiction from cover to cover rather than picking it up from time to time."
That is true for me as well.
Perhaps we could have a different strategy for non-fiction: pick twelve books for the year and then dip into them over a longer period of time.

[Jan C]

Ruth wrote: "Nigeyb wrote: "Thanks for these replies. The reason for starting this thread was because I feel, with so many dormant members, this group could and should be more vibrant.

Jennifer’s question is ..."

I still haven't finished Vile Bodies. Maybe one day I'll be able to get into it. I read non-fiction (in addition to crime); my problem is with the fiction. Much of it leaves me cold. But the reason I joined this group was to fill holes in my reading. Just having trouble getting that done.

[Val]

The group read of "Vile Bodies" was before I joined, but I can see why it might pale on a second reading.
Are the books which leave you cold new ones to you Jan, or ones you have read before?
Are our attempts to attract dormant members by choosing popular books counter-productive, because they are turning off the regular posters who have already read them (or already tried them and given up)?

[Julie]

I think we are quite a ' niche' group in the fact that our timescale is quite narrow and for that reason we should expect the classics to be offered up a bit more regularly. Personally, I tend to edge more toward fiction by writers I've heard of but not necessarily read and leave the more obscure ones alone purely because I think it will lead more to an academic style debate which terrifies me!! I don't think the readership will be widened unless the group becomes more generalised, which is not really what it's about. Does anyone know how many people are posting regularly?

[Val]

There are somewhere between 8 and 20 regular voters and posters, depending on how you define regular, then about another 50 who post occasionally. There are over 1,000 members, but most of them have never posted anything. (I sorted members by numbers of posts and looked at the polls.)

I will nominate another bestseller next time, but then I will give the list a rest for a while.

[Jan C]

Val wrote: "The group read of "Vile Bodies" was before I joined, but I can see why it might pale on a second reading.
Are the books which leave you cold new ones to you Jan, or ones you have read before?
Are o..."

No, they are new to me. My only acquaintance with Evelyn Waugh was Brideshead and that was mainly because it had been on PBS here years ago. I didn't re-read it with the group when it was a group read because I didn't want to have to re-buy it. Even it, I had put down somewhere in the last third of the book. After a few years of letting it sit dormant I finally picked it back up on my own.

[Jan C]

Val wrote: "There are somewhere between 8 and 20 regular voters and posters, depending on how you define regular, then about another 50 who post occasionally. There are over 1,000 members, but most of them hav..."

The last couple of months I have been suggesting books off Allie's list. They haven't done very well in the polls. Otherwise I browse what is on my shelf, some of which has come out of suggestions I have gleaned from here or GR generally.

[Dawn]

http://www.vulture.com/2016/10/jennif...


Hey everyone ! Miss me much ! Just saw this link and thought about all of you ! Perfect for the BYTs to think about in the future . It certainly has me excited ! You know I will be reading the Mitford book ahead of time and the movie whenever it appears should be FABULOUS!!!

Have a great day !

Dawn

[Connie]

Dawn wrote: "http://www.vulture.com/2016/10/jennif...


Hey everyone ! Miss me much ! Just saw this link and thought about all of you ! Perfect for the ..."

The Scott and Zelda story fits in with our November book, Tender Is the Night. I think Jennifer Lawrence will do a great job as Zelda!

We're reading the Diana Mitford Mosley book in October so join in. This is the link:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

[Jan C]

Wow! I read the Milford book eons ago.

I was on a Fitzgerald jag then - not his books, but their lives, which led to the Gerald Murphys, Dorothy Parker, Lillian Hellman. The list goes on.

[Dawn]

Jan C. ~ did you think that Mitford's book about Zelda was a very good biography. I really have not looked into which biography of Zelda would be best to read. I knew that a few years ago some people were chatting a bit about a good book about her , but at that time I didn't have time to take up with this period yet. I always wanted to study the relationships that Zelda and Fitzgerald had together and separately . I know things were complicated but just to not what extent , why and who all were involved . I guess that just makes me another groupie of all the gossip of the famous elite of that time ! Do you think Stars and authors back in the day were much more glamorous and mysterious than they are today ?

I really have to say that I believe they were more mysterious which seemed to add to their glamour! I suppose of course it was because during the time after WWI - post WWII I believe women were still mostly trying to behave within the conventions of society . Sure we had the suffragette movement which was such a sad and terrible time for women to gain such small steps. Then eventually women became lively Flapper girls trying to break the rules but they all were not quite totally free as of yet.
To some point I still see women as being behind at times in a conservative society.

Does anyone else feel that women are still fighting to be C considered equals in a male dominated society and that maybe the mystery of the beauty and charm of actresses back in this period of Hollywood may be the reason for their special appeal . I know Nigeyb has suggested reading Huxley in Hollywood! This is kind of a great topic to talk about . The difference between old glamour of the Stars as compared to th new glamour ! 'Anyone have any famous old Stars to compare to new Stars with which they might make an example .

[Lynaia]

I think a lot of the difference was because of the studio system back then and how they created and controlled the publicity and image for their stars. And social media has exaggerated the difference even more. I can't imagine Ginger Rogers showing us movies of having her legs waxed or similar type things which we see all over social media now.

[Jan C]

Zelda by Nancy Milford was an excellent read for me at the time. I think it was 1970 and I was recovering from broken jaws. So I read a lot. I didn't know much about her at the time. So the book was a learning experience for me and it led me to other books involving some of the same people.

As Lynaia noted, the stars were under the studio system and they took care of everything, including keeping people out of the papers when scandal threatened.

[Bronwyn]

Lynaia wrote: "I think a lot of the difference was because of the studio system back then and how they created and controlled the publicity and image for their stars. And social media has exaggerated the differen..."

I agree with all of this. The podcast You Must Remember This is great for old Hollywood stories, but damn if the actors weren't under the thumb of the bosses.

Social media is definitely a factor. I know way more about most people than I ever wanted. Sometimes this is fine, other times not so much. There are a few authors where the more I know about them the less I like them, but I understand why they're so public for promoting themselves and whatnot. It's the same with actors. I try to ignore as much about celebrities as I can, but it's not always possible, is it?

I have Zelda: a Biography by Nancy Milford; my grandmother had a great library that's she's slowly letting us kids and grandkids have as she can't read anymore. I haven't read it yet, but with two biopics in the works, and an interest in Scott and Zelda, I should probably get on that. (I still want to read We Two: Victoria and Albert: Rulers, Partners, Rivals before the new Victoria miniseries in January though...)

[Jan C]

Bronwyn wrote: "Lynaia wrote: "I think a lot of the difference was because of the studio system back then and how they created and controlled the publicity and image for their stars. And social media has exaggerat..."

I'm still reading We Two.

[Jill]

I have to bow my head in shame since I am one of those members who "lurk" (I wish there was another term for that!!!). Being an assisting moderator on another huge group takes most of my time but I always look in here to see what is going on and read the great comments. I have several GR friends in this group whose opinions I admire so I am going to attempt to participate more

As someone else said about themselves, I am not much a group read person since I tend to read books that are not best sellers and appear obscure to most of my friends! I imagine I should expand my horizons re: reading material since this club reads some excellent books.

[Ally]

I've read through this thread with interest...sorry that I didn't respond to it earlier but Jennifer has done a great job in saying all of the things that I would have said!

I'm going to say something else that could be taken a couple of different ways...

We are the group, so it's a reflection of us.

If it's not what we want it to be then its up to us to be the change we want to see.

Having said that, I really love this group. The things I love most are...

* That our threads remain open long after the month of the group read itself and can be revisited at any time so that our members can fit their reading into their busy lives and comment whenever they are able.
* that there is room for lurkers...if our choices are interesting and provoke discussion I bet that there are lots of members, and others who look at our group without ever joining, who take pleasure in the reading but remain in the shadows.
* that our choices open our reading world to books that we might not normally come across. As a Brit, some of the choices from our US members have really inspired me. I also love it when we read about different continents, particularly our history of 'Empire' (the good and the bad).

Lets continue as we always have and embrace all comers, the shy and the confident alike.

[David]

Amen!

As I said when I joined I know a lot of stuff about our era which you can see on my website www.davidgarrettizzo.com. I would be happy to try and answer questions from all members.

For example: The model for Maugham's character Larry Darrell in The Razor's Edge is Gerald Heard who at the request of Bill Wilson of AA wrote 12 steps and 12 traditions, which makes Heard one of the most influential people of the 20th Century who is now mostly forgotten.